The HERO system is awesome.

[Josh_Kablack]

But here's what I *like* about HERO:

• The incredible flexibility in both character design and rules-choices for any given campaign.
• As a subpoint to that, the recommendations for which rules choices you should make to result in the particular game you want are also generally pretty good.
• Stephen Long's longtime authorship and extensive online accessibility - this is pretty much how Sage Advice, FAQs and Errata should have been handled from 3.0 D&D onwards.
• The rules outright point out potentially plot-derailing (!) and more-powerful-than-you-might-think abilities (magnifying glass). This is not perfect, (as there are always more exploits to discover) but it is very helpful to newer players and GMs.
• Once you grok the system, chargen becomes an enjoyable minigame in and of itself. It's somewhat akin to deckbuilding for a CCG. In both cases there are some obvious themes/builds/archetypes that are easy to construct and inherently viable in the game (flying energy blasters), and in both cases there is an interesting design challenge in using creativity and optimization to make less obvious design choices be viable in a given game (prehensile hair characters).
• My Forefront Champions game - I'm pretty sure I have now spent more time as a player in this game than in any other game I have ever been a part of. This is an adult group too, the game is popular enough to have survived not just holidays, convention season, scheduling changes and the occasional player hissy fit, but also births, babysitting emergencies, layoffs and job changes as well as a plague of stinkbugs in the game space.

[Ice9]

The game makes the assumption that all characters from all genres can be placed on a single point scale, and that fantasy characters are intrinsically "less powerful" than comic-book superheroes

Those are just the default values. You can easily run a high-power fantasy game in the style of Exalted or high-level D&D just by shifting up to a higher point level.


Really, the system is the same for whatever genre, there are just three controlling factors, which can be decided on a campaign to campaign basis.

1) The baseline for key stats (CV, DC / AP, DEF, SPD, and related abilities). This determines how powerful the characters are.
2) The number of character points. Combined with #1, this determines how versatile the characters are.
3) Which rules options are in effect. Most notably how equipment is bought, and how much of the gritty-combat rules are used (with none it's pretty pulp-style, with everything it's very lethal).

[Username17]

I don't feel that HERO even works for Fantasy. While I think that HERO is better than all the other systems that bill themselves as "universal" systems, it does so by not really being a universal system. It handles Super Heroes, period. It's flexible enough to handle many different kinds of super heroes, but it will always be about the supers genre one way or another.

Now it's also a damn good supers game. It's so good that I don't even see the point in games like Mutants and Masterminds. If I'm spending points and getting a superhero as my character, I want the HERO book. And I could totally see shifting from high level D&D to HERO by simply saying "you're super heroes now". Heck, I would totally run a game of "Supers: Rome" or "Supers: Imperial China" - the players could be confronted with villains who had powers from period legend and wear costumes inspired by the period as well.

But I don't think that any game in which humans have "human strength" and one increment more is "double human strength" is actually a good setup to do ordinary sword and sorcery crap with sword fights against orcs and such. It's much better at delivering Firmius and Pyros saving Rome from hundred handed titans.

-Username17

[Ice9]

Well, high-power fantasy is still fantasy, but yeah. The way powers and characteristics are priced is really tuned for a fairly high-power setting where characters and foes mostly have unique abilities and do things like fly across kingdoms when they fell like it.

With the right campaign rules - which would be somewhat extensive - you could hammer it into a sword-n-sorcery mold. It's not exactly houserule territory, because the rules do include all those toggles, but it's definitely less of a natural fit than superheroics.

[Surgo]

I can totally see where Frank is coming from, but I don't fully understand the math yet and thus take a slightly different path to come to the same conclusion. And that's that the big draw of the book is the powers. They are awesome and do all the awesome things. If I was to sit down and had to make a character in a genre that wasn't really supposed to use the powers (like a couple example characters in the book), I would feel pretty cheated. I mean, powers are what take up literally half of the first core book and they are what everybody cares about.

[hogarth]

But I don't think that any game in which humans have "human strength" and one increment more is "double human strength" is actually a good setup to do ordinary sword and sorcery crap with sword fights against orcs and such.

