Please help me apply Skill Challenges that "Just Work"

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Hicks
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Please help me apply Skill Challenges that "Just Work"

Post by Hicks »

So I have the skeleton of a skeleton of a RPG: Chimera, 2nd Edition. It is a re-imagining and fusion of D+D 2e and 3e based on the Frank's concepts in his Math That "Just Works" thread. The general math of Chimera 2.0 is thus:
  • Rolled d20 + Level (max of 20) + Modifiers must equal or exceed task DC to succeed.
Those Modifiers in their respective categories are limited to be:
  • Action Non-proficiency, Proficiency, Focus; -4, +0, +3
  • Ability Tags, +0 to +3. These bonuses are expected to cancel out when contested.
  • Circumstance, +2 (Generally provided by an item or the aid another action)
  • Position (flanking, cover, higher ground, etc), -4 to +5
The following are tables breaking down expected bonuses at a given level and probabilities of success to roll at or above a specific DC.
  • LevelNPProfFocus
    1-3+1+4
    2-2+2+5
    3-1+3+6
    4+0+4+7
    5+1+5+8
    6+2+6+9
    7+3+7+10
    8+4+8+11
    9+5+9+12
    10+6+10+13
    11+7+11+14
    12+8+12+15
    13+9+13+16
    14+10+14+17
    15+11+15+18
    16+12+16+19
    17+13+17+20
    18+14+18+21
    19+15+19+22
    20+16+20+23

  • Percentage Chance of Success at a given DC for a given level with (Weapon, Skill or Save) Focus. Please Note that any percentage of 50% or more can "Take 10" in non stressful situations to automatically succeed.
    FOCUS DC TABLE[/td][td]Level[/td][td]Bonus[/td][td]DC 0[/td][td]DC 5[/td][td]DC 10[/td][td]DC 15[/td][td]DC 20[/td][td]DC 25[/td][td]DC 30[/td][td]DC 35[/td][td]DC 40 [/td][/tr]
    1+4100%100%75%50%25%0%0%0%0%
    2+5100%100%80%55%30%5%0%0%0%
    3+6100%100%85%60%35%10%0%0%0%
    4+7100%100%90%65%40%15%0%0%0%
    5+8100%100%95%70%45%20%0%0%0%
    6+9100%100%100%75%50%25%0%0%0%
    7+10100%100%100%80%55%30%5%0%0%
    8+11100%100%100%85%60%35%10%0%0%
    9+12100%100%100%90%65%40%15%0%0%
    10+13100%100%100%95%70%45%20%0%0%
    11+14100%100%100%100%75%50%25%0%0%
    12+15100%100%100%100%80%55%30%5%0%
    13+16100%100%100%100%85%60%35%10%0%
    14+17100%100%100%100%90%65%40%15%0%
    15+18100%100%100%100%95%70%45%20%0%
    16+19100%100%100%100%100%75%50%25%0%
    17+20100%100%100%100%100%80%55%30%5%
    18+21100%100%100%100%100%85%60%35%10%
    19+22100%100%100%100%100%90%65%40%15%
    20+23100%100%100%100%100%95%70%45%20%

    FOCUS DC TABLE (With Exceptional and Supernatural attributes, and Circumstance Bonuses) [/td][td]Level[/td][td]Bonus[/td][td]DC 0[/td][td]DC 5[/td][td]DC 10[/td][td]DC 15[/td][td]DC 20[/td][td]DC 25[/td][td]DC 30[/td][td]DC 35[/td][td]DC 40 [/td][/tr]
    1+8100%100%95%70%45%20%0%0%0%
    2+9100%100%100%75%50%25%0%0%0%
    3+10100%100%100%80%55%30%5%0%0%
    4+11100%100%100%85%60%35%10%0%0%
    5+13*100%100%100%100%75%50%25%0%0%
    6+14100%100%100%100%80%55%30%5%0%
    7+15100%100%100%100%85%60%35%10%0%
    8+16100%100%100%100%90%65%40%15%0%
    9+17100%100%100%100%95%70%45%20%0%
    10+18100%100%100%100%100%75%50%25%0%
    11+19100%100%100%100%100%80%55%30%5%
    12+20100%100%100%100%100%85%60%35%10%
    13+21100%100%100%100%100%90%65%40%15%
    14+22100%100%100%100%100%95%70%45%20%
    15+23100%100%100%100%100%100%75%50%25%
    16+24100%100%100%100%100%100%80%55%30%
    17+25100%100%100%100%100%100%85%60%35%
    18+26100%100%100%100%100%100%90%65%40%
    19+27100%100%100%100%100%100%95%70%45%
    20+28100%100%100%100%100%100%100%75%50%

