D&D is a cooperative RPG

[Archmage]

Shadzar, how can you tell me I need to learn English when you can't tell the difference between a hypothetical example and a personal anecdote? Nowhere in my post did I say anything about bringing a character to a game and then not being allowed to play that character. You invented this whole story about me being a disruptive asshole and I'm not even sure what you were trying to prove.

[RobbyPants]

......okay, reading that stuff managed to open my eyes to all the confusion. Too bad I didn't realize that in the times when I lurked around this place. Must have been because I was mostly focused on looking at the section where all the homebrew stuff is. Oh, well. Thanks for the info.

This message was to Maxus, before anyone asks.

Now that you're a member, there's always the [IGNORE] feature.

That's somewhat undermined though, by this:

You think everyone at the table is there for your own enjoyment and thus anything they do for themselves is them being "jerks" and "assholes".

When you learn to read English, come back, until then, this thread is NOT for you...

Followed by this:

Again, this is why iI hate the amount number of compelte complete morons 3rd brought into D&D: because they dont understand what D&D is. and nNow D&D has benbeen changed so that even the designers don't know what it is, and are trying to fix the wrong problems. The Main problem being is that people dont know what the fucking purpose of the game is. It is NOT, FYI, about trying to make some uber-character to show off with. Pin-punPun-Pun exists as a thought experiment; anyone trying to play Pun-pun would be seen as just a worthless asshole that who shouldn't be gamed with.

Priceless! +1 free Internet.

[talozin]

When I saw this thread's title I was like, hey, maybe shadzar is on to something here and he's not just being some strange antisocial grognard that hates anything that wasn't that shitpile of old school ADnD which I love only for nostalgia reasons.

Then, it took all of one succumbing to, "Click HERE to view this post" and I found that no, this was just more typical shadzar shit. Seriously, playing a character as apparently intended by the rules and fucking the game over as a result is an indictment of the GAME and the RULES, not the player.

This thread reminds me of "Reason" from "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency", which, if you aren't familiar with it, is a piece of software that takes a conclusion and produces a convincingly logical argument to support it.

[Wrathzog]

Where are these when people are making a wizard character in D&D?
...
Seriously the wizard doing that is like a ball-hog in sports. The game doesn't say you cant keep the ball and always be the one to score, but doing so says what about you exactly?

Undefined. I can only assume that people will make a character that is fun for them to play. For some people that's pushing the system to its limits, forcing it to its knees, and having their way with it. I don't do it (because I'm a scrub), but I don't judge either.

and Actually, the Wizard is like the Super Star player on your team. As annoying as it is that he gets the ball more often than you do, he also wins the fucking game for you.
But this analogy still sucks because you don't have much of a choice of what you inherit from your parents, unlike D&D where I can choose every aspect of what my character can do.
If I want to be a super star player, then I can be a super star. If everyone on my team is a super star, then we're the Dream Team and we're all equally awesome. In an Ideal Game (read: not any version of D&D), you're always a part of the Dream Team.

[sabs]

Have you actually played Wizards in 1st through 3rd Edition?
Do you know how many spells a Wizard has per day. And that he needs to have them memorized.

Yes, Wizards had a lot of tools, until they ran out of them. The whole point of D&D is resource management. The GM tries to run you out of spells, arrows, 1 shot items, x/day items. Wizards could do amazing things, if prepared properly. But they needed to know what was coming, and what would work best.

It's not an I win button, if you didn't have it memorized, and even if you had it memorized, how many copies of it did you have memorized.

[Maxus]

Have you actually played Wizards in 1st through 3rd Edition?
Do you know how many spells a Wizard has per day. And that he needs to have them memorized.

Yes, Wizards had a lot of tools, until they ran out of them. The whole point of D&D is resource management. The GM tries to run you out of spells, arrows, 1 shot items, x/day items. Wizards could do amazing things, if prepared properly. But they needed to know what was coming, and what would work best.

It's not an I win button, if you didn't have it memorized, and even if you had it memorized, how many copies of it did you have memorized.

To be fair, there are ways to avoid running out of spells--wands and scrolls and other items of commonly-used spells. If you're a cleric, be sure to grab a wand of Cure Light Wounds. If you're a wizard illusionist, you want a wand of Major Image and Color Spray.

[Leress]

To be fair, there are ways to avoid running out of spells--wands and scrolls and other items of commonly-used spells. If you're a cleric, be sure to grab a wand of Cure Light Wounds. If you're a wizard illusionist, you want a wand of Major Image and Color Spray.

