Adult Stem Cells are Treating Thousands of Patients Now

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Sun May 22, 2011 9:57 pm

Kaelik wrote:Embryos are not anyone, they are things.

Africans are not anyone.
Jews are not anyone.
Embryos are not anyone.

OK, I'm not African, but two out of three ain't bad and as a former embryo I can and will say ... FUCK YOU.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Sun May 22, 2011 10:04 pm

Koumei wrote:A. If you only kill one identical twin and not the other, what does it constitute?

If you kill it's a killing. I would hope the English language is consistent.

Koumei wrote:B. Are the majority of women committing manslaughter on a monthly basis?

An unfertilized egg is not an embryo.
Manslaughter implies an unlawful killing.
Every miscarrge and every unimplanted embryo is tragic; doubly so for the poor woman who is trying to conceive.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Sun May 22, 2011 10:08 pm

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I bet Tzor is jerking off to this thread. RIGHT NOW.

I'm sorry, Count, you loose your bet. Anger is a big fucking turnoff to me.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun May 22, 2011 10:35 pm

Tzor wrote:Every miscarrge and every unimplanted embryo is tragic

Wow. That's... retarded. So you think that a successful IVF treatment is fourteen tragedies and not one happy mother? Really? That's the particular brand of crazy you are doubling down on today?

-Username17

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun May 22, 2011 10:38 pm

tzor wrote:[*]An unfertilized egg is not an embryo.[*]

But it has human dna and the capability of becoming a human. Which by your arguments apparently make it a human. Hell we can take your rather poorly thought out and incredibly insulting "as a former embryo" post and replace all the embryo's with unfertilized eggs and it still makes sense, well as little as it did in the first place anyway.

*Manslaughter implies an unlawful killing.

Non-sequitur much? You tell Koumei that things with human DNA and the potential to become humans ARE humans. She says hey, that makes ovulation man slaughter! You produce a non-sequitur. Sorry Tzor, but this just highlights the inconsistencies of your ludicrous and self contradictory beliefs. If you define human life in that manner then what Koumei is describing is a human death, and telling us what manslaughter is doesn't actually address whether or not that "human death" was in fact manslaughter.

Every miscarrge and every unimplanted embryo is tragic; doubly so for the poor woman who is trying to conceive.

T ripply so when every unimplanted embryo and miscarriage is a case to go before the coroner or other state official to be investigated in detail to determine if it is manslaughter or murder, and then potentially followed by charges and jail time for the distressed woman.

Because under Tzor's ideas this is the UNAVOIDABLE outcome of such situations. If that bundle of snotty little cells is a human with real rights as a human then some of those cases of failed implantations and miscarraiges ARE in fact MURDER as women will be trying to cause them to gain the benefits of abortion, and in his world will need to be PUNISHED as murderers. That means that ALL such cases need to be investigated by authorities. It also means that any negligence in similar cases becomes manslaughter so among other things women not knowing they are pregnant, doing something they shouldn't and losing the very early pregnancy are committing the CRIME of manslaughter.

Do the crime, do the time. Tzor's camp gets VERY uncomfortable when you point out the ultimate outcome of their stupid stupid beliefs...

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon May 23, 2011 12:18 am

Tzor wrote:Africans are not anyone.
Jews are not anyone.
Embryos are not anyone.

I don't have any fucking idea what you were trying to say here. Kaelik: "Embryo's aren't people." "Oh yeah, well then Africans and Jews aren't people either!" I know that's not what you tried to say, but that's what you actually said. Let's chalk this up to a complete misunderstanding of what Kaelik actually said. There are actual arguments for why embryos are not 'anyone,' there are no good arguments for why 'Africans' and 'Jews' aren't, and that's the distinction between what you said and Kaelik said. This is... sort of a Strawman? Something similar.

Tzor wrote:former embryo

You are a former sperm. You are a former egg. You are a former collection of organic compounds which became a sperm or egg. You are a former beef stew that your parents happened to eat and break down into the nutrients their bodies used to create those organic compounds. You are a former cow that went into said beef stew. Ergo, it follows logically that cows are potential future human beings, and it is morally wrong to kill them. As a matter of fact, it logically follows that pretty much anything you eat could be a future human being, so eating is murder.

Think of the babies, Tzor - stop eating. For them.

Tzor wrote:If you kill it's a killing. I would hope the English language is consistent.

