Reading the Constitution

[PhoneLobster]

Anti multiculturalism is pure racist dog whistle and I feel no particular regret in calling Tzor an utter unrepentant racist for condemning multiculturalism.

See here in Australia WE went through a "pro-multicultural" era. And it was sandwiched on either side by eras of total unrepentant racist government policy.

We DID the "assimilation" and the "white Australia" policies. We've since done interment and deterrent policies. The human cost of these policies has been unforgivably evil. The shining beacon of our brief multicultural era saw significant advancements in the rights and happyness of countless real people and saw our blatantly racist culture take it down a fucking notch and at least finally learn to stop calling people fucking "[EDITED]".

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with multiculturalism, it's the most banal and simple bit of humanity and respect. "I will not make you take off your silly culturally significant hat on pain of expulsion from this country" is NOT going to result in sharia law taking over the nation. It CAN'T result in that and it is pure racist hatred spewing stupidity on Tzor's part to pretend it will.

[sabs]

What if that silly hat covers your entire face and head so that noone can tell who you are? Is it okay? Is it okay to wear face covering ski masks all the time? Into stores? Into banks?

I'm pro multiculturism, but that doesn't mean we have to throw away our ideals, either.

France is so secular as a country, that they allow absolutely NO religious items/clothing in schools. Is it okay to ban the cross, but not okay to ban the headdress? What about a Sikh's turban, or a yamaca?

[Maj]

The US is weird because I see it walking a fine line between multiculturalism and assimilation. On the one hand, having a unique cultural background is cool and awesome, but on the other hand, at the end of the day - regardless of ancestry - we need to be able to say we're all Americans.

Without that common national identity, there's no voluntary pressure to assimilate, and people will be more inclined to stay in their isolated cultural groups and not work together. At that point, why is there a united country of X cultural backgrounds that doesn't work together well (Palestine/Israel, North/South Sudan, Kurds/Iraq/Turkey)? Why not just make a bunch of disparate countries?

[PhoneLobster]

What if that silly hat covers your entire face and head so that noone can tell who you are? Is it okay? Is it okay to wear face covering ski masks all the time? Into stores? Into banks?

First of all your argument and example is STUPID.

Second of all no problem multiculturalism is NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN about permitting a minority to use their culture as an excuse to trump the rules that govern everyone else.

Indeed multiculturalism is rather specifically about the exact opposite of that, kicking the entitled typically white assholes in the nuts and saying "NO! Bad Baby! No more special trumping of the rules for you!" and doing so in arguably one of the most non-confrontational ways by simply paying some lip service to you know respecting those who are not part of that governing minority.

And it is very telling that racists like Tzor specifically single out and attack multiculturalism that most banal and trivial of aspects of racial equality, that toothless figurehead of mere statements like "hey can't we just get along?".

They attack it because being told "Come on guys, be nice to the wogs..." is too fucking hard for these racist troglodytes.

They attack it because they see the mere act of paying any lip service of respect to other cultures as a direct attack on their own culture. And when you see that as an attack on your culture, there is something fucking wrong with you. IE... you are a racist.

[Kaelik]

So just to be clear Phone Lobster,

Am I allowed to wear ski masks into banks?

Am I allowed to wear Burka Veil combo?

If not one and yes the other? Why?

Not to mention you ignore the very common pro women's rights arguments regularly presented for anti mask laws. But you know, heaven forbid PL actually admit that there are liberals who don't like Muslims because of the whole "kill anyone who deconverts" or "My daughter thinks she's allowed to marry who she loves, well I'll just think I'll run her over with a car."

[PhoneLobster]

So just to be clear Phone Lobster

That post was so NOT worth clicking through on an ignore.

Do you understand how laws work at all?

No? The scenario is flawed on it's basic premise because we DON'T know the answer to your first question.

It's further flawed because it is of an utterly trivial nature to answer once we DO know the answer to the first question.

And its absolutely RI-FUCKING-DICULOUS because multicultural nations oddly enough AREN'T having wave upon wave of burka wearing bank robber problems now are they?

You harping on this makes you more stupid than racist. But hey what did I expect?

[The Vigilante]

What if that silly hat covers your entire face and head so that noone can tell who you are? Is it okay? Is it okay to wear face covering ski masks all the time? Into stores? Into banks?

First of all your argument and example is STUPID.

Second of all no problem multiculturalism is NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN about permitting a minority to use their culture as an excuse to trump the rules that govern everyone else.

Indeed multiculturalism is rather specifically about the exact opposite of that, kicking the entitled typically white assholes in the nuts and saying "NO! Bad Baby! No more special trumping of the rules for you!" and doing so in arguably one of the most non-confrontational ways by simply paying some lip service to you know respecting those who are not part of that governing minority.

And it is very telling that racists like Tzor specifically single out and attack multiculturalism that most banal and trivial of aspects of racial equality, that toothless figurehead of mere statements like "hey can't we just get along?".

They attack it because being told "Come on guys, be nice to the wogs..." is too fucking hard for these racist troglodytes.