    *Level 5 is the earliest any creature can have a Supernatural Attribute
  • Percentage Chance of Success at a given DC for a given level with Proficiency
    PROFICIENT DC TABLE[/td][td]Level[/td][td]Bonus[/td][td]DC 0[/td][td]DC 5[/td][td]DC 10[/td][td]DC 15[/td][td]DC 20[/td][td]DC 25[/td][td]DC 30[/td][td]DC 35[/td][td]DC 40 [/td][/tr]
    1+1100%85%60%35%10%0%0%0%0%
    2+2100%90%65%40%15%0%0%0%0%
    3+3100%95%70%45%20%0%0%0%0%
    4+4100%100%75%50%25%0%0%0%0%
    5+5100%100%80%55%30%5%0%0%0%
    6+6100%100%85%60%35%10%0%0%0%
    7+7100%100%90%65%40%15%0%0%0%
    8+8100%100%95%70%45%20%0%0%0%
    9+9100%100%100%75%50%25%0%0%0%
    10+10100%100%100%80%55%30%5%0%0%
    11+11100%100%100%85%60%35%10%0%0%
    12+12100%100%100%90%65%40%15%0%0%
    13+13100%100%100%95%70%45%20%0%0%
    14+14100%100%100%100%75%50%25%0%0%
    15+15100%100%100%100%80%55%30%5%0%
    16+16100%100%100%100%85%60%35%10%0%
    17+17100%100%100%100%90%65%40%15%0%
    18+18100%100%100%100%95%70%45%20%0%
    19+19100%100%100%100%100%75%50%25%0%
    20+20100%100%100%100%100%80%55%30%5%

  • Percentage Chance of Success at a given DC for a given level with Non-Proficiency
    NON-PROFICIENT DC TABLE[/td][td]Level[/td][td]Bonus[/td][td]DC 0[/td][td]DC 5[/td][td]DC 10[/td][td]DC 15[/td][td]DC 20[/td][td]DC 25[/td][td]DC 30[/td][td]DC 35[/td][td]DC 40 [/td][/tr]
    1-390%65%40%15%0%0%0%0%0%
    2-295%70%45%20%0%0%0%0%0%
    31100%75%50%25%0%0%0%0%0%
    4+0100%80%55%30%5%0%0%0%0%
    5+1100%85%60%35%10%0%0%0%0%
    6+2100%90%65%40%15%0%0%0%0%
    7+3100%95%70%45%20%0%0%0%0%
    8+4100%100%75%50%25%0%0%0%0%
    9+5100%100%80%55%30%5%0%0%0%
    10+6100%100%85%60%35%10%0%0%0%
    11+7100%100%90%65%40%15%0%0%0%
    12+8100%100%95%70%45%20%0%0%0%
    13+9100%100%100%75%50%25%0%0%0%
    14+10100%100%100%80%55%30%5%0%0%
    15+11100%100%100%85%60%35%10%0%0%
    16+12100%100%100%90%65%40%15%0%0%
    17+13100%100%100%95%70%45%20%0%0%
    18+14100%100%100%100%75%50%25%0%0%
    19+15100%100%100%100%80%55%30%5%0%
    20+16100%100%100%100%85%60%35%10%0%

