The Shadowrun Situation

[Username17]

Well . . wonder if it's a Two for one deal . . do you have to take the Battletech License with the Shadowrun License or the other way around?

No. No you do not.

-Username17

[Centurion13]

There are lines? Really? In this Forum there are lines?

I will stop saying it, out of respect for a fellow Pink Floyd fan, and because you "kindly" asked me to.

Not because there are lines when you want there to be, but no limits when it suits you.

We now take you back to regularly scheduled program, already in progress.

Clutch

Waitaminute... is this the same Clutch who used to be in charge of the Commandos? The Senior Chief in San Diego?

[Stahlseele]

Well . . wonder if it's a Two for one deal . . do you have to take the Battletech License with the Shadowrun License or the other way around?

No. No you do not.

-Username17

Then for fucks sake, let CGL die and give each license to another company so nobody can EVER AGAIN say one had some ill effect on the other . .
Battletech to some company that has experience with miniatures/wargaming and shadowrun maybe even to a new upstart that deals in rpg's mostly <.<

[Centurion13]

Not as crazy a thought as you'd hope. Structurally speaking, the Battletech freelancers are doing everything in their power to sink the line and destroy Battletech outright. Which isn't a lot, but then they are just freelance creative staff and they don't have a lot of power.

*snip*

Indeed, if you were to judge the actions of the BT Production squad merely on the basis of them being rational actors whose actions were chosen to advance their motives - you would be forced to conclude that their motivation was to make sure that Battletech sputters and dies. And yes, that's an entirely plausible outcome, and if it comes to pass it will be because of their great loyalty to Randall Bills - and not because of anything I did or did not do. The BT Freelancers were given every opportunity to be part of the solution, and they almost to a man elected to be part of the problem instead.

-Username17

Hum. Hmmm. You know, I am not a big fan of conspiracy theories. I think the vast majority of them are foisted on us by people who are paranoid and want to see patterns where there are none.

But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

I read this carefully and crossed it with stuff I have read elsewhere, and triangulated it further with what I know of fallen human nature, both past and present (press the ignore button, Cowlick!).

It's possible. Not only that; given the threat Bills made and his insider knowledge of the true state of IMR affairs, it's probable. This is probably the only way he could make good on his threat of taking the game down with him. And he has the right mindset for it - my way or no way, if I can't play then no one can.

The PDF mining of old material for quick profit, the racking up of debts, the stonewalling in public and in court - they are buying time and getting the license into ever deeper waters day by day.

Of course this is speculation. But it has a lot of backing and frankly (pardon the pun) the likelihood it is actually happening is pretty solid.

So my question is this: supposing this is what is going on? What can we do to prevent it? Or at least soften the impact?

Cent13

[magnuskn]

Not as crazy a thought as you'd hope. Structurally speaking, the Battletech freelancers are doing everything in their power to sink the line and destroy Battletech outright. Which isn't a lot, but then they are just freelance creative staff and they don't have a lot of power.

*snip*

Indeed, if you were to judge the actions of the BT Production squad merely on the basis of them being rational actors whose actions were chosen to advance their motives - you would be forced to conclude that their motivation was to make sure that Battletech sputters and dies. And yes, that's an entirely plausible outcome, and if it comes to pass it will be because of their great loyalty to Randall Bills - and not because of anything I did or did not do. The BT Freelancers were given every opportunity to be part of the solution, and they almost to a man elected to be part of the problem instead.

-Username17

Hum. Hmmm. You know, I am not a big fan of conspiracy theories. I think the vast majority of them are foisted on us by people who are paranoid and want to see patterns where there are none.

But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

I read this carefully and crossed it with stuff I have read elsewhere, and triangulated it further with what I know of fallen human nature, both past and present (press the ignore button, Cowlick!).

It's possible. Not only that; given the threat Bills made and his insider knowledge of the true state of IMR affairs, it's probable. This is probably the only way he could make good on his threat of taking the game down with him. And he has the right mindset for it - my way or no way, if I can't play then no one can.

The PDF mining of old material for quick profit, the racking up of debts, the stonewalling in public and in court - they are buying time and getting the license into ever deeper waters day by day.

Of course this is speculation. But it has a lot of backing and frankly (pardon the pun) the likelihood it is actually happening is pretty solid.

So my question is this: supposing this is what is going on? What can we do to prevent it? Or at least soften the impact?

Cent13

Pray that the upcoming Mechwarrior 5 renews interest enough that the license will be picked up, anyway.

And that the damned timeline gets reset to the middle point of Prince of Havoc ( BEFORE Taskforce Serpent returns to the Inner Sphere and things get incredibly silly. ). But that's just me and my utter hate for what happened afterwards.

[Taharqa]

This means that people insisting that IMR will get its shit together or casting doubt upon the evidence that IMR is folding are actually hurting those games.

