What the Hell is this?

[Judging__Eagle]

1174151112[/unixtime]]
I'm not even sure the shrink item trick for thrown objects even works. As the trigger for such is tossing it onto a solid surface. This would seem to indicate that the actual impact is done while the object is shrunk, and then it grows after impact.

I've always preffered to think that the shrunk items grow to ful size upon impact.

While they're still falling.

Unless you're throwing flat pancakes that always hit with one of the two faces instead of an edge.

[RandomCasualty]

1174151589[/unixtime]]
I've always preffered to think that the shrunk items grow to ful size upon impact.

While they're still falling.

Unless you're throwing flat pancakes that always hit with one of the two faces instead of an edge.

From how it's written, I'd say it grows immediately after impact, as impact is what deals the damage, it would not increase damage for throwing the object at all. It might inflict other crushing damage afterwards if the object happened to be on top of the creature, but it wouldn't be a falling or thrown object anymore at that point.

[ObiWayneKenobi]

1174029000[/unixtime]]Sorry about the thread Necromancy, but I just found another really awful feat, and couldn't resist posting about it... and I decided to post it here, rather then in a new thread.

Heroic Metamagic, from Races of Eberron, does less then nothing. It allows you to spend one action point per level of metamagic increase to apply a single metamagic feat to a spell.

Unfortunately, you can already do that with action points, only better, because it only costs one action point to apply a single metamagic feat worth any number of spell levels.

Metamagic Feats

You can spend 1 action point to add the effect of any one metamagic feat that you have to a spell you are casting. The spell is cast at its normal level (without any level adjustment because of the feat) and takes no extra time to cast.

This is actually incorrect, as the Eberron version of Action Points do NOT let you apply them to Metamagic (Eberron is specific about what action points can and cannot be used for). Eberron's Action Feats are a completely different thing than the SRD/Unearthed Arcana variant and while for the most part it's the same the UA version allows a lot more things (spending 1 AP to emulate a Feat, for instance).

I'm not even going to touch that Sleight of Hand/Quick Draw argument since everyone who thinks that's how it works is clearly trying to abuse the wording of the rules as it clearly isn't intended to work that way. You only get to make the SoH check if you're INTENDING to draw the weapon without someone noticing; no sane DM will let you try to claim this kind of crap and allow it to work.

[PhoneLobster]

From how it's written, I'd say it grows immediately after impact, as impact is what deals the damage, it would not increase damage for throwing the object at all. It might inflict other crushing damage afterwards if the object happened to be on top of the creature, but it wouldn't be a falling or thrown object anymore at that point.

The trigger isn't contact with the ground.

Its contact with the ground OR a command word.

Now that DEFINITELY allows you to stuff miniature things in a sack, enlarge and then throw them, its pretty explicitly what it was intended to do.

Better yet however it MAY allow a regular wizard to throw a miniaturized boulder into the air, yell out "aadvark!" while its still in flight and have a ten bajillion ton rock land on someone.

And thats not even counting the whole ending durations volunatrily thing which I'm pretty certain you get to do pretty much at will (its been a while since I've gone into that sort of detail with the d20 rules but still...)

[Judging__Eagle]

1174169425[/unixtime]]I'm not even going to touch that Sleight of Hand/Quick Draw argument since everyone who thinks that's how it works is clearly trying to abuse the wording of the rules as it clearly isn't intended to work that way. You only get to make the SoH check if you're INTENDING to draw the weapon without someone noticing; no sane DM will let you try to claim this kind of crap and allow it to work.

Except, you did touch it.

Also, what do you say when I hide my massively boosted club of awesomeness on my cleric, and then SoH it to draw it really fast?

I have 1 rank in SoH, and I take the -20 penalty since I want to threaten a guy and if he doesn't surrender, I'm gonna charge him and beat the everloving "guts" out of him.

SoH never says "you can't use this skill if you have 1 rank and will probably use it in a broken manner even if you suck at the skill".

Instead it says that you can accept a -20 penalty when you're drawing a hidden weapon as a free action.


I don't know about you, but seriously, I can 'try' to hide my greatsword on my back, you can't deny that I am 'trying' to make a SoH check.

I might suck at it, and everyone sees the greatsword clipped to my back, but it doesn't mean that I'm not 'trying'.

At any point that I have my greasword equipped I can whirl it out in a flash of steel and try and surprise a guy I'm facing.

If anything, anyone who's watched fighting scenes knows that drawing something in a flashy way is what matters, not if they know that you have it already on you.

Drawing your weapon in an instant before you lunge at a foe is pretty cool.

I seriously don't believe that 1/7th of your total training should be consumed in learning to draw your sword fast. Afterall, +1 BaB makes weapon drawing free if you take a move action, any move action.

[erik]

1174187768[/unixtime]]
+1 BaB makes weapon drawing free if you take a move action, any move action.

This makes me feel like +6 BAB should make weapon drawing free. Period.

My home games hath just gotten a new house rule methinks.

[Judging__Eagle]

1174188337[/unixtime]]

1174187768[/unixtime]]
+1 BaB makes weapon drawing free if you take a move action, any move action.

