So what IS going on with 4E these days.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:11 pm

One of the complaints I saw holding a lot of traction with the Fan Boys was that they thought the item rarity rules were stupid and they refused to use them PRIMARILY because they were really very incomplete. The vast majority of junk was poorly or unclassified and needed manual sorting/house ruling, and on top of that one criticism I saw was something along the lines of "You rolled up a 2nd level rare (possibly power source typed, or not can't remember)... oh wait, there aren't any!".

I mean at that rate it looks like the Fan Boys can't help but be disappointed, when there isn't even a completed mechanic there it's pretty hard for them to cling to it regardless of it being good or bad.

KevinBlaze · Post by **KevinBlaze** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:25 pm

I've been trying to love DnD so hard, but it's getting to the point where I almost need to pretend a whole decade of DnD products never happened.

gourdcaptain · Post by **gourdcaptain** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:34 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:One of the complaints I saw holding a lot of traction with the Fan Boys was that they thought the item rarity rules were stupid and they refused to use them PRIMARILY because they were really very incomplete. The vast majority of junk was poorly or unclassified and needed manual sorting/house ruling, and on top of that one criticism I saw was something along the lines of "You rolled up a 2nd level rare (possibly power source typed, or not can't remember)... oh wait, there aren't any!".

I mean at that rate it looks like the Fan Boys can't help but be disappointed, when there isn't even a completed mechanic there it's pretty hard for them to cling to it regardless of it being good or bad.

I think the moral here is to wait to rotate in your new mechanic until its done.

Shazbot79 · Post by **Shazbot79** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:22 am

Swordslinger wrote: The aftermath was that most people just canceled their subscriptions and told WotC to fuck off.

It's sad because essentials was actually a decent product, but the marketing of it was terrible. They probably plan to lay low a while before either releasing 5E or selling the D&D brand to some other publisher. Whether Heroes of Shadow will get scrapped entirely or release as a half-finished piece of crap is anyone's guess.

It's unlikely that WotC will sell D&D to another publisher, as they are a subsidiary of Hasbro, who probably has the licensing rights to all of WotC's properties.

It is possible that Hasbro might sell the publishing rights to someone else, but knowing them they'd probably rather just shelve the property for a few years and try to reinvent it within another form of media.

My theory is that WotC is working on something entirely unrelated. I remember reading a blogpost somewhere that was detailing the San Diego comic-con. During the marvel studios movie forum the execs were talking about tie-in products with the flood of marvel movies in 2011/12. One of the products they mentioned was a "roleplaying game from Hasbro."

I can't find the link, but there was a thread about it on EN World a while back. I think that if this is in the pipeline, it's what WotC R&D is diverting most of their efforts to.

Or maybe the game is just in the toilet. I don't know. I would be sorely disappointed to see the game get turned over to Paizo, since they're really just interested in regurgitating 3rd edition and any other company would at least attempt something new.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:06 am

well WotC got all of TSR's stuff.. so don't they own Marvel Super Heros Game?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:43 am

sabs wrote:well WotC got all of TSR's stuff.. so don't they own Marvel Super Heros Game?

Atari via Infogrammes/bioware/whatever got the rights to D&D video games until 2017, but being licensed means after that they don't have it anymore.

Likewise the Marvel license TSR had may have ran out long ago.

Just look how often the Star Wars gaming licenses switch hands.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:50 am

To be fair, the official WoTC forums wasn't "4E fan boy central". I'd say that title belongs more to Enworld.

The WoTC forums were heavily split after they launched 4E, and a lot of people did leave because of their incompetent "community building" efforts, their shitty and inexplicable interface (biggest reason for me leaving, and ancetodally it's the reason I hear most often), the general disdain they showed for players of older editions, and the way they condoned outright bullying by 4E "avengers".

But a very large segement of the 3.X playing base stayed. And a lot of the "let's give 4E a shot" players did too. So one shouldn't be surprised that there'd be a lot of whining in the official WoTC forums.

What's significant would be 4rries getting tired of flaming people for bashing 4E. Which does seem to be happening in the WoTC forums.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:09 am

Shazbot79 wrote:Or maybe the game is just in the toilet. I don't know. I would be sorely disappointed to see the game get turned over to Paizo, since they're really just interested in regurgitating 3rd edition and any other company would at least attempt something new.

