OH MY GOD WE'RE BURNING THE KORAN [Politics]

[For Valor]

Thank you, Terry Jones.

What a great guy. Expressing his beliefs without causing too much violence. In other news, this dude's gotta have some serious balls. He's probably recieved an assload of death threats.

I don't care whether you think it's a good idea or not, but what do you think the aftermath will be?

Discuss.

[Zinegata]

Seriously? WTF?

People should really just ignore this real life troll. This lunatic's church is about to die anyway with the bank about to foreclose this guy's ass.

[Maj]

Mr. Jones, in a lengthy interview at his church, said he sincerely hoped that his planned Koran-burning would not lead to violence.

OK. Here's what I don't get.

If people like this - who believe that Islam is evil, trying to take us over, and violent - do stuff that shits on Islam, how can they possibly be so stupid to think that violence will not happen? Unless they don't actually think violence will happen - in which case, Muslims are not the violent perps they are proclaimed to be.

They have to be fully aware that what they are doing will lead to violence - especially after the whole cartoon debacle. They have to know that this is going to result in nothing but suck.

Terry Jones - and people like him - are deliberately and knowingly inciting to riot. And it doesn't matter if it's Biblicists that are being urged to believe that Islam is evil and they need to go firebomb another mosque, or Muslims who are retaliating against perceived blasphemy (or both). It's fucking ugly.

[Psychic Robot]

I don't care whether you think it's a good idea or not, but what do you think the aftermath will be?

Muslims: trolled.
Innocent civilians: trolled hard by suicide bombers.

[Zinegata]

Of course he knows he's inciting violence. That's the point - it's a lame way to get free publicity so he can get more donations from other fellow anti-Islam lunatics so he can save his Church from foreclosure.

Which is why the best response to a bigot like this is simple. Tell him that yes, we've heard your point. Now we will turn our back on you. And do not ever open your filthy mouth ever again.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

It'd be nice if that could happen, but we Americans are notorious for paying attention to frivolous things.

[Vnonymous]

If somebody receives death threats for insulting a religion in public, it isn't the person doing the insulting that has something wrong with them.

[virgil]

As opposed to the Muslims who receive death threats just for existing? It's the hypocrisy that I'm disappointed with, as I suspect that the preacher (and those like him) condones such behavior.

EDIT: I like how he's garnered a grand total of $1k by the time of that article, which is pocket change in the face of foreclosure costs. But with the size of his congregation & the number of donations (both in money and Korans), this is really just too small to deserve any more publicity than the article itself.

[Sir Neil]

"If people like this - who believe that Islam is evil, trying to take us over, and violent - do stuff that shits on Islam, how can they possibly be so stupid to think that violence will not happen?"

He said he 'hoped' it wouldn't, not that he 'thought' it wouldn't. Perhaps he thinks that God will open their eyes; allow them to realize the proper response to blashphemy isn't "going apeshit & murderizing"?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

If a imam burned a bible in America he'd be lynched within three seconds of announcing his intentions.

[Vnonymous]

Muslims don't receive death threats for "just existing". Being a muslim isn't something you're born into - its' a choice you make, and making that choice brings with it consequences. When you sign up to be a muslim you endorse the woman-hating, the ridiculous alcohol prohibitions and the various other atrocities in Islam.

White supremacists get death threats for "just existing" too but nobody really sees that as too bad a thing. An ideology is something that you accept and understand, not something that you're born into. Hating somebody because they were born in Albania is dumb, but hating somebody because they ascribe to a belief system which actively discriminates against people is nothing like that.

[RobbyPants]

What a great guy. Expressing his beliefs without causing too much violence. In other news, this dude's gotta have some serious balls. He's probably recieved an assload of death threats.

He already has. He's been asked not to because of the expected aftermath.

This is a blatant attempt to spread more hatred and incite anger, all shielded behind freedom of speech. The thing that gets me is that the whole idea of spreading anger for anger's sake is about as un-Christian as you can get, and this is being headed by a church. They probably don't see this as a problem because they think the whole love-your-neighbor thing doesn't apply to people of other religions or something.

If a imam burned a bible in America he'd be lynched within three seconds of announcing his intentions.

Yeah, the double standard here is crazy like that. It's stuff like this that keeps me from reading the comments on any news link I find.

[PhoneLobster]

Oh hi.

Being a muslim isn't something you're born into

So then you clearly don't know how religion works in practice at all then do you?

Because really being born into it IS the way most people "choose" their religions.

Sure, technically we are all born atheists. But in practice that is NOT the case.