This makes me feel like +6 BAB should make weapon drawing free. Period.

My home games hath just gotten a new house rule methinks.

Sorry for the re-animating of this thread, but this caught my attention.

Basic rules for weapon drawing, aka, fighters are better at usign weapons than non-fighters.

+0 BaB: You can Draw a weapon as a move action

+1 BaB: You can draw a weapon as part of a Move Action.

+6 BaB: You can Draw one weapon as a Free Action.

+11 BaB: You can draw weapons and/or ready your sheild as an Immediate Action.

+16 You may count any weapon you carry the weight of and is not in an extradimensional space you cannot access as a free action (so, Gloves of Storing are fair game, Portable Holes are not) as being in your hand at any time (even in the middle of your attacks and attacks of opportunity). The same goes for Sheilds.

You may make no more switchs per round than one per +2 BaB that you have and each weapon or sheild switch reduces from this maximum (so, 8 switches at lvl 16).

Not worth making a feat; everyone just gets it based on BaB.

[Brobdingnagian]

Woot.

[Judging__Eagle]

Yeah, the 16th lvl fighter who can rapid switch his weapons to kill one monster or an other within seconds is key for really successful melee-types.

Hmm... I think I even know where I got this idea.

Playing a dozen different Knight builds in RO. After a while I got sick of "tough defense" or "dodgy defense" builds and simply went for a "str whore hybrid defense build" so I could use the whole suite of weapons and armours that I had been collecting. This in turn led to me learning how to hot-key about 27 different usuable items, equipable items and 'attack skills'; which allowed me to walk around drinking potions while leading a pile of monsters until I killed them with a melee AOE skill, then switching out my spear/shield for a 2H sword, activating my 2H sword speedy attack skill and killing the 'archer' guys who would not melee me; then switching back to spear/sheild. That shit used to impress the newer players who's priests I XP-shared with while they healed my ass; they had never seen a knight who could deal decent damage and packed weapons custom-made for specific targets (after a while, you get sick of blowing time in an MMO and you make an 'ideal' weapon for a specific monster that you'll be killing; most MMOs don't let you do that and instead to get "the level 40 of 60 appropriate sword").

Which gives me an idea to present in the Magic Sword's thread.

[RandomCasualty]

1174182432[/unixtime]]
Better yet however it MAY allow a regular wizard to throw a miniaturized boulder into the air, yell out "aadvark!" while its still in flight and have a ten bajillion ton rock land on someone.

Well no. Using a command word is a standard action, so you can't do it yourself.

Theoretically, you could maybe have some guy use a readied action to use the command word while someone else throws the object, but there are a few issues with this anyway.

1) In general you can't activate a command word on an object that isn't in your possession or under your control in some way. If you could, then bad guys could go triggering all your command word items if they knew the words.

2) You've still got to worry about how your DM decides to handle the physics of the situation. He could just rule that the object retains the same momentum, meaning that it slows down proportional to the increased mass.

3) As far as a rules argument, when you enlarge the object it might gain the same mechanics as if you had thrown the enlarged version, as opposed to the original version and thus only go as far as you could throw the new object (which likely isn't very far at all).

So you can pre-enlarge the item, then throw it (this takes 2 actions, one standard to command-word enlarge it and another to throw the object). Trying to throw it on your own and enlarging it mid-air doesn't work at all. Having a buddy with a readied action to use the command word might work if your DM is particularly lenient about it.

And thats not even counting the whole ending durations volunatrily thing which I'm pretty certain you get to do pretty much at will (its been a while since I've gone into that sort of detail with the d20 rules but still...)

Dismissing a spell is also a standard action.

[User3]

1164145354[/unixtime]]

For my money, the worst feat in WotC material comes from It's Hot Outside.

Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu

Prerequisities: Patron deity Tem-Et-Nu, must have defeated a hippopotamus in single combat.

Benefit: Hippopotami [sic] cannot attack you unless they are magically compelled. In addition, if you possess the turn or rebuke undead class feature, you can rebuke or command hippopotami [sic] as an evil cleric rebukes or commands undead. You gain a +2 sacred bonus to your Armor Class against chaotic-aligned creatures with the fire subtype.

Cleric is now an additional favored class for you; the cleric class does not count when determining whether you take an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

Special: Your aura radiates law with a strength equal to your character level (see detect law, page 219 of the Player's Handbook.) If you ever lose favor with Tem-Et-Nu, or change your patron deity to another deity, you lose all benefits of this feat and take damage if you were bitten by a hippopotamus. You do not gain a replacement feat. If you later return to Tem-Et-Nu's faithful and receive an atonement spell, you regain the benefit of this feat.

No way dude, that's a great feat! It's seriously not even worth playing an Egyptian hippopotamus cleric if you can't have Blessed By Tem-Et-Nu!

And what's up with [sic]? Hippopotami is totally a correct plural of hippopotamus.

[PhoneLobster]

Well no. Using a command word is a standard action, so you can't do it yourself.

Let me reword that.

You can unshrink the item by speaking a "word of command".

If the spell MEANT "it becomes a command word activated magical item" then it would have said that.

As it is free action speech and without having to be wearing or holding the thing seems perfectly reasonable, for several reasons.

