So what IS going on with 4E these days.

[Koumei]

I think WOTC needs to go court the Apple fans. You know, people who will spend 700 dollars on a new iPad every year, and 300 bucks on a new iPhone yearly. People who are not just comfortable with planned obsolescence, but expect and even demand it. I have no clue how WOTC can do this, but if they can tap into that market that will happily rebuy the same product with iterative changes each year, they'll have a core audience of D&D fans who will buy every edition gleefully and leave behind the old books.

Sell D&D as a series of apps?

[PhoneLobster]

I don't think there is as much of an automatic loss between editions as you may think.

After all how can you explain the massive explosion in D&D players with 3.0?

The simple matter is that people like to buy new things and, shockingly, there IS obsolescence in RPG rules.

4Es problem wasn't it's timing or the inertia of 3rd edition. From that perspective it came with good timing, the community WAS ebbing anyway, sales were down after all who needs those late edition mediocre splats when they have a shelf full of crap already?

Now if there was a new edition? New and Improved? With a whole NEW shelf to fill? Bingo, big sales potential.

People were sick of 3Es flaws, everyone was house ruling to hell already, many if not most splat books weren't being used, COULDN'T practically be used, the potential for a major reboot was EASILY there.

WOTC just screwed the pooch on the actual execution of that reboot. We don't need to go into why or how (again) the fact that it clearly DID screw it up is enough information alone.

There is no reason at all there couldn't have been A 4E that was both good and successful, even that managed to relatively easily recruit players like me.

It didn't happen and the fact that people had 3E materials just meant they had a fall back position, not an alternative product to fill a demand that most likely genuinely DID exist in the market.

(edit: And still does, I'm well sick of 3E, even with my rafts of house rules.)

[Username17]

As for 4rries blindly jumping to 5th edition and then turning on 4e like a rabid dog - I think it's pretty clear that a number of the 4rries will do that. While there are of course 4rries out there who only like 4e or only like 4.5, really a lot of them have completely adaptive arguments to supporting whatever WotC happens to be doing.

You know "hundreds of thousands", "full compatibility", and of course "your DM is playing it wrong". These people insist that whatever came out most recently addresses all of the problems of previous offerings and is the greatest most perfect offering WotC has ever produced. There really are people who insisted that everyone getting powers at the same time was a perfect and necessarily balancing simplification until Essentials came out and gave the different classes different ability progressions again and suddenly that was the only way to play.

These people will drop 4e and 4.5 like a shit sandwich the very instant 5e hits the shelves - even if it is about gay ponies tromping through rainbow town. These people are brand loyalists rather than 4e loyalists specifically. It's hard to tell them apart right now, but they are real and distinct.

For an even more egregious example: there are still people who support Catalyst's latest Shadowrun products regardless of what they are. Yeah, War! was incoherent, poorly edited, had non-functional mechanics, didn't fit the storyline, had no maps, and was telling an overall story about how people planting trees above the treeline in their own territory so offended a group of environmentalist tree fanciers in another country that war was inevitable. Also: Nazis. But there were people who said they "liked" it simply because it was a Shadowrun product, and they would literally give a positive review to ANY SHADOWRUN PRODUCT.

-Username17

[K]

I'd like to be a brand loyalist because DnD really does have a lot of good memories associated with it, but 4e is such crap.

I mean, I can read other games and enjoy them even if I don't have any plans to play them, but 4e causes my eyes to glaze really badly because everything is so bland. I can't even imagine how they expected their brand authors to tie novels into 4e mechanics because the mechanics just don't do anything interesting and really don't match up with previous novels.

[Plebian]

hahahaha, tying edition mechanics to an edition. you are the funniest person. RA Salvatore his own unoriginal self doesn't even try to do that. hell, neither does Greenwood. neither does any author because apart from using the odd spell name RPG mechanics absolutely do not make for a good book.

but, then again, I would not be terribly surprised if people here thought the Time of Trouble books were excellent books and that the Drizzt series were the best novels ever written.

