So what IS going on with 4E these days.

[tzor]

Back in the Day Clerics were Fighters, who could heal, and cast boss spells, and basically ruled the school.

Bah, back in "the Day" there was no THAC0.

Sure maces were nice, but they weren't cool. Range weapons were prohibited or "beneath you." (Seriously only hobbits use slings.) And while a mace of disruption was cool, it was only cool in a limited way, unlike the vorpal sword or the sword of sharpness which was massively cool.

While you got more of them (I assumed you got a good wisdom) you couldn't yet hot swap your spells for healing so you had to choose wisely which mode you wanted to play..

Sure, I actually used to like and play clerics. But they can't compare combat wise to the exceptional strength fighter

[Psychic Robot]

Don't get me wrong, I hate 4e, but the fact that somewhere, there are stupid people saying stupid things, doesn't influence any meaningful discussion.

I have yet to see any evidence that Plebian is significantly more intelligent than the average WotC poster.

[Plebian]

unless your party is eternally able to focus all their attacks on a single monster it's just moderately useful at best.

Oh, you mean like with solo monsters?

mmm, yes, monsters that crop up once every dozen or so encounters at most are definitely a good baseline for determining the use of an at-will

truly you understand the system in question

[Plebian]

The same I expect from every power: that when you use it, people can look and say "Oh look, he used a power there!" For all any observer can tell, you punched the enemy and then everyone else also happened to hit..

I just have to dredge this up because you were talking about a power that literally inscribes a ghostly, glowing symbol of your god onto the target and you name the ally that it grants the bonus to

it's pretty hilarious when the people trying to say negative things don't do the research even when the research is like five seconds worth of not-even work

but you can't break down doors in 4e!

[fectin]

Oh! Well, if flavor text counts, I'd guess you like 2E best. All those descriptions of the somatic comPonents of spells means that there's TONS more effects there than in later editions.
Besides, dnd has nothing on cops and robbers; when I play that, I go on and on about how cool my gun is, so clearly that's the most memorable system.

[Plebian]

Oh! Well, if flavor text counts, I'd guess you like 2E best. All those descriptions of the somatic com

since he was complaining that there's no visual indicator it seemed pretty relevant; the suggestion on how the power can be used includes a visual indicator!

also flavor text is one of the best parts of 4e powers because they're suggestions about how a power can be described but they don't demand that this is the only way ever, they leave it up to player imagination. if you really want Righteous Brand to look no different than a regular melee strike there's nothing stopping you from describing it as such. it just seems a bit bland or deliberately obtuse to me.


of course the problem with somatic components is only a few classes get to play with them. to use your cops and robbers analogy it'd be like telling the other kids that they're not allowed to imagine having guns because they're not cops and only cops get the fun toys.

[fectin]

of course the problem with somatic components is only a few classes get to play with them. to use your cops and robbers analogy it'd be like telling the other kids that they're not allowed to imagine having guns because they're not cops and only cops get the fun toys.

...and then telling them that their lack of toys is just as good, because they can imagine their few remaining options however they want? Yes. It is remarkably like that.

[Psychic Robot]

This thread's new Plebian/fectin wankfest direction is mildly amusing.

[Psychic Robot]

also flavor text is one of the best parts of 4e powers because they're suggestions about how a power can be described but they don't demand that this is the only way ever, they leave it up to player imagination. if you really want Righteous Brand to look no different than a regular melee strike there's nothing stopping you from describing it as such. it just seems a bit bland or deliberately obtuse to me.

4e: the first D&D edition designed by people with imaginations for people with imaginations.

[Archmage]

Superman very well could use his super speed every single battle, and I can't figure out why he wouldn't, only that he doesn't. And yet I still want to simulate that.

Let me get this straight.

You want to simulate the kludgy trope where authors make their protagonists do incredibly stupid and/or inefficient things without an explanation as to why--when anyone in the audience with two brain cells is asking things like "why doesn't he just use his super strength?" Because that's the kind of shit that makes me want to scream at my television. Like people splitting up in horror movies or building AI capable of turning against its creators.

