Pathfinder: the Lowdown

Archmage · Post by **Archmage** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:32 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:The thing is that for all their bitching about the uselessness of "theory craft" - the reality is that it's the only thing that makes any difference at all. They ask for tales from the table because they don't have to listen to them.

tl;dr version of Frank: Paizo doesn't actually want player input on design issues, they just want to pretend they do because it makes them look good on paper.

malak · Post by **malak** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:52 pm

Archmage wrote:Paizo doesn't actually want player input on design issues, they just want to pretend they do because it is free advertisement .

fixed.

Archmage · Post by **Archmage** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:57 pm

I don't really read the websites for WotC/Paizo/anybody else, so the entirety of game advertisement I encounter is due to word of mouth. The way I figure, "making yourself look good" to the gamer crowd is advertisement. But yes, feel free to make it more explicit.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:01 pm

Bulmahn is actually right that the theoretical math posts don't contribute anything, but that's because the Paizils are convinced that anything that Bulmahn shits out is golden.

Archmage · Post by **Archmage** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:16 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:Bulmahn is actually right that the theoretical math posts don't contribute anything, but that's because the Paizils are convinced that anything that Bulmahn shits out is golden.

There are actually a decent number of people in that thread and others like it that are providing criticism, albeit light criticism. You can argue that those people are posting on the Paizo forum but aren't "Paizils," though you have kind of a self-fulfilling No-True-Scotsman there.

Granted, the majority of the criticism is completely stupid and the people who are defending the design decisions are even stupider, but I don't think it's fair to say everyone on the PF forum is constantly fellating Bulmahn.

Wyzzard · Post by **Wyzzard** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:32 pm

Hey there all,

It seems that every time we have a playtest there needs to be a lengthy and largely pointless thread performing hypothetical comparisons of the class to other classes (who have different goals and talents) or to single monsters without group support (which is not how the game itself is played).

While useful for a bit, these threads are ultimately not all that productive. They are certainly not as useful as actual playtest data. They almost always devolve in to bickering and trolling.

This one has run it's course. Do not start another

This thread is locked.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Case in point, I suppose.

Although I wonder what "different goals and talents" could possibly be. Auto-Euthanasia?

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:54 pm

Well the Magus' goal is to try and do two things and fail at both of them. That's different from the Fighter's goal of trying to do a single thing and failing at it. It's also different from the Wizard's goal of making everyone his harem bitch and succeeding.

K · Post by K » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:54 pm

malak wrote:
Archmage wrote:Paizo doesn't actually want player input on design issues, they just want to pretend they do because it is free advertisement .
fixed.

Actually, he seems to want to people to give him ideas that he can take as his own without giving credit. He's crowd-sourcing design to cover his own failings as a designer.

Whatever. People who have been playing the game for years can look at a class and tell you when something will work or not work based on their own experience and attempts at doing the same. Since it seems he can't do that, I don't expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long.

But then again, he just might. It's not like there are a lot of potential designers living within driving distance of Paizo's offices.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:00 pm

Those Paizils are really riled up. Apparently us Denners are the root of all evil, and they're on a witch hunt for us.

And according to them I'm already over there. That's news to me.

I guess I'm turning into Frank, where they see me in the shadows every which way they turn. Lurking the Paizils is fun.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:15 pm

Wow. Pathfinder has it's own TV Trope. There's really nothing worth reading in there, though. They talk mostly about the setting and not the rules.

Datawolf · Post by **Datawolf** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:46 pm

RobbyPants wrote:Wow. Pathfinder has it's own TV Trope. There's really nothing worth reading in there, though. They talk mostly about the setting and not the rules.

Probably because they don't want a flame war on the article page.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:56 pm

RobbyPants wrote:Wow. Pathfinder has it's own TV Trope. There's really nothing worth reading in there, though. They talk mostly about the setting and not the rules.

Doesn't sound more than half bad, and there is mention of the caster/noncaster issue.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:07 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
RobbyPants wrote:Wow. Pathfinder has it's own TV Trope. There's really nothing worth reading in there, though. They talk mostly about the setting and not the rules.
Doesn't sound more than half bad, and there is mention of the caster/noncaster issue.

Which might or might not have been there before that page was linked here.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:12 pm

Roy wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:Doesn't sound more than half bad, and there is mention of the caster/noncaster issue.
Which might or might not have been there before that page was linked here.

It was, though only for an hour it seems (3 1/2 hours as of this post). Do I foresee an edit war?

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:00 pm

K wrote:Whatever. People who have been playing the game for years can look at a class and tell you when something will work or not work based on their own experience and attempts at doing the same. Since it seems he can't do that, I don't expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long.

