Skyrim: thoughts?

[NineInchNall]

Except those damn spells still need to be cast repeatedly, which is just a pain in the ass, so armor still wins.

[Kaelik]

I still don't understand why all durational buffs in all video games are not set to either on giving their benefit and decreasing your maximum magicka slightly, or off, not doing anything.

Why the fuck have they not figured out that recasting the same thing whenever it wears out is the most boring stupid shitty thing that anyone ever does in any videogame. Even stupider than crafting 40,000 leather bracers to skill up.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Speaking of clothes, am I the only one who's annoyed that the items you disenchant don't stick around as a base? I want those blank necromancer's robes so I can enchant them for free alteration, dammit!

[ckafrica]

I still don't understand why all durational buffs in all video games are not set to either on giving their benefit and decreasing your maximum magicka slightly, or off, not doing anything.

Why the fuck have they not figured out that recasting the same thing whenever it wears out is the most boring stupid shitty thing that anyone ever does in any videogame. Even stupider than crafting 40,000 leather bracers to skill up.

I seem to recall that that was how it work in Dragon Age for all defensive abilities. It simply reduced your energy pool while it was active

[Doom]

Iron daggers are much more convenient for skilling up, fwiw.

[Zinegata]

Re: Spell durations for Alteration Armor spells...

Dual-Casting increases their duration, as does the Persistence perk, albeit yes it's still a bit inconvenient that you have to keep casting it every 2 minutes or so.

Speaking of clothes, am I the only one who's annoyed that the items you disenchant don't stick around as a base? I want those blank necromancer's robes so I can enchant them for free alteration, dammit!

A bit. I want to customize the enchantments on the cool set armors (i.e. Nightingale armor which looks badass) dammit.

The wiki indicates there's actually an unenchanted version of the black Necromancer Robes somewhere. Or if you play the PC version you can just console yourself a set, which shouldn't really be considered a cheat since it's just fashion choice as opposed to gamebreaking

[Kaelik]

Iron daggers are much more convenient for skilling up, fwiw.

Iron Daggers are more efficient until you run out of fucking Iron. What the hell else are you going to do with all the Leather when you get like 12 pelts for every 1 ore.

[Avoraciopoctules]

The wiki indicates there's actually an unenchanted version of the black Necromancer Robes somewhere. Or if you play the PC version you can just console yourself a set, which shouldn't really be considered a cheat since it's just fashion choice as opposed to gamebreaking

There's a bunch. Just fight necromancers at low levels. Or if you just mean black robes with no magic effects, loot everything up to the first town and then check out the half-sunken tower in the river nearby. If you haven't found a "black robes" item by then, there should be something in a chest in the hidden necromancer base.

[OgreBattle]

I loves me some grim, dark gritty fantasy, but the way Skyrim approaches it is "Reality with Down's syndrome". That is, whatever fantasy flair they add to base reality makes it look worse than the real thing.

It is the best looking of the Oblivion games though, so at least they're getting better.

Have there been any good mods that add decent armor and people who don't look like potatos?


This is a question of quality, not taste. It's just sad that there's no western RPGs that look like great Western fantasy art. Skyrim is OK. It's impressive compared to videogames with the same tone that have come before it, it's mediocre when compared to stuff with a similar tone in other media,but it's not great fantasy yet.

[PhoneLobster]

My significant disappointment with Skyrim (except for the skill/attribute/level system reform in Skyrim, I'm prepared to acknowledge that because it was VERY overdue) and the way the franchise has been going downhill in all respects since Morrowind is well known.

So I don't think I need to go into the whole, "Holy crap feature shrinkage, can't fly, can't jump, can't spellcraft, can't etc...".

But I have some additional critiques I think need some highlighting.

1) Who the crap thinks this game "looks better than ever". I'm prepared to say it looks acceptable but it is hardly a graphical feast with it's drab snowy drabness. And one common critique among reviewers even raving fans of the game has generally been that the graphics are somewhat behind the curve for a modern game. If you think the graphics are "mega awesome" you have a problem.