Frank, as Josh pointed out in another thread HERO gives you a noticeable difference with every 2.5 points of Strength, as opposed to 3.5 D&D which gives you a noticeable difference with every 2 points of Strength. Big whoop. In both cases, 10 Str is normal lifting capacity and 15 Str is double normal.

I still have my doubts that HERO works well for fantasy, but Strength has nothing to do with it. My concerns are more with how to blend "normal human" level action and magic, just like with D&D. If one player is swinging a sword and another player is casting Instant Death No Save, then those have to be comparable somehow.

[Username17]

HERO blends death rays and super punches pretty well, because it is an effects based system with a very resilient point base.

The problem is that any lightning bolt you care about is also going to be much larger than any non-super punch, and as such anyone who is supposed to matter is going to look like a super hero one way or the other. To an extent it's a pretty decent rebuke to the whole "fighters can't have nice things" meme. There just isn't room in the point system to be someone who doesn't get nice things - which means one way or the other you are going to break out of the mold of "guy who does normal stuff."

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

The problem is that any lightning bolt you care about is also going to be much larger than any non-super punch, and as such anyone who is supposed to matter is going to look like a super hero one way or the other.-Username17

So?

They are going to have Conan-like superhuman reflexes and cunning. Or they are going to have Achillies-like damager resistance, or they are going to have Belerephon-like special effects for their flying energy blasting or Daedalus/Arhcimedes like gadget pools. Heck even in more tightly limited campaigns they might even have Bilbo-like Invisibility vs Sight with fringe (IIF ring), HKA (OAF Sting) Images only to create light (OAF Sting) and Armor (OIF Mithral Shirt).

I'm not seeing that as in any way a bad thing.

[UmaroVI]

I have run a very low-powered sword and sorcery style fantasy game in HERO successfully. There was one hitch, which is that I did not think the equipment table through well enough and so everyone wound up using halberds because they were better than every other weapon. That was my fault, though, and I would have not been dumb about that now.

HERO works drastically better than, say, D&D at this sort of thing. I had 4 players, 3 were entirely nonmagical until the last few sessions, one had magical powers but they were supplementary to physical combat for the most part.

The main things you need to do to make it (any Heroic game) work are
1) Be very careful about creating equipment. If you want people to use a variety of weapons make sure they're balanced.
2) Let everyone have Powers. Really. Even nonmagical people. Just let them build feat-type super-skill abilities as powers, like Whirlwind Attack or Sneak Attack or Cleave or whatever. Depending on how low-powered you want to start out, you might want to not let people start with these, and have to buy them with XP. Talents are sort of doing this for you, but you can always design your own.
3) Be very careful about how your equipment interacts with your spells. If a lightning bolt is only about as good as an arrow, but the lightning bolt costs character points and the bow and arrow is free (or rather, costs minimal points to be proficient) nobody is going to bother with the lightning bolt.

There are various other minor tweaks you might want to make depending on the specific feel you want, like tweaking the lifting table as 6e suggests, restricting how fast people can learn abilities, etc, but those are the big 3 that in my experience determine how well Heroic games work. I can go into more detail if anyone is interested.

I wouldn't say HERO is worse at doing heroic games than superheroic games, but I would say that the GM has to do more upfront work to make sure things go well.

[Ice9]

I wouldn't say HERO is worse at doing heroic games than superheroic games, but I would say that the GM has to do more upfront work to make sure things go well.

True, I think that's the differing factor. To run a superheroic game (in whatever setting), you have all the tools you need, right in the main book. Almost all the GM needs to do, character creation wise, is decide the power level and make sure players understand the campaign theme.

For a Heroic game, you've got to create the equipment, decide what level of which powers are appropriate, and potentially create the framework for accessing them. And if you want defined abilities, like schools of magic or combat styles, then you've got to create those as well. But in play, it's not any more difficult.