...

People who cast doubt on my data and conclusions are structurally identical to people working to destroy Shadowrun.
-Username17

Its nice to see your "if you are not with me you are against me" attitude out in the open like that. Very enlightening.

Indeed, not only is such speech harmful to Shadowrun and Battletech, it's the only speech that could be harmful to Shadowrun and Batletech. The games survive because someone with a pile of investing capital is convinced that throwing in a bid to get the license is a good idea. If people cast doubt around it increases the chances that each individual company may "hold off" on making a bid or simply not make a bid at all. And if all the investors fail to make a bid, the game lines sputter out with IMR.

That makes no sense. An investor can just easily buy the license off of Topps if and when IMR/CGL sputters out and dies.

[Clutch9800]

This means that people insisting that IMR will get its shit together or casting doubt upon the evidence that IMR is folding are actually hurting those games.

Well,

I guess they can take the Frank out of America, but they can't take the America out of Frank.

"We have to destroy the village in order to save it."

That is a very American thing to say Frank. If memory serves, it's been said before.

I've seen David Lynch movies that make more sense than this place sometimes.

Clutch

[Stahlseele]

:hmph:

Not as crazy a thought as you'd hope. Structurally speaking, the Battletech freelancers are doing everything in their power to sink the line and destroy Battletech outright. Which isn't a lot, but then they are just freelance creative staff and they don't have a lot of power.

*snip*

Indeed, if you were to judge the actions of the BT Production squad merely on the basis of them being rational actors whose actions were chosen to advance their motives - you would be forced to conclude that their motivation was to make sure that Battletech sputters and dies. And yes, that's an entirely plausible outcome, and if it comes to pass it will be because of their great loyalty to Randall Bills - and not because of anything I did or did not do. The BT Freelancers were given every opportunity to be part of the solution, and they almost to a man elected to be part of the problem instead.

-Username17

Hum. Hmmm. You know, I am not a big fan of conspiracy theories. I think the vast majority of them are foisted on us by people who are paranoid and want to see patterns where there are none.

But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

I read this carefully and crossed it with stuff I have read elsewhere, and triangulated it further with what I know of fallen human nature, both past and present (press the ignore button, Cowlick!).

It's possible. Not only that; given the threat Bills made and his insider knowledge of the true state of IMR affairs, it's probable. This is probably the only way he could make good on his threat of taking the game down with him. And he has the right mindset for it - my way or no way, if I can't play then no one can.

The PDF mining of old material for quick profit, the racking up of debts, the stonewalling in public and in court - they are buying time and getting the license into ever deeper waters day by day.

Of course this is speculation. But it has a lot of backing and frankly (pardon the pun) the likelihood it is actually happening is pretty solid.

So my question is this: supposing this is what is going on? What can we do to prevent it? Or at least soften the impact?

Cent13

Pray that the upcoming Mechwarrior 5 renews interest enough that the license will be picked up, anyway.

And that the damned timeline gets reset to the middle point of Prince of Havoc ( BEFORE Taskforce Serpent returns to the Inner Sphere and things get incredibly silly. ). But that's just me and my utter hate for what happened afterwards.

It's not Mechwarrior 5, it's just the fifth game to hopefully carry the Title Mechwarrior.
It's a complete Reset of the Mechwarrior universe back to the first or second Succession War.
Also: yeah, i'm with you on the novels reset x.x

[magnuskn]

It's not Mechwarrior 5, it's just the fifth game to hopefully carry the Title Mechwarrior.
It's a complete Reset of the Mechwarrior universe back to the first or second Succession War.
Also: yeah, i'm with you on the novels reset x.x

Good point about MW "5". The reset to 3025 should be good and speak to the part of BattleTech fans who actively resent anything beyond level 1 tech.

So, did you play in the tournament at NordCon?

[Stahlseele]

Actually, it's 3015, not even 3025.
And no, i did not play. But 2 or maybe even 3 of my Buddies did.
I just watched and went and bought and brought stuff for them.
Alcohol and cigarretes mostly ^^

[Endovior]

I find it amusing that the trolls continue to attack the messenger, not the message. Frank's made a fairly solid case here about anything being good for IMR as being bad for the future of it's games... and the trolls are all like "nuuu, you can't say that kinda thing evar!!!!!!111"


Care to actually refute his argument, or do you really have nothing more substantive to argue then that?

[Maxus]

Care to actually refute his argument, or do you really have nothing more substantive to argue then that?

Well, Taharqa has somehow convinced himself that making roughly a million dollars disappear from a company's funds over three years is an honest mistake. I'm not sure what he thinks repeated failure to pay people who should have been paid is. His argument is that we're all badevil people for speculating on what's happening behind the curtain and the spin, and that we're both more stupid and morally bankrupt than the guy who's run his own company into the ground by taking so much money it can't pay its own bills.