(protip they aren't, try reading books from Glen Cook, Patrick Rothfuss, or CJ Cherryh who don't need the crutch of an existing universe to craft intricate tales)

[PhoneLobster]

...who don't need the crutch of an existing universe to craft intricate tales...

FORGOTTEN REALMS IS REAL!!!!!

In other news I may keep hammering on this, but 4E WAS a very boring read, just like K says. I mean you want to sell this product, it's a book, you want people to be able to pick it up, leaf through and go "Hey wow!" or even "Hmmm, interesting...". 4E did not do that.

Indeed I distinctly remember that the 4E DMG actually went especially out of it's way to openly and insultingly stereotype every single type of (imaginary) player imaginable, so it was worse than just dull, because if the PH didn't put you to sleep first by the time you got to the DMG, it was fucking insulting and dull.

But in the mean time. FORGOTTEN REALMS IS REAL!!!!

[Swordslinger]

In fact, from what I've seen, that's the #1 reason why D&D loses players from one edition to the next. Players with large collections of dead tree rule books look at their hundreds and thousands of dollars of a book collection, look at the new edition, and ask "why do I need this?"

In a literal sense, it's easier to house rule what you already have than to buy something new and potentially have to house rule it too.

This is the most disappointing aspect of RPGs in general. All of them have only the bare minimal effort in game balance. It sucks that when you ask what a balanced RPG is, there's pretty much no brand name anyone can cite. Every RPG has its share of crazy balance problems.

I think that if a company spent their time producing carefully thought out balanced rules, they'd do great. With the current breadth of RPG choices, the one product we don't have is something that can run out of the box with no house rules. 4E is barely passable in that it runs well at low levels, but I have yet to see any system that doesn't break down at high level.

[sabs]

Earthdawn is runnable with limited houserules. But houserules really does make it more tasty.

But it's an Epic Fantasy where everyone is a Magic User, and people have magical talents for doing shit, and only losers use real skills.

[Doom]

...who don't need the crutch of an existing universe to craft intricate tales...

FORGOTTEN REALMS IS REAL!!!!!

In other news I may keep hammering on this, but 4E WAS a very boring read, just like K says. I mean you want to sell this product, it's a book, you want people to be able to pick it up, leaf through and go "Hey wow!" or even "Hmmm, interesting...". 4E did not do that.

Indeed I distinctly remember that the 4E DMG actually went especially out of it's way to openly and insultingly stereotype every single type of (imaginary) player imaginable, so it was worse than just dull, because if the PH didn't put you to sleep first by the time you got to the DMG, it was fucking insulting and dull.

But in the mean time. FORGOTTEN REALMS IS REAL!!!!

Oh lordy, Dawinism is such an easy target to point at and laugh.

I have to concede, even with something like 20 4e books, I never read through any of them (except the DMG, and even then there may be a few pages I never bothered with). When I started playing AD&D again a few months ago, I was amazed at just how readable those ancient books are. I'd forgotten that back in those days, people realized in order for a game with 100+ page rulebooks to be successful, the books had to be interesting.

[Doctor Kenny Loggins]

...who don't need the crutch of an existing universe to craft intricate tales...

FORGOTTEN REALMS IS REAL!!!!!

You don't really think that's what that means, do you? Please tell me you know better.

[TheFlatline]

Sell D&D as a series of apps?

I am dead serious when I say that the only reason why I even tried to play pathfinder is that they had the core book and the advanced players guide as an app on my phone for 4 bucks. Which completely beats the fuck out of spending 30 bucks per book.

I'd be pissed if I had dropped 50-60 bucks on pathfinder books.

But it's an idea. Drop the chargen program as an iphone/android app. iPhone can now print to printers if memory serves with the right setup, and you can save your character to the cloud otherwise. It starts with the core PHB for 5 bucks, and you have to purchase the extra rulebooks/expansions separately for a buck or two a pop. No need to subscribe, and people will buy every single expansion simply to have the options available.