Koumei is saying: If embryos are people, and identical twins come from the same embryo, are they the same person? If they are the same person, what does killing one of them constitute? Half-murder? Assault?

It's a challenge to your definition of personhood - if just being an embryo is what matters for personhood, then twins are literally a part of the same person, in the same way your arms are a part of you.

Tzor wrote: * An unfertilized egg is not an embryo.

An unfertilized egg is a potential future embryo, and an embryo is a potential future person. If you're willing to extend the chain one step back, why not two? Or three? Or indefinitely. You say embryos are people because they are potential future people. Unfertilized eggs are potential future embryos which are potential future people. Etc, etc.

Tzor wrote:Manslaughter implies an unlawful killing.

So murder by ovulation is a lawful killing, then? Gotcha. I'll write my congressmen and make sure we get that one on the books.

Tzor wrote:Every miscarrge and every unimplanted embryo is tragic; doubly so for the poor woman who is trying to conceive.

Every miscarriage and every unimplanted embryo is tragic; ONLY so for the poor woman who is trying to conceive. (Fixed that for you.)

For women trying to NOT get pregnant, an unimplanted embryo is awesome. And a miscarriage slightly less awesome, but still pretty lucky for them. The embryo that has been miscarried or unimplanted, however, does not give a shit because it has no brain and cannot appreciate tragedy. Or fortune. Or any of that shit. Tragedy is not an intrinsic property of the universe - tragedy is a property of our perceptions of things.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Mon May 23, 2011 2:12 am

DSMatticus wrote:I don't have any fucking idea what you were trying to say here.

He is trying to say he is so subconsciously racist that he doesn't even realize Africans and Jews might be a tad insulted to have their very status as humans degraded to the point that it is totally equivalent to that of a tiny cluster of four or eight snotty zygote cells.

Really.

For women trying to NOT get pregnant

Tzor doesn't understand the concept and would certainly be against it anyway.

Better to point out that due to HIS preferred policies and definitions women who ARE trying to get pregnant are going to be the subject of potential criminal investigations and prosecutions due to miscarriages.

Because he certainly has no sympathy for women who are going around having recreational sex. They can suffer and burn as witches as far as Tzor is concerned.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon May 23, 2011 2:26 am

Life begins as soon as the woman can be blamed for everything.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon May 23, 2011 2:51 am

this thread should make everyone involved feel bad

Count Arioch the 28th · Mon May 23, 2011 2:55 am

Psychic Robot wrote:this thread should make everyone involved feel bad

Dammit, stop saying things I agree with

Neeeek · Post by **Neeeek** » Mon May 23, 2011 6:35 am

Psychic Robot wrote:this thread should make everyone involved feel bad

Oh, I don't know. I learned some stuff about stim cell research I didn't know before. Tzor being essentially a monster is nothing new, so that's not a big deal.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon May 23, 2011 6:38 am

Same. Though he still does need to either stop vexing strangers or admit that the entire book is a load of rhino bollocks and that he's just a bigot.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon May 23, 2011 7:40 am

In my defense, someone was wrong on the internet. What am I supposed to do, walk away?

http://xkcd.com/386/

K · Post by K » Mon May 23, 2011 8:33 am

DSMatticus wrote:
Tzor wrote:Africans are not anyone.
Jews are not anyone.
Embryos are not anyone.
I don't have any fucking idea what you were trying to say here. Kaelik: "Embryo's aren't people." "Oh yeah, well then Africans and Jews aren't people either!" I know that's not what you tried to say, but that's what you actually said. Let's chalk this up to a complete misunderstanding of what Kaelik actually said. There are actual arguments for why embryos are not 'anyone,' there are no good arguments for why 'Africans' and 'Jews' aren't, and that's the distinction between what you said and Kaelik said. This is... sort of a Strawman? Something similar.

He was setting up a false equivalence, a well known fallacy. I think he believes that he was arguing from analogy that if you can remove personhood from embryos, you also can remove it from racial and cultural types using the same argument, so he's actually charging us with racism (an ad hominem fallacy, for those keeping score at home).

It's about as logical as saying "apples are fruit and red, so oranges are red because they are also fruit."

It's illogical in several other ways, but I'm too tired to fully list his failings right now.