2) Did someone say "most believable cities ever". What the what now? These "cities" have populations that measure in the dozens. It's like that DVD I have with the advertising on the back saying "With literally Dozens of Fans Worldwide!". Dozens is not much. Dozens isn't a damn village. These cities are NOT convincing. In fact they lend a distinctly disappointing unrealistic and socially claustrophobic air to well, everything.

3) Did someone say passable writing and engaging quests because I may be forced to leave that one to a matter of difference of opinion. But I personally felt the writing, characters and major quest lines are among the worst in any Elder Scrolls game to date. Not to mention the insane crappiness of all Guild quests. I want to call out the Companions in particular what a bunch of wankers.

4) Hasn't anyone encountered enemies with the "Disarm" magic attack effect. That's some serious unplayable bull shit right there.

5) A bit more major than most of the other criticisms on this list. Enemies are SO damn uniform, especially in dungeons. I mean Brigands and Barrow Wights, Barrow Wights and Brigands. Yawn.... oh look. A Dryad and some bears for a change, oh no, wait, back to fucking Brigands and barrow wights for the next nine hundred dungeons.

6) And this is the BIG one. I am AMAZED I have seen nobody ever mention this it's like THE elephant in the fan boy room on this game. The Dungeons are all on rails[/i]. Exploration is basically non-existent. While there are twists and turns actual junctions do not exist, if you straightened it out you would have a single long corridor with monsters in, a boss in the second last room and a chest in the last. This is the case for almost every dungeon ever. Very VERY occasionally you may encounter some minor divergence, but it is RARELY ever more than say a SINGLE small secret door closet with some bonus trash in a locked box. Now while one might argue that there is a certain convenience in being utterly unable to get lost due to the predictable zero choice zero exploration nature of these dungeon designs, well, that would make you a console retard dumbing down the game. There is a certain degree of enjoyment to be had to have SOME sort of exploration of dungeons SLIGHTLY more complex than zero forking corridors full of monsters. And that just IS NOT THERE.

I am seriously amazed at this last one. Have NONE of you noticed how stupid these dungeon maps are? How stupid the game designers are assuming their players are with these dungeon maps? No? How many dozen more secret doors leading back to the entrance in the final treasure room just after the fucking barrow wight/brigand boss fight that you were invariably and without option funneled into by a series of always too convenient avalanches blocking "junctions" will you have to complete before you notice the fact this game has you on a set of looping rails every time you step into a dungeon?

[Kaelik]

Oh goody, PL is here to pretend that one person who has in the tutorial area, and is JE, was making statements on behalf of every single person ever.

Bonus points for insulting people for not bringing up an issue he hasn't brought up either. Because that makes sense.

[CapnTthePirateG]

While we're on the topic of shitty quests...

The civil war quests suck. Full stop. I have only played the Legion side of things, but the wiki indicates it's the exact same as the Stormcloak side. That sucks. Then, even after you've won, everyone is still talking about the damn war like it's still raging even though you personally killed the other side's leadership and the enemy is reduced to a few isolated camps that don't do shit. Lastly, even though you're a legate in the Imperial Legion, the Legion troops in towns still refer to you as "citizen." That shit needs to stop.

[PhoneLobster]

Bonus points for insulting people for not bringing up an issue he hasn't brought up either. Because that makes sense.

Er. Why are you going off half cocked at me for pretending what in the who now?

As for me not mentioning it, I mentioning it NOW, what do you think about it? Or is half cocked whining at me for daring to say ANYTHING all you have?

[Kaelik]

Er. Why are you going off half cocked at me for pretending what in the who now?

I don't know what half cocked even means, but I also don't think it means what you think it does. Or you are just being PL, reading six words, and then pretending those six words represent an entire man of straw that you really really hate, for no reason.