And as a comparison, here is the expected AC of all creatures in the game, by level:
  • ARMOR CLASS TABLE [/td][/tr]
    LevelN-NN-LN-HL-NL-LL-HC-NC-LC-HP-NP-LP-H
    1111213131415161718192021
    2121314141516171819202122
    3131415151617181920212223
    4141516161718192021222324
    5151617171819202122232425
    6161718181920212223242526
    7171819192021222324252627
    8181920202122232425262728
    9192021212223242526272829
    10202122222324252627282930
    11212223232425262728293031
    12222324242526272829303132
    13232425252627282930313233
    14242526262728293031323334
    15252627272829303132333435
    16262728282930313233343536
    17272829293031323334353637
    18282930303132333435363738
    19293031313233343536373839
    20303132323334353637383940

    ARMOR KEY[/td][/tr]
    abbreviationtypeAC bonus
    NNone+0
    LLeather Armor+2
    CChain Armor+5
    PPlate Armor+8

    SHIELD KEY[/td][/tr]
    abbreviationtypeAC bonus
    NNo Shield+0
    LLLight Shield+1
    HHeavy Shield+2

The graph is laid out as Armor-Shield: i.e. C-H is Chain Armor with Heavy Shield. The range actually goes up to 45 (+3 supernatural dexterity and a +2 circumstance due to magic armor), but this is close enough for jazz.
ANYWAY- I need some help figuring out what exactly skill challenges are. In addition to that, how could/should I include them given the above maths?
Last edited by Hicks on Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:52 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by Ghostwheel »

*blinks* Wow, this is incredibly similar to a system I've been bouncing around in my mind for the last 2-3 weeks as far as the numbers go.
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Post by echoVanguard »

You should start with your desired probability of success and work backwards from there. For example (in the case of a d20 roll), if you wish for the player to have a 50% chance of success, and the player will have an average bonus of +12 to the roll at the level in question, then the DC should be 22. If you wish for the player to have a 75% chance of success, the DC should be 17; if you wish for a 25% chance of success, the DC should be 27. This rule is applicable to any check or roll across all situations and levels, provided that you know three variables:

1. The intended difficulty of the check (easy, normal, hard).
2. The intended level of the player when they perform this check.
3. The average bonus a player will have to that roll.

If you want to get fancier, you should use a typical standard distribution, and make your difficulty goals one standard distribution away from the mean for each level of difficulty distant from normal.

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Post by Hicks »

See, I think I already did that. I calculated all the bonuses for each level and found %'s of success I'm happy with, but I don't know what a Skill Challenge system is, much less how to implement one. I know how to do skills and tasks, Like 3e, 2e, and Avatar... but I've been hearing for years that 4e had a skill challenge system. It didn't work but people wanted it anyway. Basically I need some one to explain what it is, and how should I implement a working version of it.
DC RELATION TO AWESOMNESS[/td][/tr]
DCDescriptionExample (You can climb…)
0Triviala ladder
5Easya knotted rope
10Normala rope
15Difficultunhewn stone
20Professionalhewn stone
25Heroica glacier face
30Super Heroicsmooth ice
35Deifica plane of force
40ImpossibleRain

Skill Proficiencies
  • Acrobatics (Dex) (Balance + Escape Artist + Tumble)
    Appraise (Wis) (+Sense Motive + Forgery)
    Arcana (Int) (Knowledge Arcane + Spellcraft)
    Athletics (Str) (Climb + Jump + Swim)
    Bluff (Cha)
    Ciphers (Int) (Decipher Script + Speak Language)
    Diplomacy (Cha)
    Disguise (Int)
    Craft (Int) (Craft + Knowledge Architecture, Engineering, and Dungeoneering)
    Culture (Int) (Knowledge History, and Local + Speak Language)
    Devices (Int) (Disable Device + Open Lock)
    Gather Information (Cha)
    Handle Animal (+Ride)
    Heal (Wis)
    Intimidate (Cha)
    Legerdemain (Dex) (Sleight of Hand)
    Observation (Wis) (Listen + Spot + Search)
    Perform (Cha)
    Profession (Wis) (Knowledge pertaining to profession)
    Stealth (Dex) (Disguise + Hide + Move Silently)
    Theology (Int) (Knowledge The Planes + Knowledge Religion)
    Survival (Wis) (Survival + Knowledge Geography + Knowledge Nature + Use Rope)
    Use Magic Device (Cha)
SKILL NAME (ATTRIBUTE)
Non-Proficient Use
  • Description
Proficient Use
  • Description
Focus Use
  • Description
Synergy
  • Description (+2 circumstance bonus to listed skill(s))
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Post by MGuy »

