More Wish Economy

[AlphaNerd]

The wish economy is kinda weird. For instance, you can buy only +2 stat items, but you could also have a pile of scrolls of something's attribute, which would give you a +4 all day.

Similarly, spell slots are only useful for having high save DCs. If you need duration or to beat SR, better to have scrolls. And that's kinda weird. Actually, you're better off if you use a pile of scrolls ever 20 minutes to keep your buffs up rather than use a permanent item.

And you can carry around scrolls of any level that you can use with decent success rates at middling levels.

You can wish for +8 ammo, but only +2 weapons. That's quite weird.

You can wish for intelligent items. WTH?


Thus, I propose the following addenda:

* Ammo comes in 5-packs when wishing -- that caps you at +3 ammo.

*Scrolls come in 10-packs, which limits you to 5th level spells. Of course, this means that a single wish doesn't guarantee perpetual wealth from a single wish, at least if you ban CoI also. I'm guessing this can be useful. Also prevents you from buying your way into the wish economy the way we did.

*No wishing for intelligent items.

[RandomCasualty]

Scrolls are honestly the big thing, because if you can wish yourself infinite 9th level spells, that's pretty big. I mean you can even get infinite gate. Even just being able to wish for 5th level scrolls kind of worries me too. D&D spell system wasn't made to handle infinite high level spells well at all.

[AlphaNerd]

Yeah, I guess we could adjust pricing or something instead of the lame-ass 10-pack rule. But that means single use spells will cost 10x as much. And that sounds really expensive.

[RandomCasualty]

Well seriously, the scroll/wand/staff paradigm has never worked out all that well in D&D. I've never liked the idea of temporary magic items in general.

The whole balancing factor of D&D magic is running out of uses, and the ability to burn temporary cash for more magic ammo was never even great design. I've always preferred magic items to work by giving you more daily slots, not a big clump of cheap slots that are a permanently gone when you burn them, because that's a crap balance mechanic for a long running game anyway.

[Brobdingnagian]

I'm hoping Frank and K will fix that with Book of Gears.

[PhoneLobster]

I totally would like to see a wand/staff mechanic that works like the magic swords that scale thingy that Frank mentioned in his magic swords thread.

So like a wizard or magic user or whatever starts out with mundane junk like a stick and a crossbow.

Then later he picks up a wand, and it shoots fricking magicy death, or whatever, that is level appropriate and scales, maybe its as good as casting spells so he has a reason to ever actually use it, maybe its a little worse than that but OK so it fills the whole wands as a fall back/spell conserving option. But it doesn't run out of juice, its like a sword, you hit things with it, only with your magic muscles.

Then later still he picks up say a staff, and its like the wand only cooler, but still scalingly level appropriate to its wielder.

Then maybe one day he picks up his artefact staff/wand/sceptre/head of Vecna and IT is totally cool, but still scaling and level appropriate and not limited in uses.

There might still be a place for single use magic items but fvck, scrolls and potions have the bases covered good enough for me, and offensive wands/etc... would be a much EASIER and better fall back to invest in if they just damn well scaled and you didn't pretend 50 charges meant something either one way or another.

Also single use items like potions and scrolls should have caster level/etc... based on the user as well, just because recording the CL for all your scrolls and junk is totally a drag man.

[Brobdingnagian]

The main problem with scrolls in the Wish Economy: DM's don't bother to tell their players to actually, you know, write down what they have and where they're putting it. People may not like book-keeping, but you can't carry two hundred scrolls on you very easily. Writing things down helps maintain balance.

[User3]

1177710898[/unixtime]]The main problem with scrolls in the Wish Economy: DM's don't bother to tell their players to actually, you know, write down what they have and where they're putting it. People may not like book-keeping, but you can't carry two hundred scrolls on you very easily. Writing things down helps maintain balance.

Except that <i>handy haversacks</i> are also free in the wish economy, and you can totally fit 200 scrolls inside one if you stack them properly.

[Judging__Eagle]

1177710898[/unixtime]]The main problem with scrolls in the Wish Economy: DM's don't bother to tell their players to actually, you know, write down what they have and where they're putting it. People may not like book-keeping, but you can't carry two hundred scrolls on you very easily. Writing things down helps maintain balance.

I do.

If you want to use it in game to "acheive" something, you better have it listed.

So, if I dump you in a maze and you don't have chalk, you better be mapping your way somehow.

[Catharz]

1177781535[/unixtime]]

1177710898[/unixtime]]The main problem with scrolls in the Wish Economy: DM's don't bother to tell their players to actually, you know, write down what they have and where they're putting it. People may not like book-keeping, but you can't carry two hundred scrolls on you very easily. Writing things down helps maintain balance.

I do.

If you want to use it in game to "acheive" something, you better have it listed.

So, if I dump you in a maze and you don't have chalk, you better be mapping your way somehow.

You mean like minor creation to make chalk?

[Brobdingnagian]

Ah, but I'd need either a scroll of minor creation listed, or the spell prepared.

[Arturian]

1177788233[/unixtime]]Ah, but I'd need either a scroll of minor creation listed, or the spell prepared.

Otherwise it'd be the fighter with the adamantine weapon marking up the walls to keep track of where they've been

[User3]

even worse, wish economy can actually be entered at 1st level.

Entice Gift.

go into a magic shop, ask to see a candle of invocation, when the owner picks it up, cast entice gift. they could fail their save and just hand it to you as a gift. you head out and summon an efreet. at first level.

[User3]

1177947789[/unixtime]]

1177788233[/unixtime]]Ah, but I'd need either a scroll of minor creation listed, or the spell prepared.

Otherwise it'd be the fighter with the adamantine weapon marking up the walls to keep track of where they've been

or the elven barbarian with a sword too large to be sheathed...

