The reason why fighters will never have nice things.

K · Post by K » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:17 am

Someone needs to explain "DMF" and "VAH" to me. I don't know the terms.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:18 am

"Dumb Melee Fighter" and "Vanilla Action Hero"

K · Post by K » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:21 am

Fuchs wrote:"Dumb Melee Fighter" and "Vanilla Action Hero"

Aaaa, right. Those terms I know.

Guyr Adamantine · Post by **Guyr Adamantine** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:26 pm

Vnonymous wrote:You've also got to compete against the fact that the VAH is really, really cool in the eyes of most people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRT4S9G27VE is what most people think of when they think of high level martial characters, for better or worse, and it is a concept that is really cool. Ezio can compete at all levels of modern society or any story set in the ostensibly real world, and most people, as well as even most dnd promotional material, don't really think that he can't compete at high levels in dnd either(Making Drizzt level 17 deserves at least some of the blame).

Screw them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZWLpxTfnB8

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:41 pm

Vnonymous wrote:You've also got to compete against the fact that the VAH is really, really cool in the eyes of most people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRT4S9G27VE is what most people think of when they think of high level martial characters, for better or worse, and it is a concept that is really cool.

I see your Assassin's Creed and raise you DMC, GoW, KH, Darksiders, and, well, almost every popular fighting game that's not Assassin's Creed. In fact, AC is noticeable in the crowd exactly because it tones down crazy shit.

So, no, there is a sufficient reason to believe that most people do not think that VAHs are the epitome of coolness, and their numbers will only continue to decrease with advance of SFX. And those who believe Ezio to be a high-level character, are as flat-out wrong as those who consider Conan a high-level character.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:46 pm

K wrote: That's above and beyond the fact that some people want to be able to kill powerful monsters with some sort of skill-themed abilities and definitely don't want to be part-monster or just a pair of hands for a magic weapon. That may not be a reasonable desire, but people do want it.

Then they should embrace anime, rather than deride it, because anime is the only medium where you can learn to cut battleships in half by doing enough push-ups. Western fantasy more or less tells this desire to fuck off. Noted characters from Malazan listed above? All of them either have artifacts or are not human. In Runelords, another fantasy series that features uber-fighters, all the uberness is created by magical buffs.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:50 pm

FatR wrote:
Vnonymous wrote:You've also got to compete against the fact that the VAH is really, really cool in the eyes of most people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRT4S9G27VE is what most people think of when they think of high level martial characters, for better or worse, and it is a concept that is really cool.
I see your Assassin's Creed and raise you DMC, GoW, KH, Darksiders, and, well, almost every popular fighting game that's not Assassin's Creed.

Uh...doesn't Kratos from God of War count as a Vanilla Action Hero under Lago's definition? He doesn't really have any "plot fucking powers" and he mostly relies on close range fighting, which Lago considers the domain of the VAH.

Stabbing mega-orcs with a mega-sword isn't necessarily different from stabbing orcs with a sword.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:28 pm

hogarth wrote: Uh...doesn't Kratos from God of War count as a Vanilla Action Hero under Lago's definition? He doesn't really have any "plot fucking powers" and he mostly relies on close range fighting, which Lago considers the domain of the VAH.

Stabbing mega-orcs with a mega-sword isn't necessarily different from stabbing orcs with a sword.

Kratos is pretty much the 4E epic demigod.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:43 pm

Swordslinger wrote:
hogarth wrote: Uh...doesn't Kratos from God of War count as a Vanilla Action Hero under Lago's definition? He doesn't really have any "plot fucking powers" and he mostly relies on close range fighting, which Lago considers the domain of the VAH.

Stabbing mega-orcs with a mega-sword isn't necessarily different from stabbing orcs with a sword.
Kratos is pretty much the 4E epic demigod.

