Making a Tome game and...

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:31 am

Prak: in some cases you can make it kind of work just by doing the "extra HD" thing. Because the minimum is 2 HD per CR increase (not including +1 for a Size Increase and so on), with some getting 4 per. This leads to:
[*]More Feats to play with, to do surprising things (especially with unfair BAB that lets their Tome Feat +16 BAB abilities kick in at level 8 or whatever)
[*]More Hit Points and better Saves, so they last longer
[*]Potentially more Natty Armour or whatever - it isn't built in, but a lot should reasonably have +1 NA per X hit dice (indeed for most Outsiders and Dragons it looks like it's unofficially built in)
[*]Unfair Save DCs. So a max-HD Corrolax is a turkey-sized parrot with significant HP and a very good DC for its Stun.

angelfromanotherpin wrote:lose their cool

I see what you did there.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:40 am

Josh's theory, that all people are idiots, it probably the best theory that could exist, but even that fails because Storm Lord

Well, anyone at all saying that a class which has an at-will ability to deal knockback as an immediate action is good evidence in support of universal idiocy.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:41 am

One thing I've noticed is that using the Edge rules makes some monsters a lot more powerful due to their insane BaB scores. Effectively giving all giants Improved Grab, Improved Trip and Improved Disarm makes them pretty scary at the levels where you first meet them.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:07 am

I'm actually not using Scaling feats because half the people i had playing when I started running are against them (of course the group also think that Knight and Warmage are ridiculously overpowered). I made the bonus skill feats on the revised Thief Acrobat "stunts."

But, yeah, I may do that, need to pay more attention to Edge, as well.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:59 am

How is Fighter the most overpowered? Is it at a certain level he becomes too good?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:25 am

It's all of the Combat Feats and the things they grant, including the ability to just go "Oh, I have this feat at the moment" on top of that.

As for Warmage, I need to go over it again and remove some of the class features - or tone others down. But just the spells and their scaling should certainly not be a problem. He gets the "I blow you up" spells, and logistic spells.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:47 am

Combat sense is golden, a reroll on anything you need means you can almost rule out those "miss on a 1" situations. Both our Samurai and Barbarian went for a 1-level Fighter dip just to get it. Foil action is also a biggie, potentially closing down enemies without any save on their part and only a touch attack required by a full BaB character.

Other than that, Tome feats as class features are the gift that keeps on giving. The Combat feat you pick up at level 1 will still be level appropriate at level 16, which is something very few other class features do. Seriously, look at what other classes get. A Wizard gets spells every level, but the spells they get at level 2 don't advance as they go up levels IN ADDITION to gaining other level appropriate spells. A Tome Fighter gets a Combat feat every other level and they keep providing more and better abilities as you go up levels. By level 16 a Tome Fighter has 8 feats as class features and 6 from levelling, each providing 5 always on abilities. That's 70 always on abilities and bonuses without even looking at other class features and magic items.

So basically, Tome feats should be awarded very sparingly as class features. 1 or 2 in the first 10 levels is more than enough.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:52 am

Rob wrote:A Wizard gets spells every level, but the spells they get at level 2 don't advance as they go up levels IN ADDITION to gaining other level appropriate spells.

They actually do. You know, Caster Level and all that. The Mage Armor that you learn at level 2 uses up one of your top level slots and lasts for a raid, but at level 16 it uses up a minor utility slot and lasts until bed time.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:57 pm

Koumei wrote:It's all of the Combat Feats and the things they grant, including the ability to just go "Oh, I have this feat at the moment" on top of that.

As for Warmage, I need to go over it again and remove some of the class features - or tone others down. But just the spells and their scaling should certainly not be a problem. He gets the "I blow you up" spells, and logistic spells.

I also just gave him Phantom Steed, basically just a step up from Mount, I figure if some has one, they should have the other.

Sajber · Post by **Sajber** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:58 pm

Ok, having gone through that awesome list of classes (thanks a bunch, Kaelik!) I think I've come to a mix I like. I wanted to sort them according to "difficulty" or rules knowledge dependance, as I have a few players that aren't really into min-maxing, while some love it. I'd love it if you guys could give me some feedback on the list, both in terms of class mix, balance/power issues between classes (if there are any) or the "difficulty" level I've put them in.