[Almaz]

Superman very well could use his super speed every single battle, and I can't figure out why he wouldn't, only that he doesn't. And yet I still want to simulate that. Fighters should have some limited abilities they can use when they want to pull out the stops.

There are comics and cartoons where Superman decides to do just that.

Though I will note the main reason he doesn't accelerate very fast is, aside from it not being an iconic part of his powerset (he's generally only so-so fast compared to, say, the Flash, who can move at significantly higher fractions of C, usually), he spends most of his time Intimidating people, which cannot be done when you are faster than the eye can see.

[DSMatticus]

Yes, if you look at it from the perspective of wanting to do something that breaks immersion and models "plot-relevant character stupidity", martial daily/encounters are great for just that. WoF is a little better (significantly better), because that can just be explained by the chaotic nature of a fight without breaking immersion.

The difference is "you've been awesome once today. You can't be awesome again until you've rested eight hours." "But... it was just a sword swing. Can't I just... swing the sword like that again?" vs... "You have a chance to be awesome, and do so. You don't know when your opponent will give you an opportunity to be awesome again."

[Maxus]

~Thor~ "Well, I threw Mjolnir. That wraps it up for today."

~Cu Chulainn~ "Welp, Gae Bolg hit. Guess I'll hit the hay."

Although in fairness, Gae Bolg would be an encounter power. Seeing as how it had to be cut out of the target's body. Didn't that take ten minutes or something?

[FatR]

Let me get this straight.

You want to simulate the kludgy trope where authors make their protagonists do incredibly stupid and/or inefficient things without an explanation as to why--when anyone in the audience with two brain cells is asking things like "why doesn't he just use his super strength?" Because that's the kind of shit that makes me want to scream at my television. Like people splitting up in horror movies or building AI capable of turning against its creators.

Yeah. This trope shoud fucking die. Kids in elementary school can see how stupid it is. The only reason it persist at all is low writer quality. Emulating it is insulting to the players' intelligence.

[PhoneLobster]

Yeah. This trope shoud fucking die. Kids in elementary school can see how stupid it is. The only reason it persist at all is low writer quality. Emulating it is insulting to the players' intelligence.

And emulating it is what WoF does. Which really confuses me because that leaves Sword Slinger in a really wierd place straddling both sides of a fence where he LIKES a bad kludgey trope... but dislikes one of the better mechanics to emulate that trope.

(note: I'm not saying WoF is good, it's fucking awful, because the trope/goal is fucking awful, but seriously if you WANT "Why isn't super man using his heat vision right now/this entire fight?" to be in your game that is seriously basically everything WoF right then and there.)

It's sorta like he just said he thinks 1-20 random number generators are awesome but he refuses to have anything to do with 1d20.

[MfA]

The difference is "you've been awesome once today. You can't be awesome again until you've rested eight hours." "But... it was just a sword swing. Can't I just... swing the sword like that again?" vs... "You have a chance to be awesome, and do so. You don't know when your opponent will give you an opportunity to be awesome again."

A bullshit explanation can be made up to support any mechanics, but some bullshit rubs people the wrong way more than others.

Daily/encounter powers for martial types do that for me ... WoF as well. I have no problem with Vancian magic though, go figure. Hell, I'd find WoF acceptable more palatable for magic as well.

I think ToB got recharge mechanics right for martial types, spend a round to catch your breath and you're good to go (as for the hated limitation of preparing a manoeuvre only once, a feat to allow you to take one manoeuvre one extra time which could be taken multiple times would take the edge off that without resulting in too much spamming).

[Lago PARANOIA]

I think ToB got recharge mechanics right for martial types, spend a round to catch your breath and you're good to go (as for the hated limitation of preparing a manoeuvre only once, a feat to allow you to take one manoeuvre one extra time which could be taken multiple times would take the edge off that without resulting in too much spamming).

I found the ToB recharge mechanics lame and retarded. Yes, very powerful, but as far as 'spare fighters from the drudgery of I full attack it!' it fell way short of the mark. I don't find scripts very interesting and the only vaguely interesting or tactical choice in the system was for Warblades who had a mix of strikes and defense-enhancers: should I recharge my offensive powers to spam them at the cost of being open for a round?