I have to concede, even with something like 20 4e books, I never read through any of them (except the DMG, and even then there may be a few pages I never bothered with). When I started playing AD&D again a few months ago, I was amazed at just how readable those ancient books are. I'd forgotten that back in those days, people realized in order for a game with 100+ page rulebooks to be successful, the books had to be interesting.

AD&D books were infinitely readable. Even the old WOD books were enjoyable reads. Hell SR4 was a fun read (though not as fun as SR3 and previous editions). 4th edition D&D is so goddamn sterile it's easy to forget that there used to be some quality writing going on.

[sake]

These people will drop 4e and 4.5 like a shit sandwich the very instant 5e hits the shelves - even if it is about gay ponies tromping through rainbow town.

And then would we have people here arguing for pages and pages about balancing earth ponies, unicorn ponies, and pegasus ponies, or how Rainbow Town is a shitty setting with an unrealistic economy and too many overpowered plot npc's ?

[sabs]

These people will drop 4e and 4.5 like a shit sandwich the very instant 5e hits the shelves - even if it is about gay ponies tromping through rainbow town.

And then would we have people here arguing for pages and pages about balancing earth ponies, unicorn ponies, and pegasus ponies, or how Rainbow Town is a shitty setting with an unrealistic economy and too many overpowered plot npc's ?

Why yes, yes we would

[Username17]

I would personally do a point by point comparison as to the relative effectiveness of rainbow ponies and true heart ponies.

-Username17

[Windjammer]

@OP: From my transcript of the WotC conference at GenCon about Essentials, August 2010:

The WotC people were asked the question whether the future (and design) of 4th edition D&D will depend on whether Essentials is a success or not. Meaning, if Essentials is doing well, everything will be Essentials, and if isn't doing well then everything will revert back to where things were before Essentials shuffled things around.

To which Rich Baker (or the other guy, don't recall his name) said, laughingly: "Well, if Essentials does poorly, we'll all lose our jobs, so I guess this is a question for Bill Slavicsek."

Slavicsek: "There is no question for us whether Essentials will be a succes or not. We already premised the future of 4E on Essentials."

[Koumei]

I would personally do a point by point comparison as to the relative effectiveness of rainbow ponies and true heart ponies.

Should we just pre-empt its release and start early?

[Psychic Robot]

Slavicsek: "There is no question for us whether Essentials will be a succes or not. We already premised the future of 4E on Essentials."

Well, that certainly is circular.

[MGuy]

I would personally do a point by point comparison as to the relative effectiveness of rainbow ponies and true heart ponies.

Should we just pre-empt its release and start early?

Everyone knows if you wanna move product you got to cater to fans of both though True Hearts will obviously pull ahead.

[Josh_Kablack]

The True Hearts' Compassion ability is key to success for any Stable, but most players don't enjoy being limited to such purely defensive actions. Especially when it's used most effectively in a real-time reactive manner.

It's much easier to just focus on the various pretty-colored lights offered by the Rainbows, even if 5/7 colors are nothing but trap options.

[Doctor Kenny Loggins]

What the fuck? How did the my little pony shit infect this place too?

[Leress]

What the fuck? How did the my little pony shit infect this place too?

We will make a game out of any idea. You haven't really been here that long, but that's how we roll.

[Doctor Kenny Loggins]

Sure, it starts with talking about it, then everyone has my little pony avatars, and then the mods gets disgusted and ban everyone. I'm actually quite looking forward to it.

[Kaelik]

Sure, it starts with talking about it, then everyone has my little pony avatars, and then the mods gets disgusted and ban everyone. I'm actually quite looking forward to it.

???

Yeah, you really know nothing about TGD.

[Doctor Kenny Loggins]

You could have saved many words by just saying "I don't understand jokes."

[Archmage]

Jokes are funny.