MGuy wrote:Phone: Are you seriously wanting a Diplomacy where you don't have to, at the very least, point out what your character is 'trying' to say?
Pointing out what you are trying to
say is highly questionable, do perhaps, say, pretty much pure fluff that should not be incorporated into the roll. No more than an extended discussion on footing and grip and non-mechanical stylistic swordsmanship is relegated to post roll fluff fill ins.
It seems pretty reasonable to at least require the player to tell me what his character is "trying" to convince a given NPC to do.
The problem is the people having this discussion are NOT being reasonable.
Having an objective and a modifier for that objective in an action is an acceptable mechanic. We do that all the time. Having several options such as variable special attacks with variable special objectives and relevant modifiers is fine.
But those are
small and finite lists of
predictable well defined and finite sized modifiers.
The IDIOTS on this thread are pointing at things like the finite, predictable and small sized effect of selecting a weapon from a small finite list of weapons and using it to draw TWO insane conclusions with NO CONNECTING ARGUMENT.
1) If small finite modifiers and optional goals exist you CAN and MUST therefore have utterly infinite sized lists of modifiers of potentially infinite size and with infinite variable goals. And as an aside every scenario will always be an overly elaborate one that favors whatever argument I am making this week and all the other infinite scenarios that don't
never ever occur just because I say so.
2) If you can use a sword... Charm Person and Diplomacy as written cannot exist and if it did that would be the same as rolling a single abstract roll to defeat a dungeon.
These are fundamentally insane positions. There are no lines connecting the dots. The fact is that abstraction to explain
how someone achieves something is STILL built into "I convince the king to give me a sandwich and try to do so with a grand story about dragons" pretty much JUST as much as "I convince the king to give me a sandwich".
Indeed "I declare I am convincing the king to give me a sandwich with a story about dragons then roll high and succeed... somehow..." and "I declare I convince the king to give me a sandwich ... somehow... and I roll high and declare I did it with a story about dragons" are barely different on any sort of level that matters.
But we are having people on this thread flat out declaring that if the dragon story fluff is generated from the roll and not the other way around they are going to explode and rant for pages of thread about it. Admittedly they are STUPID people who say STUPID things about how the sandwich story is so terrible it is the equivalent of "Clear entire dungeon checks".
Even though arguable the story selection on roll result is basically a PROVEN POSSIBLE AND SUCCESSFUL MECHANIC thanks to ANY number of examples including the inclusion of fluff on sword attacks after the roll, the existence of success/failure on rolls, critical hit mechanics, degree of success mechanics, variable damage on hit, and the actual diplomacy and charm person mechanics from the actual RPG system half this thread spent time discussing.
The morons who have been following me around arguing against not just my own but ANY form of actual social mechanic have come into this thread and basically spent their time telling us that EXISTING social mechanics CANNOT HAPPEN. And that if they did it would be as game destroying as just turning entire dungeons into one abstracted roll with no fluff. And that all this is supposedly the case because you might have to
pick a target and
might use a sword.
It is pure fucking insanity and these people need to
get a fucking grip.
Because you know what. You wanna tell me you hate charm person, or you want to have infinite sized modifier lists in your diplomacy "mechanic" fine, you are stupid for wanting that and we can have an argument about THAT, again, but if you tell me those things "... because Swords and Targets! And the universe will explode in Clear Dungeon Checks!" then fuck you you are fucking insane.
