A replacement for power attack/expertise/dodge/itineratives

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:04 am

I see power attack and expertise as abilities that aim to create more options for warriors who otherwise just go "I hit the guy". The Tome fixes it by making them not require a feat to unlock.

My goal is to replicate the same idea (meaningful choices in combat for warriors) but in a more elegant manner.

my criticism of current system:
still feels a bit too stiff and based around doing addition/subtraction (I personally don't find that very interesting but I figure it works for others, but hey this is my thread anyways)

my solution: As a swift action (or a free action usable in the same manner and restrictions as a swift action) you can add d6+ to your Attack roll, damage roll, or as an immediate action to your AC/Fort/Ref/Will.

If you want a highly accurate strike, use that +d6 to attack
If you want Power Attack, use that +d6 to damage
If you want to avoid your opponent's blow, +d6 to your AC

because it's restricted the way a Swift action is (or it IS a swift action, haven't decided yet) if you used it on a dodge against your foe you don't have it available for your counter attack.

And in place of getting itinerative attacks, you get another 1d6 to spend in this manner (split as you like). A level 7 fighter can thus land swift +2d6 strikes, deliver a powerful +2d6 blow, or parry masterfully with +2d6 AC, or a strong +1d6 attack to a +1d6 damaging blow.

Yeah, it's more dice rolling but its tied to an existing die. Your attack roll is now d20+xD6, your damage roll is now [weapon damage]+xD6

A static number could easily suffice, say +2.

I've only thought about the IDEA though. I like the Idea. How it interacts with existing mechanics is outside my full scope of understanding.

But do you think the idea is good? A limited resource to enhance a warrior's actions.
*It's pretty similar to what Monks already do, but instead of a Monk Exclusive, it's a Warrior Staple.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:09 am

No this is not a good idea. At early levels it utterly rapes the RNG, +1d6 attack is better than any other option, and at later levels it becomes insultingly hurtful. Power Attack is how fighters do damage, and +4d6 damage on your single, lone attack at 16th level is just making it so that fighters can't have nice things.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:51 am

Hicks wrote:No this is not a good idea.

Mechanically it's not, I figured.

But the overall IDEA, if it had sound mechanics would it be interesting?

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:47 am

It would require a complete system rewrite and you would need to tailor the mechanic for the system. As it stands, Tome Power Attack and Expertise work wonderfully as a patch to 3.X because they provide mathematically sound results instead if random over/underwhelming bonuses.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:31 pm

So the random element is unwieldly, static numbers that match the balance of the level would be better

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:38 pm

scaling from 1d4 to perhaps 1d6/level on attacks would be all right. But that's an awful lot of scaling.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:13 pm

Power attack is a hack that is needed in 3e because the numbers don't work otherwise. If you mess with the hack because you don't like the 'flavor' or think that the math is too hard, without understanding why it exists in the first place, you'll break the game. Then you'll have to add another complicated hack to bring things back in line.

In 3e, fighters should just come with a power attack slide rule that the player can adjust based on quantities like AC and HP as they become known. When you don't bother trying to intuit power attack amounts or puzzle out what would be optimal with incomplete information, it's actually really straightforward and mechanistic.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:54 pm

"more elegant manner." =/= more complicated.

The whole of:

Power Attack: Reduce To-Hit by a maximum of BaB; gain +2 damage per +1 traded away. This may be applied to any attack, even attacks of opportunity.

Expertise: Reduce To-Hit by a maximum of BaB; gain +1 AC per +1 traded away. This bonus and penalty lasts until the beginning of your next round from the first attack that used Expertise. This may only be applied during non attacks of opportunity.

is.... pretty elegant to begin with. Numbers just slide-rule back and forth in a round. With most characters doing something like this:

-Attack 1: Power-Attack for BaB-tAC
-Attack 2 to X-1: Repeat 1
-Attack X: Expertise for full BaB

Where tAC is based on target AC; X = last attack.