That depends on what edition of DnD you are playing. I don't know about 1st but in 2nd you pretty had to get lucky when getting scrolls and wands and you couldn't just make them.

[shadzar]

Where are these when people are making a wizard character in D&D?
...
Seriously the wizard doing that is like a ball-hog in sports. The game doesn't say you cant keep the ball and always be the one to score, but doing so says what about you exactly?

Undefined. I can only assume that people will make a character that is fun for them to play. For some people that's pushing the system to its limits, forcing it to its knees, and having their way with it. I don't do it (because I'm a scrub), but I don't judge either.

The thing is you have to do both, make a character you enjoy playing, AND one that fits with the group.

Many people forget the last part.

[sabs]

And wands are as attainable as your GM lets them be.
And those cost money, so it's a resource. Do you want to spend 100 gold every fight? Is that Economically viable?

[Prak]

No, it's pretty much because no one outside the den understands what we mean by "balance between the players" and "contribute equally."

Where are these when people are making a wizard character in D&D?
...
Seriously the wizard doing that is like a ball-hog in sports. The game doesn't say you cant keep the ball and always be the one to score, but doing so says what about you exactly?

Undefined. I can only assume that people will make a character that is fun for them to play. For some people that's pushing the system to its limits, forcing it to its knees, and having their way with it. I don't do it (because I'm a scrub), but I don't judge either.

The thing is you have to do both, make a character you enjoy playing, AND one that fits with the group.

Many people forget the last part.

And some groups aren't willing to meet you half way.

[Wrathzog]

The thing is you have to do both, make a character you enjoy playing, AND one that fits with the group.

Many people forget the last part.

With D&D, yeah, you probably would have to do both. If D&D was better designed, you wouldn't have to.

Cooperation between players should be inherent in the system, not something you have to force on them with DM intervention.

[sabs]

Uh, wait how is player cooperation not inherent in D&D?

Every character has distinct niches they fill, that are different from the others.

[Plebian]

Uh, wait how is player cooperation not inherent in D&D?

Every character has distinct niches they fill, that are different from the others.

that's the premise but usually not the way things actually work out, unfortunately. casters in general have too many spells that let them either mimic other class niches or just entirely obviate them; a caster with any sort of system knowledge has to purposefully avoid taking a lot of spells in order to give other people a chance at the ball. now this certainly happens, it did in a lot of the games I played throughout AD&D and 3e, but that's really not a good thing for what should be a cooperative game.

[sabs]

Again, have you actually played Casters? I keep hearing about Castesr have too many spells. Casters just don't have that many spell slots per day. If you only throw 1 small encounter at a time, and give your playesr plenty of time to rest, the yes. My Fireball is teh awesome. But in order to even have Fireball I need to be 6th level (or 5th with a really high int). I also need to actually know fireball, and memorize it. There are other 3rd level spells I might rather have depending. Fireball isn't IFF.

How many versions of sleep can you have memorized, how many HD does it really effect. How many people can a 6th level fighter with a +1 2handed sword and gauntlets of ogre power(+2 str) kill when combining Power attack with Cleave and great cleave.

Yes, Wizards were good, there are a ton of cool spells, and given a good spellbook and preparation a good spell caster could solve any problem. But not every problem, every time.

[Hicks]

Have you actually played Casters? If you don't dominate an entire encounter with a single spell you're doing it wrong.

As a wizard player (3.x and 2.0), I've never seen a problem I couldn't solve with either silent image/phantasmal force or copious amounts of rope, and found that there is no non-movement based challenge that major image/spectral force can't solve.

Sometimes, I may play to my baser instincts and bind the battlefield in a web, but should things ever look grim i know that I have a color spray at all times ready to dominate everything I can fit in a 15' cone; and solely for my amusement, sometimes I charm person random humanoid enemies and have them follow me for up to 3 weeks at a time, making the Fighter feel completely useless because a throwaway ability at my lowest tier of power allows me to have a Fighter(s) of my own, while still being a Wizard.

• 2.0 LEVEL 5 WIZARD (CONJURER)[/td][td]Spell Level[/td][td]Per Day[/td][td]Prepared [/td][/tr]

  1	4+1	phantasmal force x2, color spray, charm person + armor
  2	2+1	invisibility, web + glitterdust
  3	1+1	spectral force + monster summoning I

  
  

Seriously, anything a Fighter can do I can do also, multiplied by how many times I've casted charm person within the last 3 weeks, plus my encounter dominating ability of spellcasting.