[User3]

The problem with entering the Wish economy at very low levels is that you will seriously get destroyed by extraplanar dudes who are fed up with getting summoned all the time. This is not an issue for high level characters, because by the time you can enter the Wish economy the normal way, you can totally school a bunch of genies or whatever, no problem. At first level? They will kills you dead.

[RandomCasualty]

1178049665[/unixtime]]even worse, wish economy can actually be entered at 1st level.

Entice Gift.

go into a magic shop, ask to see a candle of invocation, when the owner picks it up, cast entice gift. they could fail their save and just hand it to you as a gift. you head out and summon an efreet. at first level.

Well you're using a broken item for one and also hoping the shopkeeper fails his save. Also entice gift doesn't in any way force him to let you keep it. The shopkeeper can just go fireball you after and take his candle back.

[NineInchNall]

That's why you do it with charm person and Diplomacy!

Although he still has to fail his save ... Hmm.

[RandomCasualty]

Also it begs the question as to why a guy who has the means to get into the wish economy (and infinite gold) is bothering to sell items to people?

[Prak]

because average npc practical int is 6

[Brobdingnagian]

I'd say more like 5, but that generally seems to be the idea...

[AlphaNerd]

Also it begs the question as to why a guy who has the means to get into the wish economy (and infinite gold) is bothering to sell items to people?

I discussed this in my Wheel of Genie Thread. It's actually pretty strange. Since they can wish for Candle of Invocation or Scrolls of Planar Binding, they can get them for free. But they have no use for your gold, so they'll sell the scrolls to you for essentially 1gp in planar currency.

This is why I suggest that scrolls be capped at caster level 10 (or level 5) with regard to wishes, so that it isn't quite so abusive -- you'd still need to come up with 1650gp in planar to buy a scroll of Planar Binding. Of course, that means that you can't wish for more of them, you'll have to find someone selling them.

Also, running a low level magic shop is probably just an expected part of having a high-end magic shop. Keeps the locals happy.

[RandomCasualty]

1178111721[/unixtime]]
I discussed this in my Wheel of Genie Thread. It's actually pretty strange. Since they can wish for Candle of Invocation or Scrolls of Planar Binding, they can get them for free. But they have no use for your gold, so they'll sell the scrolls to you for essentially 1gp in planar currency.

I never actually understood planar currency. Why do people even want it? I mean it seems to me something like the Eberron dragonshards, everyone seems to want them, but they don't actually do much of anything worth having.

This is why I suggest that scrolls be capped at caster level 10 (or level 5) with regard to wishes, so that it isn't quite so abusive -- you'd still need to come up with 1650gp in planar to buy a scroll of Planar Binding. Of course, that means that you can't wish for more of them, you'll have to find someone selling them.

Yeah, scrolls are the main thing I worry about in the wish economy. Nobody cares if you can make infinite rings of protection, but getting infinite spell slots is another matter entirely.

Then again, scrolls never even fit well with the D&D model anyway. I've never liked one shot expendables. I prefer the 1 use per day item or whatever. At least that tries to blend with D&D's basic resource system.

Also, running a low level magic shop is probably just an expected part of having a high-end magic shop. Keeps the locals happy.

But there's no real reason to run a low level magic shop. it opens you up to possibilities of getting attacked by looters and for no good reason (since you can just wish for the gold anyway).

I'd see the wish economy as more of a nuclear arms race sort of thing. People who have it don't want others to get it, because it creates all kinds of power shifts. I see people doing everything in their power to prevent others from getting wish economy level ability. Because so long as others aren't in the wish economy, they're effectively your bitch. You can get them to do all kinds of quests and stuff for you and give them crap you can make for free in return.

[AlphaNerd]

Yeah, scrolls are the main thing I worry about in the wish economy. Nobody cares if you can make infinite rings of protection, but getting infinite spell slots is another matter entirely.

Then again, scrolls never even fit well with the D&D model anyway. I've never liked one shot expendables. I prefer the 1 use per day item or whatever. At least that tries to blend with D&D's basic resource system.

You know, that's a pretty simple fix for the wish economy. Maybe they're potions that refill daily, and scrolls that rewrite themselves. Slotless items of 1 spell per day. That should make a reasonable bandaid. I'll have to see about getting that agreed to in my group.

I'd see the wish economy as more of a nuclear arms race sort of thing. People who have it don't want others to get it, because it creates all kinds of power shifts. I see people doing everything in their power to prevent others from getting wish economy level ability. Because so long as others aren't in the wish economy, they're effectively your bitch. You can get them to do all kinds of quests and stuff for you and give them crap you can make for free in return.

The answer is either

1) No shops, just a plethora of adventurers getting together to swap gear.

2) Pawn Shop style store where (low-level) shopkeeper holds goods for a while or buys them off you and can buy low-level items.

Yeah, I guess letting other people into the wish economy is probably a bad idea.

[User3]

My question about the Wish economy is this:

Why do the efreeti want wishes back? What are they wishing for? Even if you're giving them 2 for 1 (out of their three wishes), once they have +5 to all of their attributes what else do they want? They can't carry all that much when they teleport (although I guess they could get a haversack to drag some stuff around), and they'll pick up a few gear-type things (within the limits of wish), but since they're effectively immortal, they probably got all of that stuff thousands of years ago. Why are they still bargaining with mortals for wishes?

[MrWaeseL]

You know, that's a pretty simple fix for the wish economy. Maybe they're potions that refill daily, and scrolls that rewrite themselves. Slotless items of 1 spell per day. That should make a reasonable bandaid. I'll have to see about getting that agreed to in my group.

What prevents you from having lots of those, then?