The Official "4e Critique and Rebuttal" Thread

[tzor]

This is a persistent problem with the game, where Yuan-Ti show up with glowing bows that inflict poison damage, but when the players actually kill them and take the bows and the arrows they don't get any glowing or any poison. It's literally the system of "Item Drops" from Diablo. You can see armor and weapons on your enemies, but they don't actually have those things. It's just a graphic - not an interactable object.

That reminds me of the old problem with the Kingdom of Drakkar game. (Not the problem with the graphics where the icon for the monster wasn't always what the actual monster was equipped with; this you actually saw on its stat display.) Brad created these "rock" monsters that pounded you with his fists. But these fists were real weapons not a non weapon attack (after all their fists were made of ROCK). When he first coded the game, he made those "fists" weapons held by the rock monsters. When they died, the fists were a regular drop. He changed them so that when the fists dropped they would "break."

This problem lead to another problem; people would search the corpses and only take the good stuff. Leather armor and crappy weapons began to pile up all over the place, slowing the game down to a crawl. Gelatenous cubes were employed at one point but they didn't work fast enough. (They actually performed the action to convert junk into gold, at a low level so the value returned was very minimal. Expensive items were not converted.) Eventually he had a sweep routine where whole sections of the dungeon were "cleaned" in one shot.

[MadScientistWorking]

In 3.5, the beatsticks can be archery specced. At low levels, even if they aren't, pewpewpew actually works. At higher levels, they're flying too. So in that game, the melee builds are a bit disadvantaged by flying opponents, but they aren't OMGWTF unbeatable.

In 4.Fail, the MOB hovers 10 feet off the ground and shuts all the melees down.

Ignoring more Fail about MOb spawn points.

Actually, depending on the build fighters should be able to hit that. I built a rogue that could actually hit that. Paladins are most definatly able to hit that and string it along especially if it wields a crossbow. The problem is that there are so many builds that you can come up that just don't fit the whole can't hit a flying monster class.

They don't have stats.

Actually stating out NPCs would become an unwieldy mess. I've only seen it done where killing the NPC would actually have an affect on the plotline to the story. Otherwise why the hell would you not be able to kill an NPC.

If you want to bring up specific design goals to discuss or counter with, please, feel free. The problem is, everyone bashing 4th edition is doing it with 'But I don't like it!' not 'But that's counter to the design goal!'

Please read the thread before posting such lies.

Actually he's right. The mechanics aren't designed with one particular playstyle in mind and its explicitly stated so in multiple books. So would you mind answering why the very first complaint in that post that you linked to says that the developers want you to play it in one particular way?

[Psychic Robot]

Let's take an example where the starting point for an adventure is the assassination of the king. If you are going to do this, you don't roll up the assassin's, take them through the king's palace and when they all die because they rolled poorly on their disable device check scrap the adventure, do you? No, you just tell the players that as they enter the city black flags are hanging from every window and dirges are being played from every bell tower.

But you do have assassin stats ready in case the PCs run into them.

[Crawfish]

Let's take an example where the starting point for an adventure is the assassination of the king. If you are going to do this, you don't roll up the assassin's, take them through the king's palace and when they all die because they rolled poorly on their disable device check scrap the adventure, do you? No, you just tell the players that as they enter the city black flags are hanging from every window and dirges are being played from every bell tower.

But you do have assassin stats ready in case the PCs run into them.

woah what are you doing abstracting the assassination? now you're just playing magical teaparty. gotta roll that shit bro

[violence in the media]

Let's take an example where the starting point for an adventure is the assassination of the king. If you are going to do this, you don't roll up the assassin's, take them through the king's palace and when they all die because they rolled poorly on their disable device check scrap the adventure, do you? No, you just tell the players that as they enter the city black flags are hanging from every window and dirges are being played from every bell tower.

But you do have assassin stats ready in case the PCs run into them.

And they will ask questions about how these guys pulled it off if they're comparative chumps. That's fine if that was what you were going for, but not if you didn't even think about how the assassins did it.

