The reason why fighters will never have nice things.

[Psychic Robot]

Alright, then you're willfully ignorant of what you're talking about.

no see I'm just not caring. I'm quite not-ignorant of the term, I just don't care. if you'd like we can debate this in the general forum but let's not derail this thread any longer.

PR just says that because he thinks it's good Trolling fodder and he is a self admitted lying troll.

The bastard probably spends his evenings watching some of the shittiest plotless fan service maid robot cat girl hentai strike witch ninja based modern anime he can dreg from the depths of the internet, in between trolling anime fans.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

no anime is shit and it should be derided with all rageful expediency

Anime is a format, not a genre. It'd be like saying that Movies are shit or Comic Books are shit (in the context of how they relate to tabletop gaming).

Dude, have you seen any movies lately? Movies ARE shit.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Anime, movies, and comic books, as well as books and plays, are, as mediums, are bad for tabletop games to try to emulate because those things have only one possible story; a good tabletop game should be capable of many possible stories. This is, however, not what people complain about when they complain about something being "too anime!"

[Midnight_v]

Anime, movies, and comic books, as well as books and plays, are, as mediums, are bad for tabletop games to try to emulate because those things have only one possible story; a good tabletop game should be capable of many possible stories. This is, however, not what people complain about when they complain about something being "too anime!"

No... it isn't, at first they were complaining about something new and different entering into thier make believe. It's aesthetic AND Mechanics were different. They didn't want the eastern themed flavor. It exacerbated the problem when anime rolled right over into fantasy perfectly, shitting on the Lord of the rings style grognardism that some people were in love with. It was the old "New is bad" paradigm and they looked for anything they didn't like as being "Too Anime".
What you're looking at when someone says that is simple ignorance... okay sometime its willful ignorance and refusal to change, but thats whats up.
I though it was something different, but then I relized the ignore things like Berserk! (the movie not comic, which I know shit all about and neither would the people who hate anime cause they're not picking up manga for reserch.) in favor of bitching about things like ... uhm... i can't even remeber it Goku and the gang.
-----------------------------------------

I think there needs top be space enough in a game for both the option to shoot lazers from their sword AND to just toe-to-toe a dragon because my wallet is the one that says "BadMuthafucka Berserking" on it.
Its just that the dudes who want one are selfish fucks who want to shit all over the other, and that is want needs to be capped.
You should be able to play a Tome fighter, or a Gish, or a LazerSwordsman (tob), or whatever the fuck and not have people shit bricks cause you shot lazers OR because you didn't.
Btw...Ranged destruction of flying besties should never have been separated from being a melee monster, that damage output should have been folded somehow from the begining.

[FatR]

That's the thing... some people don't want to cut battleships in half. They want to shoot arrows into the chinks in a dragon's adamantine-strong armor rather than blasting through it.

These people are stupid and self-deceiving. They want to have inhuman aiming skills, necessary to hit the chinks, and super strength necessary for their to do fatal damage to a Huge dragon, without admitting that their characters have superpowers. I also have a very severe doubt that most of these people actually have investment in their self-deceptive concept, rather than following it because DnD always have done things this way.

I'm frankly tired of crap like this. Either stick to the bounds of realistic fighting skill and admit that being seven foot tall and appropriately strong is nearly a gamebreaker, while anything bigger and buffer will kill your character in a straight-up fight. Or admit that you have superpowers. Even if they come from a class-mandated magical bling, although I don't like this decision. Or do former for the low levels and latter thereafter.

Watch the battle in Willow where Madmartigan kills the dragon by hopping on it's neck and making it blow up its own head. That's what they want. At no point do they want to be forced into a concept where they shoot energy bolts like Lion-O of the Thundercats.

Willow is exactly the sort of fantasy where fighters are incomparably inferior to spellcasters, and basically needs the plot to be on their side all the time. So, should we listen to grognards who want fighters to be weak and boring, partially because they always were so, partially because these grognards grew up on movies with shitty SFX?

[hogarth]

So, should we listen to grognards who want fighters to be weak and boring, partially because they always were so, partially because these grognards grew up on movies with shitty SFX?