What I did do, was point out how silly it was for you to get upset with everyone for believing something because you saw JE in the very first post where he said he was still not finished with the first dungeon, and still had only seen Riverwood, say one thing. Therefore, of course everyone believes it, and you should attack them.

As for me not mentioning it, I mentioning it NOW, what do you think about it? Or is half cocked whining at me for daring to say ANYTHING all you have?

Or alternatively, I'm criticizing you because you decided to whine about how everyone else is an idiot for not bringing up an issue you also didn't bring up for several weeks since you started playing the game.

See, you could absolutely bring up the linearity of the dungeons now if you wanted, but it's fucking retarded for you to bring it up now, and insult everyone else for not having brought it up previously. If I want to criticize RR Martin, I'm not going to imply in the form of a question that no else noticed he takes a long time to write books. I'm especially not going to devote an entire paragraph to repeatedly asking fake questions designed to imply I'm the only one who noticed it.

[Archmage Joda]

While we're on the topic of shitty quests...

The civil war quests suck. Full stop. I have only played the Legion side of things, but the wiki indicates it's the exact same as the Stormcloak side. That sucks. Then, even after you've won, everyone is still talking about the damn war like it's still raging even though you personally killed the other side's leadership and the enemy is reduced to a few isolated camps that don't do shit. Lastly, even though you're a legate in the Imperial Legion, the Legion troops in towns still refer to you as "citizen." That shit needs to stop.

While overall I rather actually like Skyrim, I wholly agree with you on this. Personally, I'm of the opinion (or maybe it's a hope) that whatever expansion(s) they make for skyrim later on actually do something with the civil war questlines, as I too was rather disappointed and found them lacking, and I've done both sides (went through three characters, the third which i settled on ended up being a full on conjurer/illusionist with a minor in archery)

[PhoneLobster]

I don't know what half cocked even means

Clearly. So anyway, what I am getting here is the moment I respond to SOMETHING that SOMEONE has said you will rabidly attack me for no reason and yell at me that everyone agrees with me and I right and should shut up?

Er. What?

OOOOOH wait, you are STILL pulling the "EVERYTHING PL ever says is a strawman even when I think it is right!" thing, good lord, you aren't one of the ones STILL whining about the infamous lost rape thread are you? That was fucking YEARS ago. Yelling strawman at me for just talking to people WAS their thing after all...

Or alternatively, I'm criticizing you because you decided to whine about how everyone else is an idiot for not bringing up an issue you also didn't bring up for several weeks since you started playing the game.

I had bigger issues to discus and people didn't want to hear the others, but really WTF?

How dare I mention things NOW. WTF? You are just attacking me for no reason aren't you? This doesn't even make sense.

"I am amazed no one seems to mention..." that isn't exactly "You are all stupid for not mentioning this!". Perhaps you should you know, learn what a strawman is before accusing me of "Whining", "Attacking", "Everyone", and "insulting everyone for not thinking something".

No really fucking quit it with this moronic "you aren't allowed to talk about this or ANYTHING WAAARRGHGLEEBARGLELRLER". Try actually telling me how do you actually feel about all the dungeons being on rails.

I'm interested. I didn't bring it up in order to dance around yelling "I noticed it and you did not doo daah doo daah, I noticed it and you did not oh deee dooo daaah daaaay!". It is an interesting topic and I would like to know how both rabid Skyrim fans, reasonable Skyrim fans and relatively sane Skyrim critics feel about this particular issue because it SEEMS like a rather major issue in a similar order of OMFG with the feature shrinkage and console limitations.

Inquiring minds who don't yell at me about fictional strawmen made out actual strawmen every time I open my mouth want to know. Starting with my inquiring mind. How the fuck to people feel about the mindless rail shooter dungeons?

If I were presenting these mindless rail shooter dungeons in a table top game SOME gamers would perhaps quite rightly have harsh things to say about how I run my railroad. So yeah? Point raised, can we see any discussion or is it just Kaelik yelling at me because apparently I'm not allowed to say stuff.