[Plebian]

also it's very much ingrained in players to full stop once people run out of spells; when the Cleric runs out you are no longer being healed and when the Wizard runs out you are no longer able to cope with encounters set to the difficulty of challenging casters. so you Rope Trick and wait eight hours.

[Judging__Eagle]

Correction, the Wizard Rope Tricks, the Druid Wildshapes into a mundane, small, animal; the Fiends Outsiders Teleport to their homebase Hearthstone; and the rest of the party hides in their own Portable Hole(s) or uses a Cubic Gate + Greater Teleport Item.

Sometimes someone pulls out a fortress out of their pocket. D&D land yo.

Edit:

Also.... Shadzar, are you like, completely stupid or something when it comes to special power use and gaming systems?

I thought you would have known by now that Save or Die; Die, no save; and to lesser extents Save or Suck; are how a creature wins an encounter?

A mindflayer that stuns a group of PCs for several rounds is a TPK

Your quote stating that "400d8" of damage is just stupid hyperbole, actual 400d8 damage spells would be less unbalanced and more fair than the current set up where a spellcaster can set a spell slot on fire to deal some damage (which can be resisted, saved against, and convenietly forgets that from 2e to 3e creatures all got a constitution score and quite often don't care[/i] about shitty spells like Magic Missile or Fireball. Alternately, a Wizard that wants to simply win or end an encounter, might cast, you know Charm Person/Colour spray/Sleep, Glitterdust/Web, Deep Slumber, etc..

[Echoes]

Shadzar, I tried responding to you. I realized that we've been over this ground before. There is literally no point in continuing this when I know exactly how it will end.

Back onto ignore you go.

[shadzar]

Also.... Shadzar, are you like, completely stupid or something when it comes to special power use and gaming systems?

I thought you would have known by now that Save or Die; Die, no save; and to lesser extents Save or Suck; are how a creature wins an encounter?

A mindflayer that stuns a group of PCs for several rounds is a TPK

Your quote stating that "400d8" of damage is just stupid hyperbole, actual 400d8 damage spells would be less unbalanced and more fair than the current set up where a spellcaster can set a spell slot on fire to deal some damage (which can be resisted, saved against, and convenietly forgets that from 2e to 3e creatures all got a constitution score and quite often don't care[/i] about shitty spells like Magic Missile or Fireball. Alternately, a Wizard that wants to simply win or end an encounter, might cast, you know Charm Person/Colour spray/Sleep, Glitterdust/Web, Deep Slumber, etc..

The point made was the wizard trying to overcome the fighter to outdo it doesn't make sense, the 400d6 was an exaggeration of the problem.

Casting Web doesn't prevent others form participating...it if when the wizard player without being asked to then proceeds to ignite the web and its captors with a spell, that the problem lies.

4th with its idea of controller, takes form this problem and magnifies it into a role.

If the wizard is working with the others and they bottleneck the enemy and then web then that is tactics, the wizard just casting web to trap everything and sort it out after is going to far.

Again, just picking and using spells, does not a good player make. You have to work WITH the group.

There is tons of ways a wizard could dominate ANY and ALL situations, it is with restraint in the player that makes to understand he is not the only one, that makes the system work.

Going back to my ball-hog example...in sports, they have a major failing that isnt seen....it is that player is quickly no longer playing. he rest of the players do NOT include them, and such should be done with ANY uncooperative player of D&D.

Either they learn to cooperate, or get excluded.

Casting Web on all the enemies and letting the fighter go in and kill em doesn't demean the fighters abilities. doing something that the wizard is the only one participating in the combat by killing everything at once does demean the fighter, and is the thing you dont do all the time, unless you are just an asshole.

[Maxus]

Your quote stating that "400d8" of damage is just stupid hyperbole, actual 400d8 damage spells would be less unbalanced and more fair than the current set up where a spellcaster can set a spell slot on fire to deal some damage (which can be resisted, saved against, and convenietly forgets that from 2e to 3e creatures all got a constitution score and quite often don't care[/i] about shitty spells like Magic Missile or Fireball. Alternately, a Wizard that wants to simply win or end an encounter, might cast, you know Charm Person/Colour spray/Sleep, Glitterdust/Web, Deep Slumber, etc..