RobG · Post by **RobG** » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:07 am

Sorry to necro but I think this is a great idea that just needs implementation.

a) The d6 can be rolled on a save but you lose the option on your next turn

b) The damage option scales at the rate of the monks unarmed damage

c) It doesnt replace iteratives and requires no action

There. Wasnt that hard. Now you can decide what to concentrate on and make better every round without mucking with feats. My complements to OgreBattle on a damn good idea.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:39 pm

No, still wrong, and you're only making the game more complicated, without adding anything good.

The truly ideal solution is as follows

Monsters Don't get Constitution Modifiers

"What the stars?! This troll took five strikes to drop! It normally should take three!"

One of the growing problems in D&D is that, much like the video games it has spawned, it has grown to produce..... bloat. Specifically in damage soaking pools in creatures and characters.

Having seen this in Evocation magic being worse tasting than dung, when compared to the insanity that is Colour Spray or Magic Jar. Likewise, any character who relies on the ability "hit it with a humanoid body, and a melee weapon" is often not enough to be viable, past... level 3.

From 2e to 3e the common troll gained about +60% more hit points; turning from a 30-hp mini-tank to a 50-pt monster. Since the normal things that a PC has to deal damage with did not increase by 60%; long swords still deal 1d8 damage and a greatsword went from a d12 to 2d6.

The result of this bloating HP, and static damage dealing abilities is that fighters seem to "not get nice things".

Really, an easy way to fix 3e monsters is like so

"For DM's notice: The monster you are currently using, has 1/2 of it's listed hit points. Player Characters don't start off with 2d8 longswords or 4d6 greatswords. Likewise, a troll should not have 50 hp, when it used to have only 30 or so."

Suddenly, most of the "balance" issues; the real balance issues; between PCs and Mobiles is greatly eased. Wizards that rely on SoDs, and shapeshifting druids suddenly don't seem so overpowered when they can't kill more enemies per round than most of their allies.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:15 am

2e Fighter, 7th level: +12*2 for 1d12+10 (28 vs troll), 52 hp, AC 18.
2e Troll, +7*3 for d4+4/d4+4/d8+4 (11 vs Ftr), 33 hp (delayed regen 3), AC 16.

3e Fighter, 6th level: +13/+8 for 2d6+9+1d6 (26 vs troll), 55 hp, AC 18.
3e Troll, +9/+9/+4 for d6+6/d6+6/d6+3 and rend (17 vs Ftr), 63 hp (regen 5), AC 18.

2nd edition Fighters do a bit more damage on average while taking much less. Even if the troll drops back to 33 hp, it's still much harder for the 3e Fighter to beat them. Of course, 2nd edition Fighters can chop up the monsters something wicked.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:40 pm

RobG wrote:Sorry to necro but I think this is a great idea that just needs implementation.

a) The d6 can be rolled on a save but you lose the option on your next turn

b) The damage option scales at the rate of the monks unarmed damage

c) It doesnt replace iteratives and requires no action

My complements to OgreBattle on a damn good idea.

hahah, thanks. I haven't been on the Den in a while so missed this.

It'd probably be easier to just create something from whole cloth than cram it into the maw of 3.X though. If I expand on that I'll be sure to post on the Den for stress testing.

RobG · Post by **RobG** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:04 am

Yeah, I agree. It mucks up the balance a bit too much to just cram into 3e and it doesnt really work as a feat or class feature either.

Still a good idea in there though. Good luck with it.

RobG · Post by **RobG** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:17 am

Got it...

Feat- Ogre's Battlesong (Bardic Music)
Prereq: 5 ranks Perform (Any)
Gives Morale bonuses, doesn't stack with Isp courage, etc..

Your standard Bard 3rd level feat.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:07 am

Now once upon a time
An old man told me a fable
When the piper is gone
And the soup is cold on your table
And if the black crow flies
To find a new destination
That is the sign

Come tonight
Come to the ogre site
Come to the ogre battle fight

...

I'm refining this idea to present in a way that answers D&DN's "complexity dial" query.
It's not about making trade-off options, it's more like sticking 'simple' as the default gear within 'choice'.