[Dean]

Here's an interesting thing. I actually think the dungeons on rails is a positive. Consider to what degree the game is about getting AS MUCH SHIT as your character can carry with their IMPOSSIBLY STRONG ARMS to sell and rinse, repeat. By making the dungeons front to back you simply make it so I don't need to double back to the door I remember on my right 6 rooms back when I finish the boss. I think there should have been some more free-form dungeons just to add spice but all in all I approve of roughly straight dungeons.

[PhoneLobster]

Here's an interesting thing. I actually think the dungeons on rails is a positive.

See now THAT's a more interesting thing.

Now I'm going to agree that to some extent this kind of thing has positives. The game world is big, the dungeons are small elements, a certain degree of predictability and speed when dealing with them is nice.

If we go back to the HUGE and sometimes almost impossible to navigate labyrinths with literally randomly placed objectives from Daggerfall those were just bloody ridiculous crap at least half of the time.

But I think Skyrim has taken it way way too far. The trend towards smaller dungeons and the parrallel trend towards narrower dungeons has been around since Morrowind. It's been in Oblivion, it's been in the Fallout games... and yet the dungeons in those were significantly LESS obviously zero choice railway loops. I might even suggest that as early as Morrowind a few too many dungeons were a bit to small and linear. But it was a pretty near thing and a better shot in the dark than Daggerfall made, and the compromise while far from perfect seemed adequate for many of the following games.

Skyrim has taken this trend too far. It's too blatant, too boring, too predictable.

And worse Skyrim even actively undermines the "dungeons should be a small event on your quest" thing with some of them almost at random taking significantly longer to do the full loop or having oddly ludicrous bosses after armies of even weaker than normal mooks and so on. And those aren't even important dungeons it just seems to be almost randomly the case that SOME dungeons are on a longer or more boggy railway loop than others for no good reason. They don't in any way HELP with the whole "its a boring rail loop" thing but they DO undermine what advantages in predictability and convenience that the boring rail loop provides. And that is a really bad situation.

[Blicero]

1) Who the crap thinks this game "looks better than ever". I'm prepared to say it looks acceptable but it is hardly a graphical feast with it's drab snowy drabness. And one common critique among reviewers even raving fans of the game has generally been that the graphics are somewhat behind the curve for a modern game. If you think the graphics are "mega awesome" you have a problem.

The game doesn't look great, but it looks a lot better than Oblivion does. There isn't nearly as much bloom, and charactermodels just look awkward instead of bloated and terrifying. From a distance, most errything looks pretty, but up close textures tend toward shite.

That being said, I dig the overall æsthetic. Morrowind's appearance was much more unique, compelling, and engaging, but Skyrim's is still fairly appealing. And if you don't think the vistas the game provides aren't pretty, you're lying. Bethesda has done a fairly decent job of giving each capital its own look, and I think it's paid off. (Although the big cities should have more diverse names. Having cities called Whiterun, Winterhold, and Windhold is honestly obnox.)

2) Did someone say "most believable cities ever". What the what now? These "cities" have populations that measure in the dozens. It's like that DVD I have with the advertising on the back saying "With literally Dozens of Fans Worldwide!". Dozens is not much. Dozens isn't a damn village. These cities are NOT convincing. In fact they lend a distinctly disappointing unrealistic and socially claustrophobic air to well, everything.

Dude, this was also a problem in Morrowind, Oblivion, New Vegas, Shadows of Amn, Torment, Fallout 2, and basically every game ever, especially openworld ones. The biggest mainstream games have seriously like 15 square miles of area. That's not a lot. You either have the choice to thoroughly cover a small area of a region on a realistic scale, or smallscale everything. The former could be interesting, but the latter provides a much more epicfeeling experience. While the fact that there are like 20 people in an average city can be disconcerting in abstract, in practice the only time I've ever really noticed it is in places like Windhelm, where 1 of those 20 people is secretly a murderer.