This is very very similar to how the skill system I developed a few months ago works O_o.
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Post by Lokathor »

A skill challenge is like an encounter. There's several "rounds" where everyone does something every round. At the end of the rounds something or another has happened, and the players have won or lost by some degree or another.
`Instead of 1 skill check, you're having the players make several skill checks in a row to pass or fail, or pass by a lot, or fail by a lot.
`Because you're having them make several checks in a row, the chance of perfect success overall is the chance of success at each step multiplied, so each step better have a high chance of success or you better not expect a perfect performance.
`The goal of the skill challenge is usually clear, but how to get to it isn't always as clear. This is the part where you probably want players to bullshit a bit and use stuff that's only quasi-possible.

Example system based on how 4e should have done it (but didn't):
A skill challenge has 3 rounds. Each round a player can describe an action and then perform a skill check to try to get a success. Players can choose to do nothing with their character, but that doesn't get them or the group anything, so they should really try something. At the end of each round the GM will tell them about any changes the challenge has undergone based on the player's actions, which usually includes that skills are now available for use or have been removed from being available for use; sometimes a change in skills might affect the whole group and sometimes it might affect only part of the group, or even just one character.

The group of players need to get a total number of successes based on the difficulty of the skill challenge to have completed it with minimal success. More hits than needed are greater degrees of success; Similarly, margin of failure can also be taken into account. Failing by 5 is worse than failing by 1.
DifficultySuccesses Needed
Normal 1*party size
Nightmare 1.5*party size
Hell 2*party size
Blood War 3*party size

Last edited by Lokathor on Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

While the ability tags may cancel out in an opposed roll, they sure as fuck won't cancel out in a roll against a static DC. Focused characters are usually going to focus their stat mods as well, because that is what payers have always done in every system that adds stat to skill.

So when you're making DC charts for the focused characters, you should assume that they have any stat or equipment bonuses you allow.

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Post by Hicks »

Good point. I've added that table.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Lokathor, the skill challenge should NOT have difficulty increased by party size, that just makes the people who don't have the goods for the skill challenge feel like they're hurting peoples' chances. Granted, it's better than hurting people's chances for participating, but it's not an optimal situation.

The skill challenge should be set by objective difficulty. If you have more people in the party then they can take on more difficult challenges--which is pretty much what you expect!
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Lokathor »

Well the same is actually true of combats, and yet no one bats and eye when there's more foes against a bigger party and people who can't keep up in combat feel like they're a drag. In a d20-like system, everyone should naturally have a way to solve both combat and noncombat problems based on their class, and players who fail to utilize either avenue will just feel left out.

In any given module or premade adventure, it will be intended for parties of a particular size, and then have appropriate skill challenge requirements, the same way that it has specific monster loadouts at various junctures. If you have more or less party members than the adventure calls for then your group will have an easier or harder time.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Lokathor wrote: Well the same is actually true of combats, and yet no one bats and eye when there's more foes against a bigger party and people who can't keep up in combat feel like they're a drag.
There's absolutely no in-universe reason why the Fire Giant Praetorian Guard should go from 5 mooks to 7 mooks because you went from a party size of 4 to 6. I mean you'd generally want to do that anyway because otherwise it'd be too easy, but if you have someone who is struggling or is expected to struggle (the two newcomers are a fire mage and a grappler) there's no reason to make it 7 mooks anyway just to fill some imaginary quota.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Username17 »

If you add more heroes, the size of a challenge that is "balanced" for them is larger. But the size of a challenge that represents any particular task does not change. It is this basic identity that is at the heart of at least 30% of what offends people about 4th edition D&D.

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Post by fectin »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Lokathor, the skill challenge should NOT have difficulty increased by party size, that just makes the people who don't have the goods for the skill challenge feel like they're hurting peoples' chances. Granted, it's better than hurting people's chances for participating, but it's not an optimal situation.