(Not that he actually mans up and says those things straight. He's still very passive-aggressive. I figure he'll have his Elennsar breakthrough in the near future and start telling people to go suck a barrel of cocks.)

As I recall, he tried to construct an explanation which somehow means LLC isn't a thief and isn't being aided and abetted by a few other people close to him.

[Crissa]

Companies should live and die quickly. When they die slowly, licenses and such attached to them often die permanently. A company isn't a village. It isn't innocent, and putting it through bankruptcy doesn't kill people.

-Crissa

[magnuskn]

Companies should live and die quickly. When they die slowly, licenses and such attached to them often die permanently. A company isn't a village. It isn't innocent, and putting it through bankruptcy doesn't kill people.

-Crissa

Hey, as far as I know, the license for Werewolf: The Apocalypse computer games is still being held by a bankcrupt and long dead company. Although that could of course have changed by now, who knows with the people of White Wolf...

[Ganbare Gincun]

Well, Taharqa has somehow convinced himself that making roughly a million dollars disappear from a company's funds over three years is an honest mistake. I'm not sure what he thinks repeated failure to pay people who should have been paid is. His argument is that we're all badevil people for speculating on what's happening behind the curtain and the spin, and that we're both more stupid and morally bankrupt than the guy who's run his own company into the ground by taking so much money it can't pay its own bills.

Maybe he works on Wall Street?

[Crissa]

Hey, as far as I know, the license for Werewolf: The Apocalypse computer games is still being held by a bankcrupt and long dead company. Although that could of course have changed by now, who knows with the people of White Wolf...

Well, no profit potential was shown, so who'd spend the money to get them out? And the game isn't selling so well now. Bam bam, you're dead, mister license.

It took twenty-odd years for Marvel to get the movie franchises back; and they knew they could make money with that stuff.

-Crissa

[Username17]

So IMR predictably released digital copies of corp guide (with the rewrites of AH's material, obviously). They also announced that you could buy preorders of the physical book. I would strongly council everyone to not do that. IMR hasn't sent anything to be printed for three months, and don't seem to be in any danger of starting now. Their printer that they used for Vice isn't the same printer that they used for the Limited Edition or their recent Battletech work. And conspicuously - it's a printer that requires only half the money up front.

IMR is seriously behind on their printer's bills, and I don't think they are likely to suddenly make everything OK again. People had to wait more than 14 moths to get their limited editions, no guaranty at all that a pre-order of Corp Guide won't take that long or vaporware out entirely.

-Username17

[Starmaker]

So IMR predictably released digital copies of corp guide (with the rewrites of AH's material, obviously surprisingly).

Fixed.

[Clutch9800]

I find it amusing that the trolls continue to attack the messenger, not the message. Frank's made a fairly solid case here about anything being good for IMR as being bad for the future of it's games... and the trolls are all like "nuuu, you can't say that kinda thing evar!!!!!!111"


Care to actually refute his argument, or do you really have nothing more substantive to argue then that?

I'm not here to refute Franks argument, but I will give you my thoughts.

If (when) IMR goes T.U. both lines will get snapped up almost immediatly. They will because of the equity that each has. These aren't start up i.p.'s, they are established, with a solid history and a steady revenue stream. Any investor that does the due dillegence will see that pretty quickly. Remember, a couple of years back Topps was ready to sell off the i.p.'s lock, stock, and barrel. I've never got a satisfactory answer to the question of why the sale didn't ever go through. It could have been that the offers didn't match Topps expectations, or Topps felt that they could do better by holding onto the properties, continuing to build equity while licensing them out. Honestly, it seems that either case bodes well for the viability of the properties.

That said, the fact of the matter, is that three, (four if you count Wizkids) companies have gone under while having these "sure bets" in thier stable.

I've always thought that you'd have to be a blue-butted baboon to lose money with Shadowrun and BattleTech, but people keep doing it.

Anyway, my main worry is getting the retailers back onboard. It is next to impossible to convince a lot of Game Store owners that a property isn't dead, once they get it in thier head that it is. "I can special order it for you if you'd like." is the death knell to a sale. Game Store owners are almost invariably gamers first, business persons second. They are as susceptable to the rumor mill and gamer drama as any other.

When I was involved, my main focus of operations was convincing not the fans, but the retailers that the lines had survived the demise of FASA and were still strong and could bring money right into thier stores. That's why I demanded that folks establish a working relationship with thier local retailer and run games in thier stores as often as possible. Seeing a game played in the store, and people enjoying it, and new people looking for the books or miniatures, but walking away dissapointed because the clerk said they could "special order it for them" was the way I saw to get the retailers to stock the line. My marketing philosophy was events and demos in Game Stores first, convention events a way distant second. Spending a bunch of money on Origins and GenCon and then absolutely ignoring local marketing the other 357 days of the year was, is, and always will be dumber than a bag of hammers. But you know where it got me? Humiliationville, Pop-u-la-tion ONE!