3) Did someone say passable writing and engaging quests because I may be forced to leave that one to a matter of difference of opinion. But I personally felt the writing, characters and major quest lines are among the worst in any Elder Scrolls game to date. Not to mention the insane crappiness of all Guild quests. I want to call out the Companions in particular what a bunch of wankers.

I've found the questlines to be, at best, short and sweet (Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild), and, at worst, short and tedious (Wizard College). But I've enjoyed many, if not most, of the miscellaneous quests. There's a decent bit of variety in them. And I enjoy simply wandering around moreso than I have in previous ES games, although I don't know exactly why this is the case.

5) A bit more major than most of the other criticisms on this list. Enemies are SO damn uniform, especially in dungeons. I mean Brigands and Barrow Wights, Barrow Wights and Brigands. Yawn.... oh look. A Dryad and some bears for a change, oh no, wait, back to fucking Brigands and barrow wights for the next nine hundred dungeons.

I agree. Enemies are crying out for a bit more variety. Since Daedra have basically been excluded from the game, Bethesda really should have gotten some more variety. The undead could have easily been diversified.

6) And this is the BIG one. I am AMAZED I have seen nobody ever mention this it's like THE elephant in the fan boy room on this game. The Dungeons are all on rails[/i]. Exploration is basically non-existent. While there are twists and turns actual junctions do not exist, if you straightened it out you would have a single long corridor with monsters in, a boss in the second last room and a chest in the last. This is the case for almost every dungeon ever. Very VERY occasionally you may encounter some minor divergence, but it is RARELY ever more than say a SINGLE small secret door closet with some bonus trash in a locked box. Now while one might argue that there is a certain convenience in being utterly unable to get lost due to the predictable zero choice zero exploration nature of these dungeon designs, well, that would make you a console retard dumbing down the game. There is a certain degree of enjoyment to be had to have SOME sort of exploration of dungeons SLIGHTLY more complex than zero forking corridors full of monsters. And that just IS NOT THERE.

I am seriously amazed at this last one. Have NONE of you noticed how stupid these dungeon maps are? How stupid the game designers are assuming their players are with these dungeon maps? No? How many dozen more secret doors leading back to the entrance in the final treasure room just after the fucking barrow wight/brigand boss fight that you were invariably and without option funneled into by a series of always too convenient avalanches blocking "junctions" will you have to complete before you notice the fact this game has you on a set of looping rails
every time you step into a dungeon?

I honestly don't have a huge problem with this. There's enough exploration in the overworld, especially with mountains and such, that I don't mind dungeoncrawls that are short and sweet. I wouldn't have minded levels that were at least on the scale of a Morrowind stronghold or 6th House base, though.

[Murtak]

Here's an interesting thing. I actually think the dungeons on rails is a positive.

See now THAT's a more interesting thing.

Now I'm going to agree that to some extent this kind of thing has positives. The game world is big, the dungeons are small elements, a certain degree of predictability and speed when dealing with them is nice.

If we go back to the HUGE and sometimes almost impossible to navigate labyrinths with literally randomly placed objectives from Daggerfall those were just bloody ridiculous crap at least half of the time.

But I think Skyrim has taken it way way too far.

I agree. I am fine with some dungeons being loops. Hell, make half of them loops for all I care. But there really needs to be some dungeons that are decidely nonlinear, and there really are not many of those at all.

[Zinegata]

I'm actually fine with largely linear dungeons. When you have so many of them, you need to make each one less of a chore to clear.

[Kaelik]

Clearly. So anyway, what I am getting here is the moment I respond to SOMETHING that SOMEONE has said you will rabidly attack me for no reason and yell at me that everyone agrees with me and I right and should shut up?

So the strawman one. Okay. Let me explain this in really simple words.

I did not rapidly attack you, therefore all your whining about half cocked X is wrong, because you are living in an alternate universe in which you think I am rapidly attacking you.

you aren't one of the ones STILL whining about the infamous lost rape thread are you? That was fucking YEARS ago.