[LR]

Let's take an example where the starting point for an adventure is the assassination of the king. If you are going to do this, you don't roll up the assassin's, take them through the king's palace and when they all die because they rolled poorly on their disable device check scrap the adventure, do you? No, you just tell the players that as they enter the city black flags are hanging from every window and dirges are being played from every bell tower.

Actually, assuming that this is 3e, I would roll a saving throw for the king. If he fails or if his demon bodyguards weren't strong enough to take on the intruder, then the king would die.

When the PCs reached the palace, the new king would apologize for the change in management while his apprentice works the blood and soot off his robes with Prestidigitation.

[Psychic Robot]

And they will ask questions about how these guys pulled it off if they're comparative chumps. That's fine if that was what you were going for, but not if you didn't even think about how the assassins did it.

Duh, the assassins are higher-level.

[Halloween Jack]

woah what are you doing abstracting the assassination? now you're just playing magical teaparty. gotta roll that shit bro

But what if the assassins creep through the king's cellar and find themselves in a (rolls) 10x10 (rolls) broom closet containing a (rolls) chest and a (rolls) ancient red dragon?

[Roy]

And this is why it's important to play a real game. Like 3.5. That way, when you decide "Hey, that fucker pissed me off. I want to kill him." then you can set about doing that. Even if he really is some random person with a death wish (since you'd have to be really fucking stupid to pick a fight with the guys who laugh at armies, unless you're at similar levels of awesome). Now it's likely killing him won't accomplish a whole lot, but getting the town guards, who probably can't do anything to you anyways to start a murder investigation. Even so, the fact you really can choose to kill someone when you have a reason to, without lol video game invincibility getting in the way, is absolutely required for a real game.

3.5 is a real game. Various other systems also offer real games. Even shit like NWoD, which is really fucked up still offer an immersive world, even if it's a really fucked up one.

4.Fail offers a game where you go into the dungeon to grind, then come back and click green dots to shop, sell, and save before repeating. Except even the old floppy disc games of that kind did the math for you. Which is why it gets the name 4.Fail.

Wait, what keeps you from killing an NPC in 4e?

It's a green dot. One of the 4rries even said so. You can only kill the red dots.

Ignoring yet more Fail about MOB spawn points.

The funniest part about Roy is that he's getting mad at 4e for abstracting things rather than having clunky rules for everything, which is easily a million times more like a CRPG or MMO, where all the NPCs are meticulously statted out! An MMO is where you can't do anything that falls outside the mechanics - while in 4e you can just abstract it. I guess I can't wrap my head around Roy's MMO playstyle, but to each his own

Sorry, you can't go kill Deathwing. He's level 85. You will have to grind on goblins first.

Come to think of it, you're right. In modern MMOs, you actually can kill some of the green dots. Just makes 4.Fail worse though. So thanks for smiting yourself for me.

Also, in modern video games, enemies actually do use the equipment they have. If an enemy has an Awesome Spear of Awesomeness, you can see it in his hand, and if you kill him you get it. You don't randomly obtain it, with a 1:9,000,001 chance from a random swarm of insects. Which again, means 4.Fail Fails all the harder.

That, and Roy has played MMOs much more than I ever have. What's all this talk of things turning green and grey?

I actually haven't played MMOs that much, but still enough to grasp the terminology, and to get all the talk of the 4.Fail designers deliberately making their game MMO like, because they liked MMOs.

Basically, friendly creatures showed up as green dots on your auto map. You can not kill them. The red dots are the enemies. You can kill them. If something is a green dot, even if it really ticks you off, you can't touch it.

I'm not sure when grey came into it. The closest MMO thing I can think of to grey is when an enemy "cons grey" - it means they are so weak, relative to you that beating them grants little to no reward, because it is so easy.

[DragonChild]

I'm curious, do you guys think strawmanning helps your position, or are you just looking to make 4e look as bad as possible? Because nobody has suggested the stuff that you claimed. But 4e DOES actually suggest "You can't take equipment off of the enemies, even if they were using it".

I mean, yeah, Roy is a fucking moron, even people here don't like him. But you guys are ignoring the actual people arguing honestly, and falling into strawmanning and bullshit.

[tzor]

woah what are you doing abstracting the assassination? now you're just playing magical teaparty. gotta roll that shit bro

But what if the assassins creep through the king's cellar and find themselves in a (rolls) 10x10 (rolls) broom closet containing a (rolls) chest and a (rolls) ancient red dragon?