Since when has "K thinks it's well-designed" been a prerequisite for a successful game?

K · Post by K » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:36 pm

hogarth wrote:
K wrote:Whatever. People who have been playing the game for years can look at a class and tell you when something will work or not work based on their own experience and attempts at doing the same. Since it seems he can't do that, I don't expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long.
Since when has "K thinks it's well-designed" been a prerequisite for a successful game?

I don't even know what this comment is supposed to accomplish.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:53 pm

K wrote:
hogarth wrote:
K wrote:Whatever. People who have been playing the game for years can look at a class and tell you when something will work or not work based on their own experience and attempts at doing the same. Since it seems he can't do that, I don't expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long.
Since when has "K thinks it's well-designed" been a prerequisite for a successful game?
I don't even know what this comment is supposed to accomplish.

Why do you not "expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long"? What does being a good designer have to do with being an employed designer?

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:26 am

If anything sometimes it seems like those things are inversely related.

K · Post by K » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:11 am

hogarth wrote:
K wrote: I don't even know what this comment is supposed to accomplish.
Why do you not "expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long"? What does being a good designer have to do with being an employed designer?

People pay for designers because, good or bad, they bring new ideas to the game. Jason B. is not doing that.... like, at all.

I mean, look at the Magus. It's like someone looked at the old Bladesinger, Eldritch Knight, Spellsword and strangely enough the Kensai and then cherry-picked some stuff, then got cold feet and decided to drop the power level considerably on concepts that were subpar to begin with. There aren't any actually new ideas there at all.

And it's going to come to people's attention that if you want someone to just recycle the ideas from 3e, you can throw a stone at a convention and hit 4-5 guys you wouldn't mind sharing an office with who can do that, but going with a new one periodically means they'll value a different set of ideas from 3e and maybe use a better subset.

But I don't know what Paizo's long-term business plan is. They might just be willing to suck on 3e's leavings and keep their buddies employed, and in that case JB has a job for as long that the downward spiral lasts. In that scenario, Jason can just keep stealing ideas from 3e and from random people on gaming boards indefinitely.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:19 am

Given that Bulmahn was employed at Paizo long before Pathfinder, I have a feeling that Pathfinder's success or failure will not seriously affect his employment status.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:44 am

Psychic Robot wrote:Given that Bulmahn was employed at Paizo long before Pathfinder, I have a feeling that Pathfinder's success or failure will not seriously affect his employment status.

Bingo.

I think it's more likely that Paizo runs out of ideas long before Jason would be fired.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:22 pm

Quantumboost wrote:
Roy wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:Doesn't sound more than half bad, and there is mention of the caster/noncaster issue.
Which might or might not have been there before that page was linked here.
It was, though only for an hour it seems (3 1/2 hours as of this post). Do I foresee an edit war?

Still looks there to me. It was removed?

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:35 pm

K wrote:I mean, look at the Magus. It's like someone looked at the old Bladesinger, Eldritch Knight, Spellsword and strangely enough the Kensai and then cherry-picked some stuff, then got cold feet and decided to drop the power level considerably on concepts that were subpar to begin with. There aren't any actually new ideas there at all.

It's a new idea. It's a guy who dual-wields with spells in one hand and a weapon in the other, and that really hasn't been done before. I'm wondering who exactly wanted that and why it's a good idea to start out with the penalties (bad BAB, bad spellcasting, numeric penalties to everything) and try and use that as a framework, but it is a new idea after a fashion.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:42 pm

A Man In Black wrote:
K wrote:I mean, look at the Magus. It's like someone looked at the old Bladesinger, Eldritch Knight, Spellsword and strangely enough the Kensai and then cherry-picked some stuff, then got cold feet and decided to drop the power level considerably on concepts that were subpar to begin with. There aren't any actually new ideas there at all.
It's a new idea. It's a guy who dual-wields with spells in one hand and a weapon in the other, and that really hasn't been done before. I'm wondering who exactly wanted that and why it's a good idea to start out with the penalties (bad BAB, bad spellcasting, numeric penalties to everything) and try and use that as a framework, but it is a new idea after a fashion.

But there was already the Blade Singer, the Duskblade, the Spellsword, and the Eldritch Knight. I really don't see what the new idea is.

-Username17

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:04 pm

A Man In Black wrote: It's a new idea. It's a guy who dual-wields with spells in one hand and a weapon in the other, and that really hasn't been done before.

This was actually explicitly the flavor of the Bladesinger from the 2e Complete Book of Elves and followed through to at least the first Bladesinger prestige class in 3.0.