Hey PL, remember that time years ago when we disagreed. And then you accused me of being pro rape because anyone who disagrees with you about anything now must be one of those people who was pro rape in that one thread? And then remember how every single person including the other people who also disagreed with me, including Crissa who hates me pointed out how retarded you were being for deciding that I must have been pro rape in the mystic pro rape thread from that past, because goddam it, I disagreed with you about something in the present.

And remember how no one had any clue what pro rape thread you were talking about, and fbmf asked you specifically what thread this was, and then it turned out you couldn't find the thread at all, or describe it in any terms more specifically than "There was a thread, and people that I hated were pro rape in the thread." and then we all just decided that this was a subject you should drop, and never bring up again, because the only people you were really sure had been in that thread are people who don't post on this forum anymore?

The lesson to be learned from this is not to bring up the rape thread that may or may not exist that only you have ever seen.

The other lesson you could learn but definitely won't is that you apparently have no ability to differentiate between people who disagree with you about anything, and therefore immediately in your head assume that anyone who disagrees with you about anything right now must be the author of every thing you've ever disagreed with.

How dare I mention things NOW. WTF? You are just attacking me for no reason aren't you? This doesn't even make sense.

Please learn to read PL. I did not say how dare you mention it now. That is your problem. You read something that did not say how dare you mention this now, and then decided I must have meant how dare you mention this now, and then started criticizing me for the thing I did not say, but you just assumed I must have meant. That is the actual fucking perfect example of a Strawman.

Do you know what I actually said? Clearly not. What I actually said was, "Hey PL, stop accusing us of not noticing something just because we didn't bring it up." You'll notice that has fuck all nothing to do with what you mention now.

Well, you've proven you won't notice that. But other people will.

No really fucking quit it with this moronic "you aren't allowed to talk about this or ANYTHING WAAARRGHGLEEBARGLELRLER".

Or alternatively, I will continue to not say that you aren't allowed to talk about this or anything, because that's not what I said. And you can continue to talk about this or anything, and I won't even bother with it as long as you also manage to not confuse what one person said with what other people said, and also don't get upset with people for not bringing up a specific issue, and impute inability to notice it on those who choose not to bring it up.

[Doom]

I'm actually fine with largely linear dungeons. When you have so many of them, you need to make each one less of a chore to clear.

Actually, there are some dwemer ruins that aren't linear, and are freakin' HUGE.

That said, I find the "dungeon built by committee" thing that describes most dungeons to be pretty tiresome. Every time I see a locked door, I go "oh look, a dead end"--every locked door is a dead end, because the committee obviously felt that it was unsafe to assume that players would be able to pick locks (incidentally, is there anyone out there who has an I-can't-do-this hard time with lockpicking? Even 'expert' doesn't seem to be much of an issue for me, and I doubt I'm particularly gifted at it).

Similarly, every dungeon, even the Dungeon of Rats and Bears, has an unlocked chest at the end, because obviously the committee felt that a dungeon without a chance at some uber loot might not be fun. Unlocked, of course, due to the first committee rule.

And finally, every dungeon past a certain length (2 rooms) has a 'shortcut' exit route, because the committee felt that players wouldn't have fun retracing their steps through the longer dungeons.

While none of these things are bad ideas per se, knowing that all dungeons/caves/tunnel complexes are built with the same unbreakable rules takes some of the fun of 'exploration' out for me.

The tyranny of fun, I guess.

[Swordslinger]

I didn't mind the secret escape route at the end of each dungeon, I guess it would have been easier if they just allowed you to fast travel out of cleared dungeons, but whatever.

The linearity isn't a huge deal for me. While I would like to see more passageways, I don't want them getting too complicated. Daggerfall was an awful game for the reason that they made every dungeon labyrinthine as hell. That sucked. I'd rather have the Skyrim extreme than the Daggerfall extreme.

[Josh_Kablack]

Dozens isn't a damn village.

It totally can be