...Entangle, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Forcecage, Polymorph, Shapechange, Finger of Death, Summon Monster, Disintegrate

It sounds broken, but most monsters can cast spells and do that sort of thing themselves.

[Wrathzog]

It sounds broken, but most monsters can cast spells and do that sort of thing themselves.

Everyone can cast awesome spells! Everyone but the Fighter

There is tons of ways a wizard could dominate ANY and ALL situations, it is with restraint in the player that makes to understand he is not the only one, that makes the system work.

This is pretty classic, actually.
No, it just means your system sucks. Just because no one uses Pun-Pun doesn't mean that Wizards of the Coast didn't fuck up somehow. Just because most people don't play the "Ideal Wizard" doesn't mean that D&D is a balanced game that realistically allows for cooperative play.

Going back to my ball-hog example...in sports, they have a major failing that isnt seen....it is that player is quickly no longer playing. he rest of the players do NOT include them, and such should be done with ANY uncooperative player of D&D.
Either they learn to cooperate, or get excluded.

We've already been over this. What you're actually describing is the Klepto-Rogue who takes 2 hours out of a game session to break into someone's house to steal low-value mundane items.
That's a Ball-Hog. The difference between a Ball-Hog and a Super Star (like a Wizard) is that Super-stars put the ball into the basket. Ball-Hogs just hog the ball. Super Stars win games. Ball-Hogs are a detriment to the team.
Your analogy isn't helping you, stop using it.

[shadzar]

There is tons of ways a wizard could dominate ANY and ALL situations, it is with restraint in the player that makes to understand he is not the only one, that makes the system work.

This is pretty classic, actually.
No, it just means your system sucks. Just because no one uses Pun-Pun doesn't mean that Wizards of the Coast didn't fuck up somehow.

Learn to use the enter key first of all...it helps people format the posts they quote of you without having to stare at a wall of text to find parts to remove and not miss quote-tags...

Second, WotC fucked up everywhere, but that is beside the point....

Third, no. You are presenting something "allowed" by the rules as an excuse for someone to be an asshole. Someone can meet up with friends and bring the basketball and since it is his ball tell the others they can watch him play, but it doesnt mean they are ALL playing basketball. This is what the wizard is doing in this case.

HEY look at me, look at me! watch me!

Like some 4 year old with no maturity at all. That is the same as the player that abuses the spell lists in order to prevent others from playing. The system doesn't suck because 3rd brought in mountains of morons to play D&D, it is the mountains of morons that don't understand D&D that suck.

Again, learn to cooperate...that is what the game is for, not to compete.

Take a kender, many people are allowed to play them for a short time, before the DM or other players help the character meet a gruesome end. The same should happen to the wizard character which is behaving a way that the kender is seen that ruins the game for the other players.

Still people blaming something else, because they have no self-restraint. Stick your hand under a running lawnmower, or stand on a train track to watch it approach at high speed and dare to blame the manufacturers of either.

Learn to get off your fat lazy American asses and accept responsibility for your own actions. In the decades of my life, I have seen this country become more and more lazy and trying to find a scapegoat because they think they have no faults, but stop spreading it to other countries and ruining them through gaming.

Learn to accept that you are the fuck up, not blame something else. Again a simple case of abusing a tool.

Funny when the attack was made by the guy whose wife was cheating on him with his brother or something and hit the brother with a hammer, that D&D was blamed for it or highlighted. Why not mention who made the hammer since it was the weapon used? Because it was the man abusing the hammer, that was at fault, not D&D or the hammer.

WotC fucking up parts of the game, shouldn't be blamed for people that continuously overlook that they are NOT cooperating to make a fun game for all.

WHEN cooperating if the game fails to work, THEN blame the game, but if you aren't cooperating to begin with because you dont understand how to cooperate, then you cant blame the game for functioning wrong, when you arent even playing it right.

This spreads to the weed thread where things are abused, and people blame the thing, rather than the people using it, and the women in gaming thread, where people arent working to play with women gamers in a fashion they enjoy, by not cooperating to do so.

But the thing is blamed, because humans have no faults every last damn time.

If you make the character to NOT work with the rest of the group in some way, then you are to blame for making that character, no matter that the rules allow you. Such a childish thing to blame something else, because you weren't explicitly handheld and told NO at each little instance, because you cannot grow up and realize what self-control and restraint is. ME Me ME as opposed to putting your own wants to the side to work with the rest of the group.

grow the fuck up, accept responsibility for your own damn actions.