[DragonChild]

Any post on "Does 4e suck or not?" is OBVIOUSLY off-topic for this thread. So can you, you know, take it to one of the DOZENS of other threads on that subject? Anyone who doesn't, either side, is just obviously trolling.

[Username17]

To try to get this on track again, Hasbro's web page only has one thing in its D&D section that even has 4th edition trade dress on it, and those are dice.

As far as Hasbro seems to care, the D&D starter set is the 3rd edition starter set.

-Username17

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
I believe I culled out at least most of the "Why the edition you like SUCKS!" derailment.

Keep it that way.
[/TGFBS]

[Plebian]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
I believe I culled out at least most of the "Why the edition you like SUCKS!" derailment.

Keep it that way.
[/TGFBS]

ahahahaha are you serious? 99% of this thread is people making thinly veiled or not veiled at all attacks on 4e. most of the time there's not even a pretense of discussion about new additions.

here have some examples:

Yeah. This trope shoud fucking die. Kids in elementary school can see how stupid it is. The only reason it persist at all is low writer quality. Emulating it is insulting to the players' intelligence.

All those nerf-patches are further evidence 4E is just a WoW wanna-be.

The 3e versions of alignment were bad, but the 4e versions are worse. I recall Mike Mearls not even being able to list the five alignments off the top of his head in an interview. I can't wait to see how they do "dark" morality.

Vampire is now a character class in Heroes of Shadow.

Will werewolf not be far behind? Does anyone else see "Copulate" as a daily utility power?

Ha. Whoa. The WotC forums are exploding. The latest batch of stealth errata is even more unpopular than the item rarity rules.

I can't wait until everyone realizes what an incompetent Mike Mearls is. The light is slowly but surely dawning on them.

It would also be better than Diablo 2. Simply by not being Diablo 2.

Diablo 2 is more tactically in depth than 4E is though; and you can actually fight a fiend lord without having to spend..... hours on the encounter.

Also, the character abilities in Diablo 2 are much more game affecting than most 4E powers. Characters don't get AoE crowd control in 4E in the 1st third of their power growth (barbarian fear, necro slow, sorc slow, zon ranged, assassin traps); they don't get the ability to bring in allies (necro pets, zon pet, druid pets); or actually benefit allies who are nearby them (druid pet auras, paladin auras, barbarian shouts).

Seriously, copying D2 into an accurate depiction of the vidja game could have made a decent tabletop port. Which could have made for a more interesting and potentially more balanced game than anything that Mike Mearls and the assclowns that worked on 4E came up with.

Sure players couldn't break down a wall, or climb a fence; but at least in an actual fight they could do stuff that mattered and more importantly that you cared about.

and this is just the past few pages. so it's kinda silly to pretend that you want this thread to be not about slamming one particular edition when that's been its point from the beginning.

hell the initial post had:

So yeah, what the heck IS going on with 4E. Enquiring minds want to know. What was the result of the Essentials experimentation, what is going on with their apparently rapidly shrinking schedule and general output in general?

Who is being fired?

What are they up to and is it 5E announcement betting pool time already?

so yeah please don't imply you're looking for fair, informed discussion on 4e in a thread started specifically to attack it as an inferior edition.

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
I believe I culled out at least most of the "Why the edition you like SUCKS!" derailment.

Keep it that way.
[/TGFBS]

ahahahaha are you serious? 99% of this thread is people making thinly veiled or not veiled at all attacks on 4e. most of the time there's not even a pretense of discussion about new additions.

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Say "Good night!", Gracie.
[/The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

... and its "editions", dipshit.

[Leress]

Here is the latest review of Daggerdale:

http://www.rpgamer.com/games/dnd/dagger ... trev1.html

[Doom]

That's so sad that they could screw up a 4e computer/video game. Crap license titles happen,though (there was an Activision M:TG title that was extra bad)...anyone else have a 4e game in development?

[Leress]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinte ... Studios%29

This game is coming out soon.