The skill challenge should be set by objective difficulty. If you have more people in the party then they can take on more difficult challenges--which is pretty much what you expect!
Not quite true. As you point out, the difficulty of any given encouter should be objective: a seventh-level were-squid should always have the same hit point range, otherwise the game is stupid. The size of a were-squid gang should (theoretically) be the same, regardless of how many players show up that day, otherwise the game is stupid. Etc.

However, just because a troupe of kobolds always has the same stats, doesn't mean the party should spend thier entire career on kobolds. And as such, it is reasonable to provide guidelines for what is challenging at each level, and at each number of party members.
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Post by Sashi »

fectin wrote:However, just because a troupe of kobolds always has the same stats, doesn't mean the party should spend thier entire career on kobolds. And as such, it is reasonable to provide guidelines for what is challenging at each level, and at each number of party members.
But you can't scale the difficulty of a skill challenge directly to the number of PC's because character efficacy in the relevant skills varies by far more than player efficacy in combat varies.

So you actually need to scale the skill challenge by the number of PC's who are proficient or better in relevant skills. That way including untrained PC's isn't a penalty.
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Post by Sashi »

Hicks wrote:See, I think I already did that. I calculated all the bonuses for each level and found %'s of success I'm happy with, but I don't know what a Skill Challenge system is, much less how to implement one. I know how to do skills and tasks, Like 3e, 2e, and Avatar... but I've been hearing for years that 4e had a skill challenge system. It didn't work but people wanted it anyway. Basically I need some one to explain what it is, and how should I implement a working version of it.
It's OK that you don't know. Mike Mearls also doesn't know what a skill challenge is.

The current 4E "skill challenge" system is really an "extended skill check" system. It works well for representing a complex action being done by one character; give a speech to try and sway the mood of a crowd, disarm a complex trap, run a marathon.

What this system does not do is work as a "skill encounter" system where the players can Ocean's 11 up a jailbreak wherein Player 1 distracts the guard from seeing Player 2 lift the key off the Vizier and pass it to player 3 who climbs the outer wall and drops the key into the cell of player 4 who uses it to open his cell and sneak out of the tower behind the back of the guard distracted by Player 1 then get through the gates by hiding in a wheelbarrow pushed by player 5. The system just has no idea how to handle that.
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Post by CCarter »

I have some issues with the awesomeness labels e.g.
35 Deific a plane of force

I'd expect tasks Deities perform to be basically be the impossible tasks - rather than being a step down - though I suppose it does depend on how awesome you imagine deities to be.

Also, what level would you imagine people getting walls of force at? In the D&D case the level 9 caster can generate an effect that the level 20 rogue can't usually climb, and the rogue fails to do this with a significant investment e.g. maximum ranks in a suboptimal skill, compared to the caster just burning a spell slot.
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Post by Username17 »

Sashi wrote:It's OK that you don't know. Mike Mearls also doesn't know what a skill challenge is.

The current 4E "skill challenge" system is really an "extended skill check" system. It works well for representing a complex action being done by one character; give a speech to try and sway the mood of a crowd, disarm a complex trap, run a marathon.
I wouldn't say it works well for that. The core mechanic is "roll the dice a bunch of times until you succeed or run out of attempts". That's basically like the extended test rules in nWoD and SR4. And they suck. If you roll dice an ass tonne of times, you get average results pretty frequently. High and low results tend to cancel in the long run. The end result is that "roll a bunch of dice until you succeed" is incredibly deterministic. Not just in 4e D&D, but in every system that has been tried (and it's a pretty common mechanic). The only real question is whether the predestined result will happen in 6 rolls or 7, and that isn't a question that is worth rolling 6 or 7 times to find out the answer to.
What this system does not do is work as a "skill encounter" system where the players can Ocean's 11 up a jailbreak wherein Player 1 distracts the guard from seeing Player 2 lift the key off the Vizier and pass it to player 3 who climbs the outer wall and drops the key into the cell of player 4 who uses it to open his cell and sneak out of the tower behind the back of the guard distracted by Player 1 then get through the gates by hiding in a wheelbarrow pushed by player 5. The system just has no idea how to handle that.
Yeah, until you go to a "rounds" system where everyone's actions are independent and don't add to the same failure pool, there's no possible way for people to be doing things simultaneously to even matter. In the 4e skill challenge, Bob's failure counts exactly the same if he does it in the same round as Charlie's attempt as if Charlie makes two attempts in a row and one of them is a failure. So the rounds don't make any difference, and can't make any difference. If you set the basic win condition to "you have 3 rounds, see how many successes your team can acquire in those rounds" then simultaneity would actually matter.

