Rant about ToB maneuvers in 3.x

HalcyonUmbra · Post by **HalcyonUmbra** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:15 pm

sigma999 wrote:I design with classless in mind, then when reminding myself that 99% of D&D players prefer classes, hone it down into stupid little class restrictions.
But really, I didn't split up maneuvers into schools because noncasters have a hard enough time as it is. The character in itself is already limited in the number of maneuver slots; why tell a player no to what they want to use further than that?

Otherwise yes, replace Fighter with Warblade. Fuck Fighter. Fuck it hard.

So then does a Wizard have access to maneuvers (regardless of how effective he'd be with them)? And conversely, does a Warblade have access to spells? My current impression is that everyone just has generic "slots" and you can fill them with spells or maneuvers as you see fit.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:49 am

ModelCitizen wrote: Personally the only thing I care about item slots doing is preventing you from putting two items into the same physical space on your body.

But that's the part that is completely meaningless from a game balance perspective and totally arguable from a flavor perspective. In short, that's the part about magic item slots that doesn't need to be done at all. Why can't people wear gauntlets over gloves? There's no mechanical benefit in preventing people from doing so. While stacking hats on top of each other is funny, it's not something people don't do.

All we actually want or need is an absolute cap of how many total magic items are used. If someone wants to wear a whole bunch of belts, that is their choice. Having someone have more or less active magic items is a game balance concern, having someone decide for whatever reason that they need to wear a cloak over another cloak is not.

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:34 am

what is that stack of belts from. Was that a fashion at a certain time and place?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:36 am

OgreBattle wrote:what is that stack of belts from. Was that a fashion at a certain time and place?

It's called "multistrapping". The original concept is that by putting on a series of belts that you can achieve a corset-effect. That by tightening each belt to a different degree you can appear to be thinner or more shapely. But some people just like having buckles and leather straps all over their bodies. Like the aesthetic in Girl Genius.

But from the standpoint of a game, I shouldn't have to have an argument about whether multistapped styles are cool or not in order to get mechanical benefit from my equipment. And even more so, I should not be objectively punished for deciding that I personally don't like multistrapped styles.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:21 am

Don't quote me on this, but I think its recent popularity is a revival of Punk (where leather in general seems pretty popular, but BELT AND ZIPPER especially so, because "we like leather" could apply to falconers, bikers and dominatrices too).

That or possibly Final Fantasy/edgy-emo J-Pop (is there a difference other than the amount of buttons you press? I mean fuck, Dirge of Cerberus had fuckling Gackt in it AS A REAL FUCKING CHARACTER) which is utterly mad for BELTANDZIPPERBELTANDZIPPER. (I'm not only talking about Lulu either, with her dress made entirely of belts so that you get glimpses of her pants).

Then again, I think the Epic book had some hilarious multistrapping going on.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:20 pm

The icnoic 3E sorcerer was all about buckles.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:37 pm

HalcyonUmbra wrote: So then does a Wizard have access to maneuvers (regardless of how effective he'd be with them)? And conversely, does a Warblade have access to spells? My current impression is that everyone just has generic "slots" and you can fill them with spells or maneuvers as you see fit.

That's how I designed the "universal class". 3 + level number of feats, and a same number of power slots.
Any class disparity comes entirely from feat and power selection (and I am working on templates to guide players into certain class roles if they so wish) but also how a player uses their selection to best advantage.

I realize some spells outright blow the competition away, such as Color Spray at L1, but that's not my problem. If a DM and group finds some power too good they can ban it, as the usual D&D assumption goes. Whatever.

One more, pure DBZ.

TELEPORT STRIKE
Maneuver Slot 5
Melee Strike
You teleport up to Medium distance before attacking as part of one of your melee attacks for the round.
You must either see the location or know of its existence.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:39 pm

Teleportation battle
Manoeuver slot always your highest
You and an adjacent enemy teleport 10 ft in a random direction and gain an attack against each other. Repeat this till anyone gets bored.