They attack it because they see the mere act of paying any lip service of respect to other cultures as a direct attack on their own culture. And when you see that as an attack on your culture, there is something fucking wrong with you. IE... you are a racist.

If his argument is so stupid, why do you completely fail to adress it ?

Where I live, the Sikh community asked the government to allow their kids to bring their kirpans in school. The government refused, because a kirpan is a knife and knives are weapons and so are forbidden in schools. They sued, and won, because apparently their religious beliefs prohibited them from using the kirpan as a knife, as it would be unconceivable to them. Well guess what, it didn't take long for a fight to break out in the schoolyard and for one of the Sikh kids to stab a classmate with his totally-not-a-weapon religious knife.

That's the kind of things "racist" people are afraid of, PL, and you are an idiot if you can't understand that society has rules that must apply to everybody. You could maybe even see it if you got off your anti-white racism (yes I can play that game too) high horse once in a while.

[Akula]

Where I live, the Sikh community asked the government to allow their kids to bring their kirpans in school. The government refused, because a kirpan is a knife and knives are weapons and so are forbidden in schools. They sued, and won, because apparently their religious beliefs prohibited them from using the kirpan as a knife, as it would be unconceivable to them. Well guess what, it didn't take long for a fight to break out in the schoolyard and for one of the Sikh kids to stab a classmate with his totally-not-a-weapon religious knife.

So knives are the same thing as hats, I must be better armed than I thought. Are guns the same thing as pants?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Are you just arguing to see your own words in print? We've got Kaelik and PL ranting at each other about how everyone should be held to the same laws. Where's the disagreement?

[The Vigilante]

So knives are the same thing as hats, I must be better armed than I thought. Are guns the same thing as pants?

I see you are legally retarded. Let me give you a few hats example, friendo :

- Niqab / burqa wearing muslims refusing to show their faces for their national health insurance card's photo.

- Teachers who wear burqas or niqabs refusing to take them off to show their faces while they teach their class.

And a few more non-hat, non-knife examples :

- Orthodox jews refusing to deal with female driving instructors/examinators or policewomen.

- Muslims asking to have access to an islamic court for family lawsuits (stuff like divorce etc). Thankfully that was refused.

And another 'hat' example for good measure :

- Sikhs refusing to wear a security helmet because they want to wear their turban.

I'm totally behind everybody being equal under the Law ; I don't know about Australia, but here the problem with multiculturalism is certainly not about taking back 'whitey''s special privileges, it is exclusively about minorities asking for special privileges before the Law.

[Kaelik]

Because PL thinks the law everyone should be obeying is "You can`t do x for any reason other than because it`s your religion." Which is everyone following the same laws to the same extent that "Everyone can vote as long as they are a white male landowner" is everyone voting.

And yes PL we do know the answer to the first question. It`s no. People are not allowed to wear ski masks into banks.

[Starmaker]

And a few more non-hat, non-knife examples:

Also: Orthodox Christians refusing to apply for/receive any documents (ID, birth ID, tax ID, SSN, medical insurance, registering their kids in any way at all - homeschooling and faith healing ftw), because one assigned to them can contain "666" in its number.

[tzor]

Anti multiculturalism is pure racist dog whistle and I feel no particular regret in calling Tzor an utter unrepentant racist for condemning multiculturalism.

It's OK PhoneLobster, I feel no regret in calling you an total moron because you have no fucking clue what we are talking about. "Multiculturalism" in the European context is the notion of a culture comming into another culture without even attempting to blend in with the society they are moving into. It's the absurd notion that oil and viengar separated are just fine the way they are. THe problem is that since the incomming group is almost always of a significant numerical population less than the current population, this leads is isolation and the formation of ghettos, along with never gaining the trust and accpetance of the wider population (which they don't want in the first place).

[The Vigilante]

And a few more non-hat, non-knife examples:

Also: Orthodox Christians refusing to apply for/receive any documents (ID, birth ID, tax ID, SSN, medical insurance, registering their kids in any way at all - homeschooling and faith healing ftw), because one assigned to them can contain "666" in its number.

Well definitely. This is not about telling brown people or jews to stay down, it's really just about treating everyone equally and not letting religion dictate public life.

[Maj]

Muslims asking to have access to an islamic court for family lawsuits (stuff like divorce etc). Thankfully that was refused.

There are Rabbinical courts in the US.

[sabs]

France, which is an example I'm familiar with, has had several multiculturism issues that have created serious backlash.

1) A male bank robber hiding from police by wearing a burqa while driving.
2) a woman who got into an accident because she was wearing a full body burqa while driving, and couldn't see and got tangled up in it.
3) There is a city in france, where for evening prayer all the Muslim men in the area go into the center of town and pray in the MIDDLE of the street. EVERY day. Not letting anyone pass, pedestrian or vehicle. When asked why they do this, it's because the government won't build them a mosque.

I'm actually very for freedom of religion, but that shit's just not cool.

France has a terrible history of religious fighting. The reason the country is so outrageously secular, is because anytime Religion gets into Public Office, it causes major problems in France.