Regurgitating poorly ... their commercial model is far worse than 3rd edition. Without PrCs the attraction for players to get books is much diminished ... and the power inflation for casters is even greater, since they get relatively even more flexibility with each book.

They are going to run into a wall pretty soon with their base classes only approach.

mhensley · Post by **mhensley** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:00 am

Shazbot79 wrote:It's unlikely that WotC will sell D&D to another publisher, as they are a subsidiary of Hasbro, who probably has the licensing rights to all of WotC's properties.

Unlikely, but far from impossible. Avalon Hill is owned by Hasbro and their most successful game of all time, Squad Leader, was licensed out to MMP.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:46 am

To be fair, the official WoTC forums wasn't "4E fan boy central". I'd say that title belongs more to Enworld.

To some degree, yes. But then as more and more 3e players got bored arguing with illogical WoW players moved on to greener pastures, it became the retarded fanboy central. Then Essentials came out and I loled heartily.

areola · Post by **areola** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:41 pm

Didn't WOTC just told everyone to ignore the magic item rarity rule on their latest article?

And I used to go to 4e forum and get annoyed with them fanbois..nowadays I only pity them..

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:20 pm

areola wrote:Didn't WOTC just told everyone to ignore the magic item rarity rule on their latest article?

Citation wanted for entertainment purposes.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:49 pm

It's a bunch of overhyped misinformation being shilled by people who don't like the current system. It comes down to "Use the old system or the new one according to your preferences...at least until we can add more common items to the mix."

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx ... 3/20110314

I'm tired and cranky though, so I probably read it wrong.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:39 pm

I do like the look of the new WoTC forums, but yeah, that place is mostly a graveyard compared to what it was a year ago. That probably is why you start to see the fanboys popping up elsewhere, it's just too lonely in the official forums.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:47 pm

It'll be fun once they switch to 5E, and every 4rry "suddenly realizes" the many faults of 4E after the first negative advertising campaign from WotC.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:03 pm

You're assuming 5E will
A) ever come out
B) not suck giant flaming donkey testicles
C) ever come out
D) Not be worse than Fantasy Paladium

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:40 pm

Winnah wrote:It's a bunch of overhyped misinformation being shilled by people who don't like the current system. It comes down to "Use the old system or the new one according to your preferences...at least until we can add more common items to the mix."

I think it's pretty clear:

WotC wrote:Until we have enough rare and common items in the system, it’s best to continue to use the treasure parcel system as written.

They straight up said that they don't have enough Common and Rare items to actually make the Item Rarity system work and told players that it was "best" if they just didn't use the system until some time in the indefinite future when enough extra items were written to make the system usable.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:46 pm

Fuchs wrote:It'll be fun once they switch to 5E, and every 4rry "suddenly realizes" the many faults of 4E after the first negative advertising campaign from WotC.

Was it PR who trolled them with that "5E could be about gay ponies romping through Bavaria and you'll love it and suddenly hate 4E" post?

That said, given Hasbro own My Little Pony, they should totally make 5E a MLP tie-in. It could be a huge success (it can't fail as badly as 4E did, right?)

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:11 am

I don't really know how that whole "4'rries will switch to 5 and demonize their former game at the drop of a hat" thing will really go down.

There DOES seem to be an especially, uh, obsessive following of 4E and those that remain loyal really aren't going to like the change, especially if 5E comes early and from a Farmed out source without Mike Mearl's name stamped all over it (regardless of his actual contribution or not).

And from a marketting stand point... 5E will not be targetted at 4E players they will be either assumed as being on board... or utterly discounted, because right now the bigger market segment is in what WOTC defines as "lapsed players".

We already know that "Essentials" was in fact a, failed, attempt to recapture the 3E and even 2E and other "lapsed players" crowd. WOTC basically told us that, hell, they rather wanked on about it a bit, and it CERTAINLY was jab in the eye for actual current 4E players and they seem to rather dislike it.

It's failure from the WOTC standpoint wasn't that it alienated some fair sized segment of 4'rries, it was that basically everyone other than them, doesn't even know there IS a "D&D Essentials" product line.

So yeah. 5E quite probably isn't going to be friendly to 4E players, the question really is whether anyone else will give a shit, and whether it ends up being targeted squarely at Pathfinder's market instead (be it because it is made BY Pathfinder, or by WOTC trying to undermine their now largest and most threatening competitor).

