tl;dr version of Frank: Paizo doesn't actually want player input on design issues, they just want to pretend they do because it makes them look good on paper.FrankTrollman wrote:The thing is that for all their bitching about the uselessness of "theory craft" - the reality is that it's the only thing that makes any difference at all. They ask for tales from the table because they don't have to listen to them.
Pathfinder: the Lowdown
Moderator: Moderators
P.C. Hodgell wrote:That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
shadzar wrote:i think the apostrophe is an outdated idea such as is hyphenation.
I don't really read the websites for WotC/Paizo/anybody else, so the entirety of game advertisement I encounter is due to word of mouth. The way I figure, "making yourself look good" to the gamer crowd is advertisement. But yes, feel free to make it more explicit.
P.C. Hodgell wrote:That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
shadzar wrote:i think the apostrophe is an outdated idea such as is hyphenation.
- Psychic Robot
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Bulmahn is actually right that the theoretical math posts don't contribute anything, but that's because the Paizils are convinced that anything that Bulmahn shits out is golden.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:You do not seem to do anything.Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
There are actually a decent number of people in that thread and others like it that are providing criticism, albeit light criticism. You can argue that those people are posting on the Paizo forum but aren't "Paizils," though you have kind of a self-fulfilling No-True-Scotsman there.Psychic Robot wrote:Bulmahn is actually right that the theoretical math posts don't contribute anything, but that's because the Paizils are convinced that anything that Bulmahn shits out is golden.
Granted, the majority of the criticism is completely stupid and the people who are defending the design decisions are even stupider, but I don't think it's fair to say everyone on the PF forum is constantly fellating Bulmahn.
P.C. Hodgell wrote:That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
shadzar wrote:i think the apostrophe is an outdated idea such as is hyphenation.
Case in point, I suppose.Hey there all,
It seems that every time we have a playtest there needs to be a lengthy and largely pointless thread performing hypothetical comparisons of the class to other classes (who have different goals and talents) or to single monsters without group support (which is not how the game itself is played).
While useful for a bit, these threads are ultimately not all that productive. They are certainly not as useful as actual playtest data. They almost always devolve in to bickering and trolling.
This one has run it's course. Do not start another
This thread is locked.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Although I wonder what "different goals and talents" could possibly be. Auto-Euthanasia?
Well the Magus' goal is to try and do two things and fail at both of them. That's different from the Fighter's goal of trying to do a single thing and failing at it. It's also different from the Wizard's goal of making everyone his harem bitch and succeeding.
Draco_Argentum wrote:Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.
Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
Actually, he seems to want to people to give him ideas that he can take as his own without giving credit. He's crowd-sourcing design to cover his own failings as a designer.malak wrote:fixed.Archmage wrote:Paizo doesn't actually want player input on design issues, they just want to pretend they do because it is free advertisement .
Whatever. People who have been playing the game for years can look at a class and tell you when something will work or not work based on their own experience and attempts at doing the same. Since it seems he can't do that, I don't expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long.
But then again, he just might. It's not like there are a lot of potential designers living within driving distance of Paizo's offices.
Those Paizils are really riled up. Apparently us Denners are the root of all evil, and they're on a witch hunt for us.
And according to them I'm already over there. That's news to me.
I guess I'm turning into Frank, where they see me in the shadows every which way they turn. Lurking the Paizils is fun.
And according to them I'm already over there. That's news to me.
I guess I'm turning into Frank, where they see me in the shadows every which way they turn. Lurking the Paizils is fun.
Last edited by Roy on Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Draco_Argentum wrote:Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.
Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
- RobbyPants
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Wow. Pathfinder has it's own TV Trope. There's really nothing worth reading in there, though. They talk mostly about the setting and not the rules.
- CatharzGodfoot
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Doesn't sound more than half bad, and there is mention of the caster/noncaster issue.RobbyPants wrote:Wow. Pathfinder has it's own TV Trope. There's really nothing worth reading in there, though. They talk mostly about the setting and not the rules.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
Which might or might not have been there before that page was linked here.CatharzGodfoot wrote:Doesn't sound more than half bad, and there is mention of the caster/noncaster issue.RobbyPants wrote:Wow. Pathfinder has it's own TV Trope. There's really nothing worth reading in there, though. They talk mostly about the setting and not the rules.
Draco_Argentum wrote:Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.
Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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- Knight-Baron
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Since when has "K thinks it's well-designed" been a prerequisite for a successful game?K wrote:Whatever. People who have been playing the game for years can look at a class and tell you when something will work or not work based on their own experience and attempts at doing the same. Since it seems he can't do that, I don't expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long.