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Sashi
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Post by Sashi »

Yeah, I didn't mean "works well" in a "is a fun game mechanic" way, but in the sense that it's understandable and useable to say "in order to accomplish this one thing this one person will roll a bunch of dice".

I've been thinking that an actual "skill challenge" system would be a much closer analog to combat than we've seen. In which there are "objectives" and "complications" with "progress points" instead of monsters with hit points. The part I'm having the most trouble with is the failure mode, basically how the challenge will "attack" the players.
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tzor
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Post by tzor »

If you want a real skill chalenge system to be like the combat system (in the ideal situation it needs to be fully integratable with the combat system, but that's an advanced problem) you need to first and foremost, give both sides in the challenge a motivation that is equal and opposite.

In most combat this is trivial - hurt them without getting hurt. Your opponent has the same motivation, only they want you to get hurt. Failure in getting them hurt risks getting hurt yourself.

In the skill challenge system the motivations are complex but they must be equal and opposite. So let's consider a simple example of politics. Guy on the right wants to cut spending and not raise taxes. Guy on the left wants to raise taxes and not cut spending. If the guy on the left starts failing enough he may suddenly realize he has been allowing various spending cuts and not getting his tax increases. The opposite could happen for the guy on the right.

In the end both could feel they have seriously compromised too much; just like two people after a long battle each with very little HP left.

As I said this has to be integrated well with the combat system, because the best solution for any loosing political battle is always to defenstrate the opponent out the window. Or to quote C3P0, "Let the wookie win."
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants »

tzor wrote:If you want a real skill chalenge system to be like the combat system (in the ideal situation it needs to be fully integratable with the combat system, but that's an advanced problem) you need to first and foremost, give both sides in the challenge a motivation that is equal and opposite.
I've always liked this type of idea, but I've never seen it done well. I remember Zine posting about a game with an interesting sounding system once.

tzor wrote:As I said this has to be integrated well with the combat system, because the best solution for any loosing political battle is always to defenstrate the opponent out the window.
Technically, I think you just said "throw your opponent out the window out the window". It's kinda like saying ATM Machine or PIN Number (unless I have my definition of defenestrate wrong). :p
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MGuy
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Post by MGuy »

I don't see why you need to combine them to get the combat after talking effect. Just make a surprise attack on the opposing dissenter. The others will either see how serious your political leanings are or negotiations, and people, are going to continue to break down.
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Post by Ghostwheel »

Hicks: Let's ignore for a moment the problems with skill challenges that have been posted for a moment to address a math issue--I think that's what you're going for with the OP.

The problem is that the math doesn't work. Let me explain. Let's say you had a "hard challenge" which you wanted PCs to fail 50% of the time. After you do the math, you find out that there are three variables; the DC, the number of successes needed, and the number of failures before it ends.

The problem is this; these numbers *change* drastically even if someone has +/-1 to their check. I tried to get it so that a range of number matches more-or-less, but it isn't even within a +/-10% range without having to change the number of successes and failures drastically depending on the bonus of the character vs. a specific DC.

I've still got an excel sheet somewhere I think where I tabulated all the math, having it clear-cut and such, but let me assure you that it unfortunately doesn't "just work".
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tzor
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Post by tzor »

MGuy wrote:I don't see why you need to combine them to get the combat after talking effect.
Well, my example was a tad bit simple. However, if you want the real complex cinamatic type of encounters (where the evil character holds a person hostage in front of the paladin while others are fighting all around them) then you have to seemlessly integrate both systems. In addition, skill chalanges are more than charisma, and those have to be considered as well.

Personally, I thnk that creating a grand unified system is possible and that once created people will look back at how stupid we all were. It's going to take a super genius to come up with it, however.
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