[Bobikus]

If the Wizard has to hold himself to only using a small fraction of his ability to let everyone else play, the system sucks.

[Wrathzog]

Learn to use the enter key first of all...it helps people format the posts they quote of you without having to stare at a wall of text to find parts to remove and not miss quote-tags...
...

I don't even... should I apologize?

Anyhow, you're definitely arguing about a separate issue than I am. You're arguing about the human-factor of Cooperation while I'm going off about the impact of the game's rules on Player Cooperation.

No system can account for someone purposefully trolling his party. That shit happens and requires communication outside the scope of the game to fix. I don't care about that part because we can't mess with that.

What we can mess with is the game system. For all its Faults, 4E actually enforces player cooperation because every character class is as equally boring and worthless. 3E, on the other hand, didn't even bother pretending that its classes were balanced on any level. You were either a Full Caster, someone with UMD, or someone who couldn't warp reality.

I actually agree with you about how certain aspects of Society are festering stinky-holes but it doesn't have a place in this discussion.

[Plebian]

Learn to use the enter key first of all...it helps people format the posts they quote of you without having to stare at a wall of text to find parts to remove and not miss quote-tags...

actually it's one hell of a lot easier to read a coherent paragraph than it is your insane interspersed ramblings.

Second, WotC fucked up everywhere, but that is beside the point....

not nearly so much as TSR did. proof: WotC is still around

Third, no. You are presenting something "allowed" by the rules as an excuse for someone to be an asshole. Someone can meet up with friends and bring the basketball and since it is his ball tell the others they can watch him play, but it doesnt mean they are ALL playing basketball. This is what the wizard is doing in this case.

no, you should not have to purposefully avoid power just because the system was built stupidly.

Like some 4 year old with no maturity at all. That is the same as the player that abuses the spell lists in order to prevent others from playing. The system doesn't suck because 3rd brought in mountains of morons to play D&D, it is the mountains of morons that don't understand D&D that suck.

actually it's mountains of people who understand system mastery

Take a kender, many people are allowed to play them for a short time, before the DM or other players help the character meet a gruesome end. The same should happen to the wizard character which is behaving a way that the kender is seen that ruins the game for the other players.

so, punish people for doing nothing but following the rules. you must be a popular dude.

Still people blaming something else, because they have no self-restraint. Stick your hand under a running lawnmower, or stand on a train track to watch it approach at high speed and dare to blame the manufacturers of either.

flawed analogy, sorry. a more appropriate one would be a rule saying that the hat in Monopoly got to roll three dice, decide which ones he got to keep, and started with twice as much cash, and then blaming people for wanting to be the hat.

Learn to get off your fat lazy American asses and accept responsibility for your own actions. In the decades of my life, I have seen this country become more and more lazy and trying to find a scapegoat because they think they have no faults, but stop spreading it to other countries and ruining them through gaming.

"BACK IN MY DAY things were every bit as bad it's just that I am nostalgic as fuck and don't recognize it" is what I'm getting here

WotC fucking up parts of the game, shouldn't be blamed for people that continuously overlook that they are NOT cooperating to make a fun game for all.

no, sorry, AD&D had every bit as much caster supremacy. just because you like it doesn't mean it's not there.

WHEN cooperating if the game fails to work, THEN blame the game, but if you aren't cooperating to begin with because you dont understand how to cooperate, then you cant blame the game for functioning wrong, when you arent even playing it right.

when the game actively encourages one player to be better than all the rest it's a failing of the game, not the players.

But the thing is blamed, because humans have no faults every last damn time.

yes, the rules are blamed, because they encourage and allow this fucked up situation. it's nothing like blaming the tool, it's more like blaming discriminatory laws. if a law states that only redheads are actually deserving of justice, is it the fault of all redheads or the fault of the people who made the law?

If you make the character to NOT work with the rest of the group in some way, then you are to blame for making that character, no matter that the rules allow you. Such a childish thing to blame something else, because you weren't explicitly handheld and told NO at each little instance, because you cannot grow up and realize what self-control and restraint is. ME Me ME as opposed to putting your own wants to the side to work with the rest of the group.

why the hell isn't it the designers fault for not making a balanced cooperative game? why should the onus be on very certain players to do something that should've been done before the game was released?

grow the fuck up, accept responsibility for your own damn actions.

yeah make believe games are SERIOUS BUSINESS GUYS, accept responsibility for the designers doing a piss-poor job!