I don't even know what this comment is supposed to accomplish.hogarth wrote:Since when has "K thinks it's well-designed" been a prerequisite for a successful game?K wrote:Whatever. People who have been playing the game for years can look at a class and tell you when something will work or not work based on their own experience and attempts at doing the same. Since it seems he can't do that, I don't expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long.
Why do you not "expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long"? What does being a good designer have to do with being an employed designer?K wrote:I don't even know what this comment is supposed to accomplish.hogarth wrote:Since when has "K thinks it's well-designed" been a prerequisite for a successful game?K wrote:Whatever. People who have been playing the game for years can look at a class and tell you when something will work or not work based on their own experience and attempts at doing the same. Since it seems he can't do that, I don't expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long.
Last edited by hogarth on Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If anything sometimes it seems like those things are inversely related.
For a minute, I used to be "a guy" in the TTRPG "industry". Now I'm just a nobody. For the most part, it's a relief.
Trank Frollman wrote:One of the reasons we can say insightful things about stuff is that we don't have to pretend to be nice to people. By embracing active aggression, we eliminate much of the passive aggression that so paralyzes things on other gaming forums.
hogarth wrote:As the good book saith, let he who is without boners cast the first stone.
TiaC wrote:I'm not quite sure why this is an argument. (Except that Kaelik is in it, that's a good reason.)
People pay for designers because, good or bad, they bring new ideas to the game. Jason B. is not doing that.... like, at all.hogarth wrote:Why do you not "expect he'll stay Lead Designer for that long"? What does being a good designer have to do with being an employed designer?K wrote: I don't even know what this comment is supposed to accomplish.
I mean, look at the Magus. It's like someone looked at the old Bladesinger, Eldritch Knight, Spellsword and strangely enough the Kensai and then cherry-picked some stuff, then got cold feet and decided to drop the power level considerably on concepts that were subpar to begin with. There aren't any actually new ideas there at all.
And it's going to come to people's attention that if you want someone to just recycle the ideas from 3e, you can throw a stone at a convention and hit 4-5 guys you wouldn't mind sharing an office with who can do that, but going with a new one periodically means they'll value a different set of ideas from 3e and maybe use a better subset.
But I don't know what Paizo's long-term business plan is. They might just be willing to suck on 3e's leavings and keep their buddies employed, and in that case JB has a job for as long that the downward spiral lasts. In that scenario, Jason can just keep stealing ideas from 3e and from random people on gaming boards indefinitely.
Last edited by K on Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:19 am, edited 6 times in total.
- Psychic Robot
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Given that Bulmahn was employed at Paizo long before Pathfinder, I have a feeling that Pathfinder's success or failure will not seriously affect his employment status.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:You do not seem to do anything.Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
Still looks there to me. It was removed?Quantumboost wrote:It was, though only for an hour it seems (3 1/2 hours as of this post). Do I foresee an edit war?Roy wrote:Which might or might not have been there before that page was linked here.CatharzGodfoot wrote:Doesn't sound more than half bad, and there is mention of the caster/noncaster issue.
Draco_Argentum wrote:Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.
Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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- Duke
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It's a new idea. It's a guy who dual-wields with spells in one hand and a weapon in the other, and that really hasn't been done before. I'm wondering who exactly wanted that and why it's a good idea to start out with the penalties (bad BAB, bad spellcasting, numeric penalties to everything) and try and use that as a framework, but it is a new idea after a fashion.K wrote:I mean, look at the Magus. It's like someone looked at the old Bladesinger, Eldritch Knight, Spellsword and strangely enough the Kensai and then cherry-picked some stuff, then got cold feet and decided to drop the power level considerably on concepts that were subpar to begin with. There aren't any actually new ideas there at all.
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- Serious Badass
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But there was already the Blade Singer, the Duskblade, the Spellsword, and the Eldritch Knight. I really don't see what the new idea is.A Man In Black wrote:It's a new idea. It's a guy who dual-wields with spells in one hand and a weapon in the other, and that really hasn't been done before. I'm wondering who exactly wanted that and why it's a good idea to start out with the penalties (bad BAB, bad spellcasting, numeric penalties to everything) and try and use that as a framework, but it is a new idea after a fashion.K wrote:I mean, look at the Magus. It's like someone looked at the old Bladesinger, Eldritch Knight, Spellsword and strangely enough the Kensai and then cherry-picked some stuff, then got cold feet and decided to drop the power level considerably on concepts that were subpar to begin with. There aren't any actually new ideas there at all.
-Username17
This was actually explicitly the flavor of the Bladesinger from the 2e Complete Book of Elves and followed through to at least the first Bladesinger prestige class in 3.0.A Man In Black wrote: It's a new idea. It's a guy who dual-wields with spells in one hand and a weapon in the other, and that really hasn't been done before.