I don't care if you listen to them, but I believe a business that actually wants to, you know, make money, should generally produce a product that appeals to enough people to be financially successful.

A product like Exalted might be moderately successful, but that doesn't mean that turning D&D into an Exalted-wannabee is a great move.

[FatR]

I don't care if you listen to them, but I believe a business that actually wants to, you know, make money, should generally produce a product that appeals to enough people to be financially successful.

A product like Exalted might be moderately successful, but that doesn't mean that turning D&D into an Exalted-wannabee is a great move.

DnD powerlevel is higher than that of Exalted, whether we compare theoretical extremes or regions where these games can remain more or less playable. It is just in DnD you arbitrarily can't play with the big boys if your shtick is based on swording. Even though your character is even drawn in a way, that makes average anime characters' outfits look like a pinnacle of realism, ever since 3.0. Fuck, some editions blatantly assumed that wizards are supposed to leave everyone else in the dust at two-digit levels.

Now, note that Exalted, being piece of shit it is, was moderately successful on pretending to allow players to play powerful characters alone.

[hogarth]

Now, note that Exalted, being piece of shit it is, was moderately successful on pretending to allow players to play powerful characters alone.

That's what I meant -- a game where everyone is Superman-level vs. a game where some people are stuck at Hawkman-level.

[Swordslinger]

So, ignoring whether your guy looks like Cloud Strife or Beowulf, you're going to need the ability to cut through a battleship if you want to fight a dragon, because dragonscale is really, really tough.

You talk like dragonscale is something that exists in real life...

[sabs]

Here's the thing I don't understand.

From Day 1 of D&D there are Magical Swords, Magical Armor, Magical Shields, Magical Rods of Control, Rings of fuckyouverymuch.

A fighter is supposed to have Magical ARmor and Magical Weapons, and Boots of Speed, bag of Holding, Rod of Control Dragonkind, Ring of blah, Brooch of Magical Protection, etc etc.

These are a core part of the game. But people want to get rid of the magic items, yet not touch the spells at all, and then complain the Fighter isn't powerful compared to the mage.

That's like Having a Marine, and taking away his M16 rifle, saying he can only use his combat knife, and complaining he's worthless against the CombatDroid with dual Machinegun mounts.

[tzor]

It's aesthetic AND Mechanics were different. They didn't want the eastern themed flavor. It exacerbated the problem when anime rolled right over into fantasy perfectly, shitting on the Lord of the rings style grognardism that some people were in love with. It was the old "New is bad" paradigm and they looked for anything they didn't like as being "Too Anime".

I've never fully understood the argument that anime is bad merely because it is eastern. You could easily take any major eastern plot driver, take off the eastern fluff wrapping, wrap it in western fluff wrapping and volia you have a western setting. (Literally the movie "Magnificent Seven" was stolen from the Japanese "Seven Samuari.")

And very few Tolkien fanboys were really playing in the world Tolkien designed, which was a world of extreeme magical scarcity. They had simply kit based their own ideas by selectively cherrypicking various legends here and there and anything een slightly different would get their ire.

[tzor]

You talk like dragonscale is something that exists in real life...

You talk like you have never seen a tortoise before.

[tzor]

These are a core part of the game. But people want to get rid of the magic items, yet not touch the spells at all, and then complain the Fighter isn't powerful compared to the mage.

No, it's really far worse. Since the start of the game people have been touchingthe spells ... in the other direction. Spell components, vancian spell memorization, and various forms of methods to spoil spell casters casting spells were removed over time in an attempt to make caster even more uber in the name of streamlining.

It's important to understand that AD&D was in many ways a game of oil and vinegar with a lot of systems that didn't seem like they went well together. The caster/fighter was a lot like the tortoise and the hare, with the caster being the hare. Since fighters never suffered from fatigue in the game, they were the tortoise.

Items were always a core part of the game for all classes. Magic items less so (because if it were not, the dwarf with his racial ability to FUBAR any magic item not directly related to combat would have been a laughing stock) but still they were generally figured a natural part in a character's progression.