3) Be very careful about how your equipment interacts with your spells. If a lightning bolt is only about as good as an arrow, but the lightning bolt costs character points and the bow and arrow is free (or rather, costs minimal points to be proficient) nobody is going to bother with the lightning bolt.

I've found that - in general, HERO tends to encourage weapon-boosting spells instead of weapon-replacing ones. For instance, "Eye of the Immortal Archer" that gives you +8 vs Hit Locations and Line of Sight range is going to kick the ass of an "Eldritch Bolt" spell at the same Active Points. And once magical bows come into play, the gap just widens.

Something I've though about, but haven't used so far, is giving some amount of "baseline" magical damage to straight blasting spells; maybe add Ego like weapons add Strength. But it probably should only apply to standard Blast/RKA types - not NND poison clouds and such.

[UmaroVI]

What I went with is figuring out the real point cost of a good weapon, converting it to DCs, and then saying that powers that are:
a) built on RKA, HKA, Blast, or Hand Attack
and
b) Target PD or ED
get that many bonus dice. So if a sword is 20 RP, then Blast costs 5 AP for 5d6 and +1d6 costs 5 AP.

Of course, you may want to encourage spells that work with physical combat over direct combat spells, in which case you shouldn't do this.

On a similar note, powers that don't work if you're wearing armor/ armor heavier than something, are done by putting a -1/2 or -1/4 limitation on, but capping the total savings at the RP cost of the armor in question (or the difference between that armor and the armor you can wear).

[Draco_Argentum]

The problem is that any lightning bolt you care about is also going to be much larger than any non-super punch, and as such anyone who is supposed to matter is going to look like a super hero one way or the other.

You're not going to tell me that this is different from high level D&D are you?

[hogarth]

The problem is that any lightning bolt you care about is also going to be much larger than any non-super punch, and as such anyone who is supposed to matter is going to look like a super hero one way or the other.

You're not going to tell me that this is different from high level D&D are you?

No, that's the point. If you're trying to play a game that's similar to high-powered D&D, then you will have the same problems as high-powered D&D (i.e. "fighters don't get nice things"). But if you're using the HERO system to fix the problems of high-powered D&D, it won't feel "D&D-ish" any more; it'll be a superhero game with a thin layer of fantasy coating. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not D&D.

[CatharzGodfoot]

This game has a lot of skills, and they seem to overlap quite a bit too.

[Josh_Kablack]

That's because in heroic level games, characters are generally supposed to differentiate from other characters via skill selection, so the system has a large variety of skills to choose from and considerable space to create custom background skills.

At superheroic, characters are expected to bypass a lot of the skills via powers. Stealth matters a lot less when you can just be Invisible to sight and sound or invoke Darkness. Shadowing a suspect matters a whole lot less when are expected to have something like Tracking Scent or "Detect Direction of Spider Tracer". Interrogation is irrelevant when someone has Telepathy. Lockpicking ceases to matter when Teleport, Tunneling, Desolid and 4d6 killing attacks are on the table as character options, etc, etc

That said, the last four Champions (superheroic) games I have run and played in did all use a condensed skill list where groups of 2-4 skills from the list in the rulebook all became lumped together into one skill. Even if you don't go that route, I recommend using no or very small penalties for "close-to-appropriate" skill usage

[CatharzGodfoot]

I'm just trying to figure out what kind of character should have acrobatics but not break fall, or vice-versa.

[PoliteNewb]

I'm just trying to figure out what kind of character should have acrobatics but not break fall, or vice-versa.

As far as breakfall, I'd suggest just buying defenses (PD, damage reduction) with the limitation "only vs falling damage". If you want, also "requires an Acrobatics skill roll".

Breakfall is a perfect example of an overly narrow skill.

Edit: also...a character who has breakfall but not acrobatics could be a stuntman or pratfall comedian. Like Buster Keaton, or Chevy Chase.

[hogarth]

I'm just trying to figure out what kind of character should have acrobatics but not break fall, or vice-versa.

A 2E Champions character would have Acrobatics but not Break Fall (which didn't exist at that point, AFAIK).