They die, the king dies (because being stuck in a broom closet makes anchient red dragons really pissed off), the castle staff dies, the towns folk dies, the girl dies (I had to add that), EVERYONE DIES!

[Novembermike]

And they will ask questions about how these guys pulled it off if they're comparative chumps. That's fine if that was what you were going for, but not if you didn't even think about how the assassins did it.

They pulled it off because they got lucky. Or because they were able to worm their way into the King's guard and poisoned him, or because they built his new bed and enchanted it so he'd die in his sleep.

You actually demonstrated one of the weaknesses of D&D in general, which is that being a badass keeps anyone from killing you. There are numerous instances of powerful people being killed by relatively weak unknowns simply because physics works and a knife in the gut will kill you no matter how tough you are or if it was a child wielding it.

[Roy]

I'm curious, do you guys think strawmanning helps your position, or are you just looking to make 4e look as bad as possible? Because nobody has suggested the stuff that you claimed. But 4e DOES actually suggest "You can't take equipment off of the enemies, even if they were using it".

I mean, yeah, Roy is a fucking moron, even people here don't like him. But you guys are ignoring the actual people arguing honestly, and falling into strawmanning and bullshit.

Hi Welcome and GFY.

I'm toying with the fuckwit squad because I realized, from the beginning they were completely uninterested in an actual discussion. Other people did not realize this, and used actual effort on them. Anyways, I'm just using them for the lulz until a better source of amusement comes along. Since that's all people like Darwinism are good for. Amusing their betters (everyone).

[lighttigersoul]

I'm curious, do you guys think strawmanning helps your position, or are you just looking to make 4e look as bad as possible? Because nobody has suggested the stuff that you claimed. But 4e DOES actually suggest "You can't take equipment off of the enemies, even if they were using it".

I mean, yeah, Roy is a fucking moron, even people here don't like him. But you guys are ignoring the actual people arguing honestly, and falling into strawmanning and bullshit.

Hi Welcome and GFY.

I'm toying with the fuckwit squad because I realized, from the beginning they were completely uninterested in an actual discussion. Other people did not realize this, and used actual effort on them. Anyways, I'm just using them for the lulz until a better source of amusement comes along. Since that's all people like Darwinism are good for. Amusing their betters (everyone).

For being on the side citing logical inconsistencies that don't exist, you sure use a lot of ones that do.

[MadScientistWorking]

I'm curious, do you guys think strawmanning helps your position, or are you just looking to make 4e look as bad as possible? Because nobody has suggested the stuff that you claimed. But 4e DOES actually suggest "You can't take equipment off of the enemies, even if they were using it".

I mean, yeah, Roy is a fucking moron, even people here don't like him. But you guys are ignoring the actual people arguing honestly, and falling into strawmanning and bullshit.

Hi Welcome and GFY.

I'm toying with the fuckwit squad because I realized, from the beginning they were completely uninterested in an actual discussion. Other people did not realize this, and used actual effort on them. Anyways, I'm just using them for the lulz until a better source of amusement comes along. Since that's all people like Darwinism are good for. Amusing their betters (everyone).

Uhhh... You yourself have actually posted a lot of factual inaccuracies involving 4E. In fact the two times that I've posted something involving the butchering of the game mechanics you guys tend to ignore it. At least if you are going to criticize something don't do it out of abject ignorance.

[Kaelik]

First, the less important flying monster issue:

No it`s not a problem in 3e, because you have 1) spells like fly, airwalk, overland flight 2) spells like wingbind 3) grappling 4) the ability to have or make cover, stoneshape, windwall, control winds, wall of x, or even just carving a hole in the ground and jumping in to tunnel.

Secondly, the monsters do exist out of combat in 3e, and that`s the point. I wouldn`t MC 4e because it`s shit, but in 3e I would have the assassin`s attack plan all set up, even up to the rolling of the critical death attacks. and since it`s 3e, not 4e, he can even use spells like non-detection, and dimension door to get in. And then, the PCs can use their own abilities, like scent, tracking, divinations, and the like to try to track him down, and detect thoughts or zone of truth or dominate to find out who ordered the hit.