"Easy": Barbarian (Frank), Defender, Fire Mage, Favoured of Pelor, Marshall, Ranger (ZER0), Snowscaper, Thief Acrobat

"Medium": Assassin, Fighter (Frank), Monk (Frank), Rogue (PHB), Soldier, Storm Lord

"Hard": Bard (Frank), Cleric (PHB), Druid (PHB), Kantian Paladin, Sorceror (PHB), Wizard (PHB)

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:24 pm

Why is Thief Acrobat Easy and Rogue is Medium? They both seem to involve similar game knowledge and rely on UMD shenanigans at higher levels.

Why is the Assassin Medium? All other prepared spellcasters you have listed as Hard.

Have you taken into account that the Tome Fighter can grab any Feat at any time from level 3, and therefore has to know what every feat does at all times?

Sajber · Post by **Sajber** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:23 pm

Ok, so I should change Thief Acrobat to Medium, Assassin and Fighter to Hard? Do the others seem ok?

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:38 pm

I'd probably also put the Assassin and maybe the Fighter in the Hard category. Assassins tend to completely blow unless you're good at D&D, and the Fighter floating feat (among other things) can be really quite complex.

Sajber · Post by **Sajber** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:13 pm

Ok, thanks! Another question has arised: how do you do Metamagic feats? Do you keep the ones in the PHB, have just the various Tome versions found on this forum or combine both versions? Are they comparable in strength? The Tome versions seem a bit stronger to me, although more narrow in scope...

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:21 pm

Sajber wrote:Ok, thanks! Another question has arised: how do you do Metamagic feats? Do you keep the ones in the PHB, have just the various Tome versions found on this forum or combine both versions? Are they comparable in strength? The Tome versions seem a bit stronger to me, although more narrow in scope...

A lot of people like this: http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Balanced_Metam ... iant_Rule)

Add on the Tome [Metamagic] or [Spellcasting] feats and you're good. They are generally stronger, but you don't have abusive bullshit like Divine Metamagic and Incantatrix so it still comes out okay.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:47 pm

Possibly the same thing Surgo was linking to, possibly not, but if you look in the thread "Comprehensive Tome Errata" it contains metamagic feats I stole from AlphaNerd that I think are pretty much the best system that has so far existed.

Sajber · Post by **Sajber** » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:56 pm

Ok, now we're actually getting quite close to playing, so thanks for all the help! Just wondering, what Character Sheet do you guys usually use when playing Tome games? It seems that it requires some more space for Feats, which I can't really see in the default sheets. Do you make your own sheets, or is there a Tome-friendly sheet somewhere out there?

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:09 pm

I used a WoTC character sheet for my first character ever, then shifted to an online chargen, then shifted to just making up my own in word or notepad or whatever and I've never looked back.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:53 am

I almost exclusively write sheets on graph paper. If you really need a guide, use the 3.5 character sheets and mod as appropriate.

Archmage · Post by **Archmage** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:20 am

Notepad. Seriously.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:19 pm

...You Lost Me, if I may ask, why Graph Paper, could you show us an example of its use?

I've been wondering this question for awhile as well now, and surprising to know that nobody has really made a custom one for Tome Characters. Though I guess since a Tome game is going to be full of house rules, including likely several skill changes, even with Pathfinder's or the Tome of Prowess.

I appreciate the listing of classes by how truly complex they are to play, I think I could appreciate such a guide (including tips on how to play the more advanced classes well, like Kantian Paladin).

I'm also curious how one runs a Tome Game?, especially with more Wizard classes like Soulborn, Fighter, Soldier, and so on. Since most DM's likely aren't going to have system mastery of the game, optimization or otherwise, but still want to challenge players. Without having such the hefty requirement of knowing all of the games abuses and so forth. I know myself, seem bit put off trying to run 3rd edition again, based on its such messy high level design, and the seemingly steep knowledge for optimization required to properly DM a Tome Game. I also wonder if the game works well enough using Wealth By Level, even if you give the +1/3 enhancement bonus or some such other needed bonuses?

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:51 pm

Aryxbez wrote:I'm also curious how one runs a Tome Game?, especially with more Wizard classes like Soulborn, Fighter, Soldier, and so on. Since most DM's likely aren't going to have system mastery of the game, optimization or otherwise, but still want to challenge players. Without having such the hefty requirement of knowing all of the games abuses and so forth. I know myself, seem bit put off trying to run 3rd edition again, based on its such messy high level design, and the seemingly steep knowledge for optimization required to properly DM a Tome Game. I also wonder if the game works well enough using Wealth By Level, even if you give the +1/3 enhancement bonus or some such other needed bonuses?