Anyway, here's what I think is going on. I agree that they are cranking out PDF's as fast as possible to generate quick revenue. I don't however, think that said money is going straight into thier pockets. I think they plan on paying off every swinging johnson that has leverage over them as soon as possible, and then giving as much as possible to Topps so that whoever is in charge of this can take a treasure bath. Not necessarily in that order. The fight right now is to retain the licenses. If they can do that, then maybe they can claw thier way out of this and get back to actually printing product.

They aren't going to give up without a fight. Bear in mind that Randall Bills has been in charge of BattleTech since the late FASA days. With all the crap that he's been through, I'm not sure he psychologically capable of letting go without a fight, but I'm sure he won't burn the line down rather than see it go.

In all candor, BattleTech being out of his life would probably be the best thing that ever happened to the man, but that's just an observation.

In summation to a long winded post. No matter what happens, I don't see either property in danger.

Clutch

[Blasted]

If (when) IMR goes T.U. both lines will get snapped up almost immediatly. They will because of the equity that each has. These aren't start up i.p.'s, they are established, with a solid history and a steady revenue stream. Any investor that does the due dillegence will see that pretty quickly.

While I can see the licenses going quickly, IMR itself would be a foolish thing to purchase. It's got significant debt and if you picked up the license, the only possible purchaser for its assets would be.... you.
Better to let it go broke and pick up the remains at a bargain price.

Conversley, if you did purchase IMR, but failed to secure the licenses, you've just flushed that equity the fast way.

Remember, a couple of years back Topps was ready to sell off the i.p.'s lock, stock, and barrel. I've never got a satisfactory answer to the question of why the sale didn't ever go through. It could have been that the offers didn't match Topps expectations, or Topps felt that they could do better by holding onto the properties, continuing to build equity while licensing them out.

These are not mutually exclusive, indeed both together are the short and simple business description for a number of ip licensing firms.

Anyway, my main worry is getting the retailers back onboard. It is next to impossible to convince a lot of Game Store owners that a property isn't dead, once they get it in thier head that it is. "I can special order it for you if you'd like." is the death knell to a sale. Game Store owners are almost invariably gamers first, business persons second. They are as susceptable to the rumor mill and gamer drama as any other.

I think Shadowrun is in a better position than battletech here. There are less materials to stock, it still has some cachet with RPGers and I think that the current proposition is better.
Given that the plan for battletech is to entice lapsed players back, I think that it could be difficult to sell. Especially once those players realize that the game is (almost) exactly the same, with the same '80s mechanics and artwork (whose idea was it to stock the intro box with the ugliest designs from the past?)

They aren't going to give up without a fight. Bear in mind that Randall Bills has been in charge of BattleTech since the late FASA days. With all the crap that he's been through, I'm not sure he psychologically capable of letting go without a fight, but I'm sure he won't burn the line down rather than see it go.

Still, what they need is money, what they lack is money and the money they did have was sunk into a house from which it may never emerge.

[Stahlseele]

(whose idea was it to stock the intro box with the ugliest designs from the past?)

If they had been able to do boxes with the complete unseen set of Machines, they would not have been able to make enough boxes to meet demand i guess . .

[magnuskn]

Hey, as far as I know, the license for Werewolf: The Apocalypse computer games is still being held by a bankcrupt and long dead company. Although that could of course have changed by now, who knows with the people of White Wolf...

Well, no profit potential was shown, so who'd spend the money to get them out? And the game isn't selling so well now. Bam bam, you're dead, mister license.

It took twenty-odd years for Marvel to get the movie franchises back; and they knew they could make money with that stuff.

-Crissa

Eh, since the WtA setting was really well done, I think you'd get a much better received product than with the abominable WtF. But I guess that's neither here nor there. <sigh> An oWoD MMO would have been fantastic, I think.

[Blasted]

If they had been able to do boxes with the complete unseen set of Machines, they would not have been able to make enough boxes to meet demand i guess . .

Most of the 'reseens' were of reasonable quality, the box is decorated with them! Many of the 'older' designs from 3075 would have been ok, but the best thing to do would have been to reimagine the ones which make viewers physically sick.

All of the modern games have really spiffy miniatures and spend a great deal of effort on presentation. Battletech stands out like a sore thumb, it really does.

Not that this would be a panacea, of course, but it's just another hurdle battletech puts in front of purchasers that needs to be removed.

[Stahlseele]

Well, judging from me and my buddies, we'd pay 15-20€ per unseen model we can get . . And most of us don't like the newer machines either . .

[mean_liar]

There are lines? Really? In this Forum there are lines?

This is news to me as well.

Killing, raping, internet, etc.