I had a campaign where an entire tower of obsidian went up over night, and the PCs where sent to investigate. There are actual rules for wall of stone and stone shape and how the monsters got in there that allowed for that creation, and gives the PCs some knowledge about what they are facing. And if they decided to set up a deal where they hack off chunks of obsidian and sell it to the local necro guild, they would have entirely different encounters than if they explore the tower.

The problem with 4e is that there are no rules for any of that, just a boring combat minigame and an appeal to Magic Tea Party that I could do without paying money. One of the major rule points is that you can use the actual rules that the MC didn`t come up with to allow the players to better understand the game by figuring things out and reacting sensibly, hence having full agency.

But if the Pcs have no idea what the rules are for making stone towers, they can`t respond sensibly.

[Crawfish]

.
I actually haven't played MMOs that much, .

Bullshit. You talk exactly like an MMO pubby (fail and dumb portmanteaus, I am expecting "FAIL HUNTARD" at any point now), you can't wrap your head around RPGs abstracting things - there's no way you haven't played MMOs extensively. It's you, you are the World of Warcraft baby.

[Crawfish]

woah what are you doing abstracting the assassination? now you're just playing magical teaparty. gotta roll that shit bro

But what if the assassins creep through the king's cellar and find themselves in a (rolls) 10x10 (rolls) broom closet containing a (rolls) chest and a (rolls) ancient red dragon?

phew. verisimilitude saved.

[LR]

woah what are you doing abstracting the assassination? now you're just playing magical teaparty. gotta roll that shit bro

But what if the assassins creep through the king's cellar and find themselves in a (rolls) 10x10 (rolls) broom closet containing a (rolls) chest and a (rolls) ancient red dragon?

They die, the king dies (because being stuck in a broom closet makes anchient red dragons really pissed off, the castle staff dies, the towns folk dies, the girl dies (I had to add that), EVERYONE DIES!

Look, it's already been established that assassins are all powerful Wizards, and a dragon isn't going to beat a Wizard in the initiative game. One Power Word: Shivering Touch later, and the assassins have a whole... 58,000 gp, 40 gems, 24 arts, 1 medium magic item, and 12 major magic items.

[lighttigersoul]

First, the less important flying monster issue:

No it`s not a problem in 3e, because you have 1) spells like fly, airwalk, overland flight 2) spells like wingbind 3) grappling 4) the ability to have or make cover, stoneshape, windwall, control winds, wall of x, or even just carving a hole in the ground and jumping in to tunnel.

It is an issue in 3.5. If you send up a squad of martial classes built for melee against a flying enemy that will use that flight as an advantage, the martial characters are just as screwed (If not more so.) than 4th edition. You, in order to 'prove' you are right, have changed the conditions of the challenge between editions. If you have access to spells, you're not an all martial group.

Secondly, the monsters do exist out of combat in 3e, and that`s the point. I wouldn`t MC 4e because it`s shit, but in 3e I would have the assassin`s attack plan all set up, even up to the rolling of the critical death attacks. and since it`s 3e, not 4e, he can even use spells like non-detection, and dimension door to get in. And then, the PCs can use their own abilities, like scent, tracking, divinations, and the like to try to track him down, and detect thoughts or zone of truth or dominate to find out who ordered the hit.

No, if your players don't interact with them in some way (Be it them directly, or evidence of their existence.) they do not exist outside of your (The DM) head.

As for the assassins, you, like all DMs would use as much handwavium as you need to make the plot set up for your players. The difference between the two editions is one says 'This is the rules for NPCs, they have X HP. . .' and the other says 'Just hand wave it, you're going to do it anyway.'

I had a campaign where an entire tower of obsidian went up over night, and the PCs where sent to investigate. There are actual rules for wall of stone and stone shape and how the monsters got in there that allowed for that creation, and gives the PCs some knowledge about what they are facing. And if they decided to set up a deal where they hack off chunks of obsidian and sell it to the local necro guild, they would have entirely different encounters than if they explore the tower.