Running a Tome game is just like running any other game of D&D. You just look at the characters and what they are capable of and throw together some challenges based on that. You don't need to be a master of optimization unless your players are, just like regular D&D.

I'm running Rise of the Runelords for a Tome group, and all I did was slow down their advancement so they are 1-2 levels behind what they should be. Just think of it like running for a group composed entirely of Wizards, Clerics and Druids. Just up the CR's by a few points and go.

The good thing about running a Tome game is that all the players feel awesome at what they do, not just the casters. When a Samurai does a Whirlwind attack through a group of three Giants and uses all his Kai strikes to drop them all in a single round, he really feels like a badass.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:14 am

Aryxbez wrote:...You Lost Me, if I may ask, why Graph Paper, could you show us an example of its use?

It's basically the same price as lined paper (cheap), the lines are smaller than a lot of lined paper journals (the cheapest ones are always wide-ruled), and it just feels neater.

Here is your picture:

Race stuff and feats are on the back. Don't try to make sense of the numbers because I run all sorts of patches in my games.

I'm also curious how one runs a Tome Game?, especially with more Wizard classes like Soulborn, Fighter, Soldier, and so on. Since most DM's likely aren't going to have system mastery of the game, optimization or otherwise, but still want to challenge players. Without having such the hefty requirement of knowing all of the games abuses and so forth. I know myself, seem bit put off trying to run 3rd edition again, based on its such messy high level design, and the seemingly steep knowledge for optimization required to properly DM a Tome Game. I also wonder if the game works well enough using Wealth By Level, even if you give the +1/3 enhancement bonus or some such other needed bonuses?

Like Red_Rob said, just keep them a few levels behind the curve and they do pretty well. The biggest problem is getting players through chargen, because tome provides a bigger information hump to overcome before you can play.

WBL works in tome about as well as it did in 3e. BoG is generally easier for me to teach to players, but you won't be dooming the game by using WBL.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:43 pm

Thank you both kindly for the advice so far, and I'll certainly have to try using some Graph Paper sometime.

Red_Rob wrote: Running a Tome game is just like running any other game of D&D. You just look at the characters and what they are capable of and throw together some challenges based on that. You don't need to be a master of optimization unless your players are, just like regular D&D.

Just think of it like running for a group composed entirely of Wizards, Clerics and Druids. Just up the CR's by a few points and go.

Hell yeah, it's high time my friends get to feel truly BA as non-casters in Fantasy RPG's. Though my history in the past of running D&D, was one full of ignorance, which I didn't know the basic flaws of the game that I do now (spellcasters being most consistent with encounter system, noncasters fall off X ranges, etc.), where I did have games which Clerics healed, Wizards evoked and such other madness. So, this coincides your mentioning of assumption like a party of wizards, though I've never ran a game where there was such a party not playing to such redundant sub optimal tactics. Though I, and some of my group (will) know better now, all the same not something I've been exposed to in my DMing experience all that much. It's made even more important in that I would intend to play at higher levels of around 13th+.

So, basically assume their EL more like EL+3, and thus running encounters that are commonly like four levels above theirs? Which CR system usually indicates that as "Overpowering", but given their level of might, it should be a 50/50 challenging encounter?

...You Lost Me wrote:The biggest problem is getting players through chargen, because tome provides a bigger information hump to overcome before you can play.

At the risk of sounding like a dumb question, what are these information "humps"? Is it basically the idea of having to read some of the Frank/K Tome content as well? I'd imagine a Tome game does have its heavy use of other houserules as well, so it does certainly sound like it can be harder to get new players to the system regardless.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:22 am

The nice thing about the tomes is that you can go in completely ignorant, grab stuff that sounds cool, and still come out contributing to the party. You might be effectively a level or two behind a more optimized character.

The difference is, in 3e gnome fighter with Alertness, Lightning Reflexes, Blind Fight, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Dodge, and Mobility sounds pretty cool if you have no idea what any of that stuff does. Then you try to play it and discover that you're worse than an NPC dwarf warrior--let alone a barbarian. And then you see what a wizard can do and shit your pants.

In the Tome series, you make a gnome fighter with Danger Sense, Lightning Reflexes, Blind Fighting, Elusive Target, Expert Tactician, and Whirlwind. And you realize that you're actually pretty competitive, and you learn to use 'problem solver' for things like Giant Slayer. You're still not quite as crazy as that min/maxer's wizard character, but you can definitely contribute both in and out of combat.

My point is, the Tome series makes a lot of those learning 'humps' less important, which is a very good thing for new players.