(edit: hell, in practice the people behind events like this and the anti "ground zero mosque" rioting don't even differentiate between a born Muslim, a Muslim by choice, their own Christian president or a non-Muslim brown skinned construction worker who happens to be wearing a beanie)

When you sign up to be a muslim you endorse the woman-hating, the ridiculous alcohol prohibitions and the various other atrocities in Islam.

And Christians do all of that and more just as much and just as bad too. As do several other major faiths. Woman hating and various random "ridiculous" prohibitions are basically a requirement of joining the major religion club.

By singling out Muslims specifically as if they are doing something special you are being somewhat of an ass.

Do you know how the worst of hard line Muslim bastards get their way when it comes to things like UN women's rights resolutions? They vote as a block with Catholics.

And as another side to the same coin there have been and are Muslim cultures that have been forward looking tolerant and far in advance of the drooling mass of ignorant hatred that is consuming the USA. Well, the white bit of the USA that is thankfully becoming a minority.

Anyway. Long story short. Burning the Koran is or shouldn't be a big deal. I'd burn it and a bible together to keep warm any day. But this isn't about keeping warm and the motives of the individuals behind this event are as slimy and two faced as can possibly be.

So screw the implications, the motives and justifications are horrible enough as it is.

[A Hammer]

Muslims don't receive death threats for "just existing". Being a muslim isn't something you're born into - its' a choice you make, and making that choice brings with it consequences. When you sign up to be a muslim you endorse the woman-hating, the ridiculous alcohol prohibitions and the various other atrocities in Islam.

Clearly the most sensible way to act in this situation is to threaten all muslims with execution unless they deconvert. Yyyyyyyep.

[Vnonymous]

PhoneLobster -
I never said that I was a christian or a catholic. So what if muslim nations vote in a block with the Catholics? I'm not defending them at all and bringing them up is disngenuous. I'm not singling out muslims, either - this is a topic about Islam, so I'm talking about Islam. I could just as easily say that because you didn't bring up the Khmer Rouge you're singling out Christians for critcism.

As to them being born into it, they are still going to have the power to make a choice. Christians have "woken up" and become apostates, as have muslims. If you rape women because that's what you've done since you grew up and that's what your culture does, that doesn't make it any better.

A Hammer - if I had said that, then you would be right to mock me for it. I suggested, however, that muslims stop taking offence at blasphemy, which is a far cry from threatening them with execution unless they deconvert.

[Kaelik]

It's funny because PL thinks that Hispanic Catholics who are born into it and can't escape will be more enlightened than those evil whities.

PL is a funny guy that way.

[angelfromanotherpin]

The anti-Muslim sentiment after the attack on 9/11 is retarded. It's like holding a grudge against Christians after the attack on Fort Sumter. The people who attacked us were members of a religion, but they did not and could notact as representatives of their entire religion, and more to the point, their religion was not why they attacked us; they had specific political grievances and goals.

All this flim-flam which attempts to cast Afghanistan, and Iraq, and Pakistan, and Iran, as some sort of fight against the Muslim faith is exactly that: flim-flam. It's a simplistic distraction from the more complicated and morally grey issues at the heart of the matter.

They are trying to take a situation where the U.S. props up the house of Al Saud's inexpressibly repressive and unpopular regime, where the U.S. cluster-bombs weddings in Afghanistan, where the U.S. destroyed Iraqi civilization on false pretenses... and turn it into the Song of Roland. If anyone falls for that, they will be part of the problem until they stop falling for it.

[virgil]

Muslims don't receive death threats for "just existing". Being a muslim isn't something you're born into - its' a choice you make, and making that choice brings with it consequences. When you sign up to be a muslim you endorse the woman-hating, the ridiculous alcohol prohibitions and the various other atrocities in Islam.

PhoneLobster has it pretty well covered. One can be a Muslim and denounce the abhorrent behavior, and still get the death threats. One can be born with a name that sounds Muslim, without ever being of the faith, and get death threats. One can do so much as be brown-skinned, and get death threats. So, yeah, I can claim people are getting Muslim-related death threats for just existing.

There is a difference between receiving vitriol from others because of your own actions and words (such as this preacher), and because of the words and actions by somebody that an uninformed outsider would implicitly associate you with (same congregation, faith, culture, naming convention, or skin-color...).

[CatharzGodfoot]

Of course he knows he's inciting violence. That's the point - it's a lame way to get free publicity so he can get more donations from other fellow anti-Islam lunatics so he can save his Church from foreclosure.

This needs to be made into an animated Disney film. I'm sure Terry Jones will make a great princess.

[Maxus]

There's an article I saw recently--and I wish I could find it--was a timeline that brings up how modern Islamic extremism is a response to the crap deal the Islamic countries got in the first half of of the 1900's. And it's pretty modern.