It's normal for ethnic groups to build communities together and form ghettos when they are first arriving. But it causes issues. Chinatowns in america are wondeful places where you can get authentic(ish) chinese food and culture. The problem is, it's also a safe haven for the Triads.

I spent the first 1/2 of my childhood in predominantly muslim suburbs of Paris. Most of my friends were some flavor of Algerian, or Moroccan. The town I was born in is now so bad the cops don't enter it at night.

Europe spent centuries trying to get out from under the yoke of the Church Judicial System, and we'll be damned if we're going to voluntarily put ourselves back under a different one.

[CatharzGodfoot]

France, which is an example I'm familiar with, has had several multiculturism issues that have created serious backlash.

1) A male bank robber hiding from police by wearing a burqa while driving.
2) a woman who got into an accident because she was wearing a full body burqa while driving, and couldn't see and got tangled up in it.

And then he got in a traffic accident, right?

Seriously, though, religions tend to collect arbitrary bullshite. Accommodating them to the detriment of others' safety is pretty much a universally bad idea, whether it be stoning adulterers, gassing subways, or wearing swords or masks where you shouldn't.

3) There is a city in france, where for evening prayer all the Muslim men in the area go into the center of town and pray in the MIDDLE of the street. EVERY day. Not letting anyone pass, pedestrian or vehicle. When asked why they do this, it's because the government won't build them a mosque.

On the other hand, civil disobedience is a time honored form of protest.

[The Vigilante]

On the other hand, civil disobedience is a time honored form of protest.

What the fuck are you smoking ? Why would the government have to build them a mosque ? He's not saying they won't allow it, they won't pay for it. How would you feel if your government paid for an evangelical church in your neighbourhood ? I don't give a shit if that's what Gandhi did, if the cause is retarded, it's retarded, period.

[sabs]

France has a public fund for the maintenance of historical churches and mosques. The government DOES pay for churches and mosques, in some instances. Though I never got the feeling they paid for building them, just helping to maintain them.

[CatharzGodfoot]

On the other hand, civil disobedience is a time honored form of protest.

What the fuck are you smoking ? Why would the government have to build them a mosque ? He's not saying they won't allow it, they won't pay for it. How would you feel if your government paid for an evangelical church in your neighbourhood ? I don't give a shit if that's what Gandhi did, if the cause is retarded, it's retarded, period.

Oh. That's asinine.

[PhoneLobster]

"Multiculturalism" in the European context is the notion of a culture comming into another culture without even attempting to blend in with the society they are moving into.

No. It isn't.

That's just an ignorant racist lie on your part.

I mean, I'd refute it more thoroughly except that you are so fundamentally wrong that there isn't much more to it than that.

[sabs]

You're coming into my house and telling me I have to rspect your way of life over mine? Why the fuck for?

Australia is complicated, a Penal colony that treated the aboriginies with the usual English pleasantry.

If you immigrate to France, or the Uk, or The US. I fucking expect you to learn the local language, and make a semblance of assimiliating, while still maintaining your ethnic heritage. I don't want you to come into my house and ask that I change all the rules, just for you.

[The Vigilante]

"Multiculturalism" in the European context is the notion of a culture comming into another culture without even attempting to blend in with the society they are moving into.

No. It isn't.

That's just an ignorant racist lie on your part.

I mean, I'd refute it more thoroughly except that you are so fundamentally wrong that there isn't much more to it than that.

Welcome to the PhoneLobster School of Dialectics. Here's an overview of the first class you'll be taking, PhoneLobster Debating Technique 101 :
1. Pretend to listen to the opposing side's argument
2. Make a funny face (optional)
3. Call opponent a liar / sexist / racist / homophobe / ignorant, depending on context. For added effect, use a combination of those, or maybe all of them, why not ! Be creative, this is the knot of your argument, and the truth doesn't matter. Remember, your opponent is wrong, and the important thing is to make more noise than he does, which makes you Right©®.
4. (?)
5. Profit !

In other news, I can't believe I'm siding with Tzor here.

[PhoneLobster]

I can't believe I'm siding with Tzor here.

So then like Tzor you ACTUALLY believe that European Society has a "Multicultural" policy of having people of other cultures move into their society and NOT become part of their society?

Really? Europe has a "multicultural" policy where migrants don't adhere to the laws of society, don't pay taxes, and get to run around stabbing people with knives? Because you ACTUALLY think that is what "multiculturalism" means?

Wipe the drool off your face. Because really how the hell CAN'T I call you a racist and an idiot when you actually believe THAT.

[PhoneLobster]

PS

I fucking expect you to learn the local language, and make a semblance of assimiliating, while still maintaining your ethnic heritage.

So... you don't know what you want there do you. "I want vague motherhood statements, I want vague motherhood statements both ways at once! But NOT multicultural ones!!!". Uhuh...

Double PS. Your country isn't "your house", you do not personally own "your country", you are not the boss of "your country", and making crazy demands of other citizens in your country like "Stop being ethnic! EEEK!" is not something "your country" is obligated to do, and indeed doing so is pretty much definitively racist.