[ScottS]

If the game is all about "buying effects", then stuff which has a clear combat effect (e.g. damage negation) is probably going to get separated out from more fuzzily defined items. (I don't remember whether Acro gives you any special movement options or is just typical stuff like grapple escape etc.)

[Draco_Argentum]

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not D&D.

Yeah it is, high end D&D is a supers game, people just like to pretend that their nonmagical fighter belongs in it.

[hogarth]

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not D&D.

Yeah it is, high end D&D is a supers game, people just like to pretend that their nonmagical fighter belongs in it.

I don't know what to tell you. D&D + "super-fighter" = not D&D. It may be better than D&D, but the boring fighting man with no powers has been a cornerstone of D&D since day 1.

[Goldor]

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not D&D.

Yeah it is, high end D&D is a supers game, people just like to pretend that their nonmagical fighter belongs in it.

I don't know what to tell you. D&D + "super-fighter" = not D&D. It may be better than D&D, but the boring fighting man with no powers has been a cornerstone of D&D since day 1.

One thats shit and most people want to change.. But still there...

[Ganbare Gincun]

Question: how does the Hero 6E combat system handle things like zones of control and attacks of opportunity?

[Ice9]

By default? There aren't any. You can totally walk right past any opponents that aren't physically blocking your path.

As an ability of a particular character? There are several ways:
* The Trigger advantage - makes a power (such as a sword slash) go off automatically under certain conditions (such as somebody walked past you).
* The Area Effect and Constant advantages - makes a power be continually in effect within an area; so for instance, anyone who approaches you gets cut.
* Extra SPD, and then use it to ready actions against people entering melee range.

By default, getting stabbed won't stop movement, but you can easily add a Linked Instant Entangle or Change Environment to halt the motion of people you hit.
You could also use Change Environment (Area Effect, Constant) for a more "soft" control effect, such as making the area around you slow movement.

[Josh_Kablack]

Can't speak to 6e, as our group does see it worth the cost and effort to update, but...

At the most abstract layer, HERO uses "any attack action ends a character's phase" as the limiting factor on positional shenanigans.

That means that (without some sort of MC intervention, optional rule, extraordinary perception or power construct in play) it is rules legal to start in front of a guy you are boxing with, walk 3 hexes around him and punch him from behind (getting to hit him at half DCV). In D&D the cost for doing that is that it provokes an AoO. In HERO the cost for doing that is that your phase ends right there, so you don't move any further and your opponent can do the same to you. The only way you can move to avoid their return attack is if your SPEED is higher than theirs (or you have some sort of wacky trigger based movement power construct).

That seems a little unrealisitic and rewarding people with hafl-dcv target numbers for circling whenever they can instead of staying put adds a very powerful incentive for some movement during otherwise straight up slugfests.

But in practice I haven't seen it be that big a deal, due to the prevalence of team on team combats, the commonality of ranged attacks and the way Knockback and Stunned results limit combatants ability to position themselves in extended melees.

In games where it starts to become a big deal, Supers general buy Enhanced Perception: Increased Arc of Perception and non-supers start buying Defense Manuver.

But I have seen some houserules, the simplest being "defender gets the best DCV they can claim based on any of your positions during your phase" - that way you have to both start and end the movement in a target's rear arc in order to get half DCV.

And here's a somewhat related offical option from 4e.

Ignoring Opponents (magnifier)
In the HERO syste,, it's possible to run right past and ignore a character who is standing in your way; even if he's holding his Phase to hit you, and you won't suffer any sort of penalty.
But that's not appropriate for martial arts campaigns. Therefore we recommend this optional rule:
In one character moves right past (i.e. through the same or an adjacent hex) a foe who is holding his strrike at him, the character is treated as having only 1/2 his DCV against the attack. If the character moves right up to the fellow waiting to attack him and stops there, or moves past in a Move Through and takes an attack at him, he keeps his normal DCV. After moving up to that hex and performing a maneuver (Strike, Block, Dodge, anything) the character can continue on during his next phase and suffer no DCV penalty...but he must spend at least one phase in conflict with his enemy or he will suffer the penalty.