But really I expect to see stuff like "5E dropped the perfectly perfect Skill Challenges Mechanics everyone loved????!!!?!! RAGE!!!!" from the 4E fans.

gourdcaptain · Post by **gourdcaptain** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:32 am

PhoneLobster wrote: But really I expect to see stuff like "5E dropped the perfectly perfect Skill Challenges Mechanics everyone loved????!!!?!! RAGE!!!!" from the 4E fans.

Okay, even among 4e fans, is there ANYONE who thinks Skill Challenges work? The DM of the 4e game I'm in (it's the first and longest running campaign I'm in with a really good DM, sue me) abandoned them after a few attempts at them were met with groans all around with the results.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:41 am

Among 4E there are people who think there should be no rules out of combat and are offended if there are rules for statting out chickens. I think its safe to say that there are 4E defenders for every aspect of the game.

gourdcaptain · Post by **gourdcaptain** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:50 am

The straw that dumped the system in our case was when we realized the rules demand everyone act every initiative round - demanding that the Barbarian who dumped Charisma contribute to the social interactions going on. Yeah, we stopped that pretty quick. That was before I got a copy of the DMG and realized how borked the numbers are.

I still admit a bit of fondness to 4e combat, but it has major issues as well.

CCarter · Post by **CCarter** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:04 am

MGuy wrote:Among 4E there are people who think there should be no rules out of combat and are offended if there are rules for statting out chickens. I think its safe to say that there are 4E defenders for every aspect of the game.

Yeah the next generation of grognards is coming along well

The usual defense of skill challenges boils down to 'anything involving rolling multiple skill checks is a skill challenge'. Regardless of how dissimilar whatever it is they're doing may be to the rules in the book.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:25 am

PhoneLobster wrote:We already know that "Essentials" was in fact a, failed, attempt to recapture the 3E and even 2E and other "lapsed players" crowd. WOTC basically told us that, hell, they rather wanked on about it a bit, and it CERTAINLY was jab in the eye for actual current 4E players and they seem to rather dislike it.

The marketing actually made it clearly a play to recapture the 2E base, not the 3E base. Hence the return of the boxed sets and old school covers. If they thought it would capture the 3E base, they were being fucking retards. A lot of the 3.X players weren't playing yet when 2E reached its height.

Still, targeting the 2E and older market was also an act of incredible stupidity. Most of these players are already old and don't have time for RPGs anymore. What the fuck were they thinking?

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:44 am

Zinegata wrote:
PhoneLobster wrote:We already know that "Essentials" was in fact a, failed, attempt to recapture the 3E and even 2E and other "lapsed players" crowd. WOTC basically told us that, hell, they rather wanked on about it a bit, and it CERTAINLY was jab in the eye for actual current 4E players and they seem to rather dislike it.
The marketing actually made it clearly a play to recapture the 2E base, not the 3E base. Hence the return of the boxed sets and old school covers. If they thought it would capture the 3E base, they were being fucking retards. A lot of the 3.X players weren't playing yet when 2E reached its height.

Still, targeting the 2E and older market was also an act of incredible stupidity. Most of these players are already old and don't have time for RPGs anymore. What the fuck were they thinking?

Either that or the 2nd ed players have 8,000 dollars books & supplimentals, and have no interest in ditching their perfectly playable, comfortable roleplaying system to start over again with something that's going to need errata and lots of time & money.

In fact, from what I've seen, that's the #1 reason why D&D loses players from one edition to the next. Players with large collections of dead tree rule books look at their hundreds and thousands of dollars of a book collection, look at the new edition, and ask "why do I need this?"

In a literal sense, it's easier to house rule what you already have than to buy something new and potentially have to house rule it too.

So with that in mind, 2nd and 3.x edition players are more or less gone from D&D. New editions of D&D are competing with the MMO market, a robust board game market that's going through a renaissance, and a niche TTRPG market that is trying to bolt onto existing 3.x edition players. That's tough competition.

I think WOTC needs to go court the Apple fans. You know, people who will spend 700 dollars on a new iPad every year, and 300 bucks on a new iPhone yearly. People who are not just comfortable with planned obsolescence, but expect and even demand it. I have no clue how WOTC can do this, but if they can tap into that market that will happily rebuy the same product with iterative changes each year, they'll have a core audience of D&D fans who will buy every edition gleefully and leave behind the old books.