[Gx1080]

The problem is that putting on the same board the people who depends on magic items and the people who don't depends on magic items on the same place and expect them to be somewhat balanced against each other is really hard to do because you can't guarantee that the magic dependant people will get all the magic items that they will need.

About flavor for Martial classes, I would use the fluff of the Tome of Battle. It seems to me like a mix of Eastern and Western mythologies, which works well enough in a kitchen sink setting like D&D.

It also introduces (albeit partially) the concept of Ki, which can be used to justify daily powers and Rituals.

The problem with playing D&D as a LotR game is that when there's a bunch of Gandalfs face-rolling everything....it isn't fun for the non-Gandalf guys.

[Prak]

Ok, I really think this suggestion sounds dumb, but it could help (so please point out precisely why it's terrible other than "it's boring"), but what if damage output were more directly tied to class and level? So a human berserker 17 does X damage, while a gnome berserker 17 does X damage, maybe a bit less, and a human wizard 17 does X damage with his most powerful spells, and then whatever the character is holding just lays effects (special and mechanical) on top of that. So if the human berserker isn't holding anything, he breaks bones and lays down fatigue as he brutally pummels his opponent for 58 damage a round, and if he's holding a longsword of sharpness, he lowers con, severs limbs and still does 58 damage a round, while the wizard casts fireball, and sets shit on fire for 40 damage a round.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Plus no one likes the idea that their warrior is only barely competent just because they have a magic sword. I know I never really liked magic items when I got into D&D, mainly because they never seemed like a part of my character. Grag the Angry Orc Barbarian should be known for his crazy berserk rages where he ignores wounds and smashes shit, not for having the +5 sword of Look at Me, I'm in the Party too.

[hogarth]

No, it's really far worse. Since the start of the game people have been touchingthe spells ... in the other direction. Spell components, vancian spell memorization, and various forms of methods to spoil spell casters casting spells were removed over time in an attempt to make caster even more uber in the name of streamlining.

Some things about spellcasting were made better. Some were made worse (e.g. Polymorph Other, Polymorph Any Object, Chromatic Orb). It's all a rich tapestry.

[sabs]

Plus no one likes the idea that their warrior is only barely competent just because they have a magic sword. I know I never really liked magic items when I got into D&D, mainly because they never seemed like a part of my character. Grag the Angry Orc Barbarian should be known for his crazy berserk rages where he ignores wounds and smashes shit, not for having the +5 sword of Look at Me, I'm in the Party too.

Then don't play D&D past level 5.
You don't want D&D, if that's how you feel.

D&D was always supposed to have the Sword of Omens, The swords of Del and Tiger.

And Grag the Angry Orc barbarian is known for his crazy berserk rages, while wielding the sword of holycrapinmypants.

[tzor]

D&D was always supposed to have the Sword of Omens, The swords of Del and Tiger.

Yea, what's Shadara the Castrator without her Sword of Sharpness.

[sabs]

Shadara the Messy Castrator?

[Prak]

Shadara the Momentarily Pleasant Before Sudden Pain Castrator?

[Josh_Kablack]

Tzor, trying to pass your pet Northen Wood Turtle off as some kind of Tortoise is the worst piece of Herp derp I've seen you try yet.

[CapnTthePirateG]

My point is that the character's abilities should come first, then the weapon. I mean, what the hell kind of wizard is known for having the staff of fire first, than being a wizard second?

[Swordslinger]

You talk like dragonscale is something that exists in real life...

You talk like you have never seen a tortoise before. :tongue:

It doesn't take superhuman strength to be able to be able to kill a tortoise.

[sabs]

High level fighters

Can literally handle having a dragon breath on them and live.
Are so fast, that they get 5 attacks to the average person's 1.

THat is what they are known for. The Sword of Omens just lets them get to hurt the Demon they are fighting. For fucks sake, even Frodo has goddamn Sting! Magical weapons and stuff are /part of the genre/
The game is 'balanced' hee.. with the idea that Warriors and Rogues get magical dooheekees.