Post by **fbmf** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:19 pm

[TGFBS]

I didn't feel like chopping up the non-politics thread (I'm behind on some grad homework), so I just deleted Tzor's post there and I am reposting here:

Tzor wrote: Adult Stem Cells Used to Save Man from Terminal Tracheal Cancer

What a story, and what a remarkable testimony of the power of adult stem cells. A 36-year-old Swedish man, diagnosed with terminal tracheal cancer, returned home this week after being given a new trachea grown entirely from his own stem cells using a synthetic scaffold in an operation that took place June 9.

“He was condemned to die,” said Paolo Macchiarini, a professor of regenerative surgery who carried out the procedure at Sweden’s Karolinska University Hospital. “We now plan to discharge him [today].”

Two days prior to the operation, surgeons took bone marrow from the patient out of which they extracted stem cells for coating the artificial trachea, the Wall Street Journal reported today.

“With the patient on the surgery table, Dr. Macchiarini and colleagues then added chemicals to the stem cells, persuading them to differentiate into tissue—such as bony cells—that make up the windpipe,” wrote the Journal’s Gautam Naik. “About 48 hours after the transplant, imaging and other studies showed appropriate cells in the process of populating the artificial windpipe, which had begun to function like a natural one. There was no rejection by the patient’s immune system, because the cells used to seed the artificial windpipe came from the patient’s own body.”

With a synthetic windpipe, because no death or donation is needed, the whole process is speeded up. “It makes all the difference,” Dr. Macchiarini told the Journal. “If the patient has a malignant tumor in the windpipe, you can’t wait months for a donor to come along.”

[/The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

Post by **fbmf** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:25 pm

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

Cynic replies to Tzor wrote: Seriously, Tzor, your argument is that just because Adult stem cells are effective, we should not study other types of stem cells?

This is a very bad analogy. But I'll say it anyway. Just because I like a ribeye doesn't mean I shouldn't eat a nice succulent Veal steak?

If you feel the need to continue the discussion, please do so here.

[/TGFBS]

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:03 am

FUCK YOU CYNIC. READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE.

This is something about someone getting their own organ not a rehash of the fucking debate about adult/embryonic.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:21 am

tzor wrote:FUCK YOU CYNIC. READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE.

This is something about someone getting their own organ not a rehash of the fucking debate about adult/embryonic.

The article has absolutely nothing to do with Abortion, so you clearly put it in the wrong thread.

Also, you can totally live without a trachea, and a lot of people do. Getting a new biological trachea is cool, but that isn't what saved the man's life. That saves the man's ability to not wander around with a really gross plastic tube sticking out of his chest. He had a malignant tumor, so what saved his life was the removal of his cancer cells. Which since it was malignant, had mostly to do with the extreme luck of it having not already spread into the spinal cord before the surgeon cut it out.

It's not "pro-life news" in any meaningful way. It's a cool advance, but you need to realize that the actual story is that people improved the quality of life of a man after his cancer surgery as a direct result of information gained from tearing up embryos. It is in short: exactly the stuff your people warn us about. Except that now that we're actually doing it, you want to take credit for it instead of condemning the supposed immorality of chopping up fetuses for pure information and using that information to improve hedonistic pleasures of mankind.

-Username17

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:02 am

I wrote about the transplant because I thought it was cool. Usually when they use stem cells to grow organs like that, they have to use human tissue as the scaffolding to shape the cells, but this case was the first time that no donor tissue was needed at all.

The cool part about that (besides the fact that it's cool

) is that there's no call for immunosuppressive drugs to prevent rejection. Hot shit.

Neeeek · Post by **Neeeek** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:42 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
The article has absolutely nothing to do with Abortion, so you clearly put it in the wrong thread.

I think he put in non-political news, actually.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:54 pm

Yeah, he did. And then it was moved. Because it's the same fucking argument as before, at the start of this thread, where he says "Look! The adult stem cell treatment, that we know how to do thanks to embryonic stem cell research, helped this guy! Isn't this great? See, I'm totally right!" and pretends it's not political. And fbmf was smart enough to see past this cunning ruse and recognise it for what it is: a rebirth of this thread.

Post by **fbmf** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:59 pm

Koumei wrote:Yeah, he did. And then it was moved. Because it's the same fucking argument as before, at the start of this thread, where he says "Look! The adult stem cell treatment, that we know how to do thanks to embryonic stem cell research, helped this guy! Isn't this great? See, I'm totally right!" and pretends it's not political. And fbmf was smart enough to see past this cunning ruse and recognise it for what it is: a rebirth of this thread.

In the interest of fairness, it was pointed out to me by a handful of folks via reporting.

Game On,
fbmf