For centuries, they'd been doing pretty well, but they hadn't been paying attention, hadn't developed much of a middle class or kept up with technology very much. So, from their point of view, the other nations kicked their ass after coming out of nowhere, and then they basically lost Palestine and it was given to the Jews.

Some groups decided this obvious disfavor of God was the result of backsliding, and it was time to tighten up. The Taliban is new. You can find 70-year-old men in Afghanistan who tell their grandchildren how much better the Good Old Days were because men and women were allowed to go parties together.

And the same is true for pretty much the rest of the really extreme groups.

[Kaelik]

The anti-Muslim sentiment after the attack on 9/11 is retarded. It's like holding a grudge against Christians after the attack on Fort Sumter. The people who attacked us were members of a religion, but they did not and could notact as representatives of their entire religion, and more to the point, their religion was not why they attacked us; they had specific political grievances and goals.

They have political grievances that are indistinguishable from religious ones.

They recruit by talking about religion, they declare war by talking about religion, they dress quite literally every single statement of intent in a cloak of religion. If your politics is your religion, or your religion is your politics, then it's not actually going to be beaten without being addressed on both angles.

One way to do that is to show that their religion doesn't say those things, and to stop shitting on their countries. This is difficult because their religion actually does say those things.

Another method is to stop shitting on those countries, and to also tell them their religion is false.

That's harder in some ways, but it at least has the advantage of being true.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The anti-Muslim sentiment after the attack on 9/11 is retarded. It's like holding a grudge against Christians after the attack on Fort Sumter. The people who attacked us were members of a religion, but they did not and could notact as representatives of their entire religion, and more to the point, their religion was not why they attacked us; they had specific political grievances and goals.

They have political grievances that are indistinguishable from religious ones.

They recruit by talking about religion, they declare war by talking about religion, they dress quite literally every single statement of intent in a cloak of religion. If your politics is your religion, or your religion is your politics, then it's not actually going to be beaten without being addressed on both angles.

Any religious group at war will claim that god is on their side. Whether it's the British going to war against the Americans, the British at war against the Zulu, the Israelis against the Palestinians, or whoever.

One way to do that is to show that their religion doesn't say those things, and to stop shitting on their countries. This is difficult because their religion actually does say those things.

Another method is to stop shitting on those countries, and to also tell them their religion is false.

That's harder in some ways, but it at least has the advantage of being true.

Let she who is without religious bias cast the first stone.

[Meikle641]

There's an article I saw recently--and I wish I could find it--was a timeline that brings up how modern Islamic extremism is a response to the crap deal the Islamic countries got in the first half of of the 1900's. And it's pretty modern.

I think it was an article on Cracked, but I'd have to track it down.

[Kaelik]

Any religious group at war will claim that god is on their side. Whether it's the British going to war against the Americans, the British at war against the Zulu, the Israelis against the Palestinians, or whoever.

They don't just claim that god is on their side though.

The US rational for Iraq was "They have nuclear weapons, and will foolishly use them."

Bin Laden claims that the reason 9/11 was perpetrated is because "God Hates the US."

You don't have to convince people that God isn't on their side for them to oppose Iraq.

You do have to convince Muslims that Allah doesn't hate the US for them to oppose Bin Laden.

Therefore, religion and what it has to say about America is inextricably linked to the conflict.

Let she who is without religious bias cast the first stone.

1) Being not religious, I don't have to adhere to random sayings unless they make sense. And that one doesn't, because it's a fucking retarded ass nirvana fallacy. If only perfect people are allowed to criticize people who beat their wives for walking outside with their face showing, then we will never stop the wife beaters.

2) As someone without religious bias, I specifically cast stones at religion. So there you go. Now that I've thrown the first stone, can we actually start trying to oppose harmful aspects of religion like wife confinement or opposition to abortion?

[Prak]

Mr. Jones, in a lengthy interview at his church, said he sincerely hoped that his planned Koran-burning would not lead to violence.

OK. Here's what I don't get.

If people like this - who believe that Islam is evil, trying to take us over, and violent - do stuff that shits on Islam, how can they possibly be so stupid to think that violence will not happen? Unless they don't actually think violence will happen - in which case, Muslims are not the violent perps they are proclaimed to be.

They have to be fully aware that what they are doing will lead to violence - especially after the whole cartoon debacle. They have to know that this is going to result in nothing but suck.

Terry Jones - and people like him - are deliberately and knowingly inciting to riot. And it doesn't matter if it's Biblicists that are being urged to believe that Islam is evil and they need to go firebomb another mosque, or Muslims who are retaliating against perceived blasphemy (or both). It's fucking ugly.

I would love to see his reaction to someone burning bibles in rememberance of the crusades, or the priest scandals, or various anti-abortion killings.