Oh, so the players need to know it's possible for THEM to do it. It can't just be some fantastic happening that's hard to explain? The tower is a mental construct, it exists in your head. You don't need numbers to explain why it happened, it's magic.

But if the Pcs have no idea what the rules are for making stone towers, they can`t respond sensibly.

Oh, so you know the exact way to build a hundred-foot free standing stone tower without a foundation in the middle of a field? Last I checked the reason construction rules are abstracted (You know, dice rolls without detail.) was so your players don't NEED to know the specifics but can simply say: I want to make a tower.

[violence in the media]

They pulled it off because they got lucky. Or because they were able to worm their way into the King's guard and poisoned him, or because they built his new bed and enchanted it so he'd die in his sleep.

That's fine, but each one of those answers raises further questions. Can the PCs worm their way into the BBEG's guard and poison him? Can they build the BBEG a piece of fatal furniture? How can the PCs avoid napping on the Deadly Divan? Because that's apparently a thing that can happen and that you need to watch out for.

Or is this one of those things that appears once and then is never referenced again?

You actually demonstrated one of the weaknesses of D&D in general, which is that being a badass keeps anyone from killing you. There are numerous instances of powerful people being killed by relatively weak unknowns simply because physics works and a knife in the gut will kill you no matter how tough you are or if it was a child wielding it.

I dunno, that happens sometimes here too.

[Crawfish]

That's fine, but each one of those answers raises further questions. Can the PCs worm their way into the BBEG's guard and poison him? Can they build the BBEG a piece of fatal furniture? How can the PCs avoid napping on the Deadly Divan? Because that's apparently a thing that can happen and that you need to watch out for..

yes to all of these if it's something the players want to do.

[Novembermike]

They pulled it off because they got lucky. Or because they were able to worm their way into the King's guard and poisoned him, or because they built his new bed and enchanted it so he'd die in his sleep.

That's fine, but each one of those answers raises further questions. Can the PCs worm their way into the BBEG's guard and poison him? Can they build the BBEG a piece of fatal furniture? How can the PCs avoid napping on the Deadly Divan? Because that's apparently a thing that can happen and that you need to watch out for.

Or is this one of those things that appears once and then is never referenced again?

Theoretically yes, but it would be so fucking boring running something like this that I would never consider it for a real game (the furniture bit maybe, but not becoming a guard).

EDIT: I actually just thought of a few possibilities that you could reasonably go with for a game like this, so sure, why not.

You actually demonstrated one of the weaknesses of D&D in general, which is that being a badass keeps anyone from killing you. There are numerous instances of powerful people being killed by relatively weak unknowns simply because physics works and a knife in the gut will kill you no matter how tough you are or if it was a child wielding it.

I dunno, that happens sometimes here too.

I can 100% guarantee you that if you stabbed any of those guys in the right spot while they were sleeping they would die.

[Roy]

4.Fail has enough real problems that I don't have to make them up. No amount of pretending I am will change that I am right.

Also...

.
I actually haven't played MMOs that much, .

Bullshit. You talk exactly like an MMO pubby (fail and dumb portmanteaus, I am expecting "FAIL HUNTARD" at any point now), you can't wrap your head around RPGs abstracting things - there's no way you haven't played MMOs extensively. It's you, you are the World of Warcraft baby.

Fail is internet based, not MMO based.

Hi Welcome

You are dismissed by such memes as you are unworthy of intelligent thought.

I'm better at RPGs, and your favorite grind games than you'll ever be. Despite having not played said grind games very long.

Fact: The job of game designers is to write rules. Saying lolwut, no you guys paying me do my job will get you fired in any other profession. Your "abstracting things" is actually "making up random bullshit" and not in fact abstracting things. This of course is something the customer can do for free, which is why 4.Fail has only sold hundreds of thousands of books, and is already being replaced with 4.5.

Fact: MMOs have more depth than 4.Fail, at least the modern ones do. And when MMO choices consist of "Do I do fire or cold damage?", that's really fucking sad.

Fact: Said grind games also do the math for you, meaning combat doesn't take half the fucking session, each, such that you've long since forgotten why the fuck you're fighting all these bags of HP in the first place.

[Novembermike]

You know, I've tried to be polite but Roy seems like an insufferable prick.