ModelCitizen · Post by **ModelCitizen** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:38 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: But from the standpoint of a game, I shouldn't have to have an argument about whether multistapped styles are cool or not in order to get mechanical benefit from my equipment. And even more so, I should not be objectively punished for deciding that I personally don't like multistrapped styles.

-Username17

But if you decide you don't like the aesthetic of wearing five belts, and the rules allow you to do that, then you are objectively punished for wearing lower priority items instead of a second, third, fourth, or fifth belt.

I don't think that's a problem for belts, because it's easy to describe wearing five belts in a way that doesn't strain WSoD or look stupid. What I don't want is for your optimal choice is to be to wear a hat on top of a greathelm (which looks silly) or to wear two greathelms (which is physically impossible unless you are an ettin).

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:09 pm

ModelCitizen wrote:But if you decide you don't like the aesthetic of wearing five belts, and the rules allow you to do that, then you are objectively punished for wearing lower priority items instead of a second, third, fourth, or fifth belt.

I don't think that's a problem for belts, because it's easy to describe wearing five belts in a way that doesn't strain WSoD or look stupid. What I don't want is for your optimal choice is to be to wear a hat on top of a greathelm (which looks silly) or to wear two greathelms (which is physically impossible unless you are an ettin).

Well then it's a good thing that this isn't an MMO where all the items have to be named and follow the same pattern. Seriously, have you looked at the book of Gears? Nothing forces you to wear two belts, you can just wear a belt, and then also wear an amulet, because you can have an Amulet add to Str as easily as a belt.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:48 am

Okay, the turn went through successfully. No problems there.

Pythia, Abysia: my scouts have begun to report a war in the north. Based on this turn of events, I regret to inform you that I must indeed declare war. Look forward to a visit from your friendly neighborhood jaguars in 3 turns time.

Pangaea: I am sending you 12 nature gems in the turn file I just submitted. Can you craft the amulet this turn and send it along the next?

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:53 am

I think someone made a mistake.

ModelCitizen · Post by **ModelCitizen** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:02 am

Kaelik wrote: Well then it's a good thing that this isn't an MMO where all the items have to be named and follow the same pattern. Seriously, have you looked at the book of Gears? Nothing forces you to wear two belts, you can just wear a belt, and then also wear an amulet, because you can have an Amulet add to Str as easily as a belt.

Kaelik everything you have posted in the last two weeks has been bitchy passive aggressive threadshitting over goddamn nothing. I don't know what's wrong with you but I don't care. Get over it and shut the fuck up.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:46 am

ModelCitizen wrote:
Kaelik wrote: Well then it's a good thing that this isn't an MMO where all the items have to be named and follow the same pattern. Seriously, have you looked at the book of Gears? Nothing forces you to wear two belts, you can just wear a belt, and then also wear an amulet, because you can have an Amulet add to Str as easily as a belt.
Kaelik everything you have posted in the last two weeks has been bitchy passive aggressive threadshitting over goddamn nothing. I don't know what's wrong with you but I don't care. Get over it and shut the fuck up.

I don't keep track of individual posters that well, but what you posted right before this in this thread was fucking retarded.

It's not bitchy or passive aggressive to point out that you made a stupid post of stupid, and why it's stupid.

You are complaining that because it's going to be mechanically better for your character to wear 5 belts.

Solution: Don't design the mechanic so that it's mechanically beneficial to wear five belts. And since we already have an example system that meets this criteria, it's not a even hard to implement.

If you want to whine about how something doesn't work, come up with a good reason first.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:21 am

Added more non-strike maneuvers. It's all edited into the first post for ease of finding. More to come later.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:46 pm

Added three slot level 6 maneuvers to imitate Exalted defenses for Level 11+ characters.
Added nonlethal damage clause to represent some kind of resource to expend, although a mana system would better imitate the "essence pool" of Exalted and what happens when it runs out.

Maybe I could make it per hour instead, or per minute. It would be enough time to counter a Save or Die, close in, and make the kill.

EDIT: OK I changed it to a minute long recharge after successfully working rather than HP cost.