I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with my assessment.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:47 pm

Kratos isn't a VAH; he's got plenty of non-vanilla divinely inspired powers to maul people with, so at worst he's a mostly melee fighter running off of a divine power source. I'd argue that his archetype isn't really all that limited; as a pseudo-mythological heroic demi-god you've got the room to acquire whatever power set you likely need for the situations he needs to handle. Thing is, "the situation" in God Of War games is stabbing things right in the face until they're no longer a problem. Kratos' limiting factor is that he's in an action game, not a lack of thematic headroom.

Novembermike · Post by **Novembermike** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:23 pm

FatR wrote: Noted characters from Malazan listed above? All of them either have artifacts or are not human.

Not quite. Dassem wields a magic sword, but even when he was fully human and carrying mundane weapons he was supposed to be almost impossibly strong and skilled. A half giant warrior is noted as a badass because he managed to force Dassem back a step before being killed and that's when Dassem is 100% "normal". Karsa might be a literal giant with special abilities, but he's almost killed by a single punch from a "normal" human that was a powerful warrior. Kalam is stripped of his weapons and armor before he takes on the 50 assassin mages. There are a number of other examples like this. There's also the Segulah, which are entirely mundane warriors that explicitly do not use any magic for honor reasons, and it's implied that their grand master could rip apart any of the aforementioned characters.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:55 pm

hogarth wrote: I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with my assessment.

I agreed with it. The 4E epic is pretty much a VAH style, where you swing super swords at super orcs that happen to be pit fiends and demon princes. And that's what Kratos does. Just rushes crap and kicks the shit out of it, melee style.

K · Post by K » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:23 pm

FatR wrote:
K wrote: That's above and beyond the fact that some people want to be able to kill powerful monsters with some sort of skill-themed abilities and definitely don't want to be part-monster or just a pair of hands for a magic weapon. That may not be a reasonable desire, but people do want it.
Then they should embrace anime, rather than deride it, because anime is the only medium where you can learn to cut battleships in half by doing enough push-ups. Western fantasy more or less tells this desire to fuck off. Noted characters from Malazan listed above? All of them either have artifacts or are not human. In Runelords, another fantasy series that features uber-fighters, all the uberness is created by magical buffs.

That's the thing... some people don't want to cut battleships in half. They want to shoot arrows into the chinks in a dragon's adamantine-strong armor rather than blasting through it.

Watch the battle in Willow where Madmartigan kills the dragon by hopping on it's neck and making it blow up its own head. That's what they want. At no point do they want to be forced into a concept where they shoot energy bolts like Lion-O of the Thundercats.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:59 am

Then they should embrace anime, rather than deride it,

no anime is shit and it should be derided with all rageful expediency

people who hate anime don't want to cut battleships in half because that is seriously dumb as hell. here's the deal: people want to be able to fight dragons without flying around and shooting lasers. how do you do that? you give them HP and damage enough to take that dragon on. you might even be able to convince them to get a little fire resistance because that's how tough they are. but when they see "fighter" they want to be the guy who swings his sword, kills a bunch of mooks, and then beats the dragon to death.

you don't need to be throwing energy waves at your enemy to do that.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:29 am

Psychic Robot wrote:
Then they should embrace anime, rather than deride it,
no anime is shit and it should be derided with all rageful expediency

people who hate anime don't want to cut battleships in half because that is seriously dumb as hell. here's the deal: people want to be able to fight dragons without flying around and shooting lasers. how do you do that? you give them HP and damage enough to take that dragon on. you might even be able to convince them to get a little fire resistance because that's how tough they are. but when they see "fighter" they want to be the guy who swings his sword, kills a bunch of mooks, and then beats the dragon to death.

you don't need to be throwing energy waves at your enemy to do that.

...but this is the problem. After a certain point, "dumbass with stick" really doesn't compare to the divine avatars, shapeshifting spellcasters, and dudes who can use math to make the laws of physics cry. Yes, we can pump the numbers, but after a certain point I'm not really sure how the hell the man with a stick realistically goes up against a highly intelligent flying magic using lizard who can see him coming and drops a giant rock on his head from out of bow range.