1) If the intent of the spell ISN'T to put a tiny cart on the ground step back and say "acalamazoo!" then frankly what the fvck is it for?

2) Its a spell effect NOT a magic item.

3) This isn't magic item activation or spell completion or any of that junk its a unique trigger effect which can be triggered in more than one way which is entirely different to some ring of what have you item.

As for the dismiss thing what the heck? Thats lame. Did they change that from 3.0 or am I just in denial because of the lameness of it?

2) You've still got to worry about how your DM decides to handle the physics of the situation. He could just rule that the object retains the same momentum, meaning that it slows down proportional to the increased mass.

3) As far as a rules argument, when you enlarge the object it might gain the same mechanics as if you had thrown the enlarged version, as opposed to the original version and thus only go as far as you could throw the new object (which likely isn't very far at all).

The physics are not a problem. Regardless of completely lame attempts by the GM to go wise ass on you with strange conservation/loss of momentum wierdness it doesn't matter, you just make it big at a different point in the arc, gravity will do the rest.

Unless your GM rules that gravity works differently on it because he hates you.

[RandomCasualty]

1175994171[/unixtime]]
Let me reword that.

You can unshrink the item by speaking a "word of command".

If the spell MEANT "it becomes a command word activated magical item" then it would have said that.

Word of command and command-word are the same thing if you ask me, it's just another way of saying it.

And any command-word activated object is a standard action to use. Yes, speech is a free action, but using command words are apparently a standard action.

As it is free action speech and without having to be wearing or holding the thing seems perfectly reasonable, for several reasons.

Well, it's probably intended that the caster of the spell is always considered as the object's owner for purposes of using the command word. That's the way I've always played it.

So the caster can activate the item on the ground, but other people can't.

3) This isn't magic item activation or spell completion or any of that junk its a unique trigger effect which can be triggered in more than one way which is entirely different to some ring of what have you item.

Well, the only real reference we have to using command-words is that they take standard actions, so I think that by default, unless it's stated as a free action, we should assume it's a standard. It's also a lot more balanced that way too.

As for the dismiss thing what the heck? Thats lame. Did they change that from 3.0 or am I just in denial because of the lameness of it?

No clue... I just know it is a standard in 3.5.

The physics are not a problem. Regardless of completely lame attempts by the GM to go wise ass on you with strange conservation/loss of momentum wierdness it doesn't matter, you just make it big at a different point in the arc, gravity will do the rest.

Well, the DM can easily just say the object goes hopelessly off target from the change in size and mass.

There's no real indication of what happens when you enlarge an item in mid-air, so I'd consider it DM fiat as the original intention of shrink item is just to make things portable, not making super projectiles.

[PhoneLobster]

Word of command and command-word are the same thing if you ask me, it's just another way of saying it.

Yeah and since WOTC can't write for shit you have to watch out for synonomous crap like that. But still.

And any command-word activated object is a standard action to use. Yes, speech is a free action, but using command words are apparently a standard action.

Note one of the key differences here "activated". Command word activated is a very specific sort of magical item activation shrink item says nothing about creating a magic item or requiring item activation.

We know shrink item follows different rules to standard command word activation for a start because only the caster can ever unshrink the item by speaking "a word of command".

Also saying "merely" talking about a free action then talking about something else that is PROBABLY a free action, sorta suggests unshrinking is a free action...

But hey OK maybe a third level spell is infact worthless for anything other than keeping the Cat from red dwarfs walk in wardrobe in a mere five by ten foot trunk.

And in no way was ever intended for you to be able to pull out surprise items in combat time in a way anyone would ever care about.

WOTC have written things with crazier intentions than that.

[Crissa]

Maybe it takes a standard action so that items won't go off in conversation, eh?

-Crissa

[erik]

There's plenty of instances of spells being triggered by words that are almost certainly not standard actions.

Magic Mouth sets some ground rules for spells that can be triggered to go off if someone says a specific word (it is referenced by Programmed Image anyway).
Alarm can be suppressed if someone says a specific word.
Suggestion can be set to trigger its effect upon the subject hearing a specific word.

Shrink Item could fit into either category really. Words that trigger spells and don't take standard actions, or words that have to be announced as standard actions.

[Username17]

I just want to note that there isin fact a magic item that is based on shrink item - it's the Gloves of Storing, and items can be pulled out of them as a free action.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1176030369[/unixtime]]There's plenty of instances of spells being triggered by words that are almost certainly not standard actions.

Magic Mouth sets some ground rules for spells that can be triggered to go off if someone says a specific word (it is referenced by Programmed Image anyway).
Alarm can be suppressed if someone says a specific word.
Suggestion can be set to trigger its effect upon the subject hearing a specific word.

Shrink Item could fit into either category really. Words that trigger spells and don't take standard actions, or words that have to be announced as standard actions.

Well the difference with the spells you mentioned was that they never use the phrase "command word" or "word of command", so the standard action thing doesn't apply to that. Just speaking a regular word is simply a free action.

The only other spell that I know of that uses command words is Fire seed's holly berry bombs, which can also be detonated by using a "word of command".