Also, how the fuck is cutting a battleship in half any less idiotic than being a dude in a bathrobe who can randomly make fire from bat shit?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:12 am

...but this is the problem. After a certain point, "dumbass with stick" really doesn't compare to the divine avatars, shapeshifting spellcasters, and dudes who can use math to make the laws of physics cry. Yes, we can pump the numbers, but after a certain point I'm not really sure how the hell the man with a stick realistically goes up against a highly intelligent flying magic using lizard who can see him coming and drops a giant rock on his head from out of bow range.

well yes that's a problem so you can either force players into a supernatural archetype that's not dumb (make the fighter become a paladin or a berserker, not some kind of nancy-boy shonen-jump weeaboo wank character) or you can write the game so that the fighter has magic items that compensate for his weakness (except you need to spell these rules out specifically so that the DM realizes that the fighter's going to suck) or you can just not write the game where wizards can gate in 40 HD monstrosities while transforming into dragons

also as a minor nitpick you can probably give fighters the ability to fire a bow ultra far and most people probably won't care. so the fighter could shoot down the dragon from the ground.

Also, how the fuck is cutting a battleship in half any less idiotic than being a dude in a bathrobe who can randomly make fire from bat shit?

well magic in D&D is pretty dumb imo but if we're going to get into this particular debate: magic doesn't exist so we don't have a metric to base it on in real life. fighting does. that's why magic can do bullshit while fighting cannot. when someone sees the wizard shoot a fireball, he says "oh, it's magic, that's cool." when someone sees the fighter shoot a laser from his sword, he says "what that didn't make any sense, what's going on here"

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:40 am

You aren't arguing against anime abilities. You're arguing against anime aesthetic. It's different. So, ignoring whether your guy looks like Cloud Strife or Beowulf, you're going to need the ability to cut through a battleship if you want to fight a dragon, because dragonscale is really, really tough. Or at the very least, you're going to need some alternative rules for fighting D&D dragons, which are immensely strong, nigh-unto invincible, flying, magic using creatures with no major weaknesses. You could do something with grapple rules and striking it in just the right spot to make its firebreath not work right anymore, like in Willow (I assume, I'm seriously just going off of the description in the forum right now, because I have no idea myself). You could also go the White Wolf method for fighting overwhelmingly powerful beings:

Rules for fighting dragons

You lose.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:58 am

like I said give the fighter fire resistance or something most people won't freak out about that. and stabbing the dragon in the throat to keep it from breathing fire works pretty well in a not-anime

You aren't arguing against anime abilities. You're arguing against anime aesthetic.

actually I believe the two are one in the same

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:14 am

actually I believe the two are one in the same

Your belief is objectively false. These words have definitions. They are different from one another.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:43 am

no anime is shit and it should be derided with all rageful expediency

Anime is a format, not a genre. It'd be like saying that Movies are shit or Comic Books are shit (in the context of how they relate to tabletop gaming).

Psychic Robot hates Shonen stuff, he just doesn't know it (because he's ignorant).

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:58 am

Your belief is objectively false.

your belief is objectively fat. anime aesthetics are inherently attached to anime mechanics.

Psychic Robot hates Shonen stuff, he just doesn't know it (because he's ignorant).

no actually I do know the term I just don't bother to differentiate because I don't give one hair off of a weeaboo's cellulite-pocked ass. I'm well aware what shonen is (in fact I learned what the term meant when I learned what shonen-ai meant which is something else altogether) but shonen shit is mainstream anime in america, meaning that I'm going to keep calling it anime as long as I please.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:21 am

And there's another for the ignore list.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:53 am

I'd not have thought people were still so ignorant of anime.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:31 pm

no actually I do know the term I just don't bother to differentiate because I don't give one hair off of a weeaboo's cellulite-pocked ass.

Alright, then you're willfully ignorant of what you're talking about.
You can decide if that's better or worse.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:38 pm

PR just says that because he thinks it's good Trolling fodder and he is a self admitted lying troll.

The bastard probably spends his evenings watching some of the shittiest plotless fan service maid robot cat girl hentai strike witch ninja based modern anime he can dreg from the depths of the internet, in between trolling anime fans.