Ten Levels
Moderator: Moderators
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- Knight-Baron
- Posts: 826
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:49 am
- Foxwarrior
- Duke
- Posts: 1639
- Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:54 am
- Location: RPG City, USA
Yes. Fuck Yes.sabs wrote:What you can't do.. is be "A regular human who wins by being all fucking plucky and shit."
This guy gets it.
Why can't the rest of you conksuckers understand this in really simple.sabs wrote:I still don't understand why people feel this need to have high level characters who have 'trained up'. Why can't you just have picked up a new power source, like Spiderman.
Fighter gives you access to maneuvers, the knowledge of how to fight with weapons, how to wear and use armor effectively in combat, tactics, etc...
At some point, you need to pick up a prestige class that gets you power ups.
- Foxwarrior
- Duke
- Posts: 1639
- Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:54 am
- Location: RPG City, USA
No, Soda, you are making a distinction where there isn't one, and I am pointing that out to you.
If I cast gate by waving my arms around in a circle and saying "Gotta Go!", and you cut a circular hole to another plane by karate chopping a circle and saying some frivolous one-liner, why would one and only one of us be mundane?
If I cast gate by waving my arms around in a circle and saying "Gotta Go!", and you cut a circular hole to another plane by karate chopping a circle and saying some frivolous one-liner, why would one and only one of us be mundane?
So to be clear, waving your hands around and creating a portal is called "spellcasting" but swinging a sword around and creating a portal is mundane sword swinging with a non mundane effect?Soda wrote:You mean conjuring, spellcasting, summoning, evoking, divining? Now you're just being difficult.Foxwarrior wrote:Ah, so it's the actions that are mundane. Like reading a book, memorizing symbols, and doing a funny dance while speaking nonsense and throwing guano.
Did you tell Monks that they are really conjuring bruises by waving their hands around?
Seriously dumb shit, he's not being difficult, he is accurately making the point that Wizards already do non magical actions that have magical effects, and we don't call them mundane, so when fightery people perform non magical actions with magical effects, they are not mundane either.
That is the entire point. There is no reason to talk about people who's actions are mundane but who's effects are not mundane as "mundane" because fuck you, Wizards also take mundane actions with non mundane effects.
Last edited by Kaelik on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Superman is an alien.fbmf wrote:So Superman is mundane?Using the latter interpretation, it is clear that a guy who can punch holes in steel is totally mundane if he has that capacity in virtue of training, genetics, or anything at all - except for spells, psionics, etc.
Game On,
fbmf
Now the Karate Kid is just a normal human who can canonically beat Superman in a fight just because he's really good at Karate.
I bow at your superior trolling.hyzmarca wrote:Superman is an alien.fbmf wrote:So Superman is mundane?Using the latter interpretation, it is clear that a guy who can punch holes in steel is totally mundane if he has that capacity in virtue of training, genetics, or anything at all - except for spells, psionics, etc.
Game On,
fbmf
Now the Karate Kid is just a normal human who can canonically beat Superman in a fight just because he's really good at Karate.
But by virtue of genetics he can punch through a wall. That's all I'm saying.hyzmarca wrote:Superman is an alien.fbmf wrote:So Superman is mundane?Using the latter interpretation, it is clear that a guy who can punch holes in steel is totally mundane if he has that capacity in virtue of training, genetics, or anything at all - except for spells, psionics, etc.
Game On,
fbmf
Now the Karate Kid is just a normal human who can canonically beat Superman in a fight just because he's really good at Karate.
Game On,
fbmf
- OgreBattle
- King
- Posts: 6820
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am
It is even more stupid because it rewards a specific kind of skill, complete bullshitting of absurd circumstances.sabs wrote:That's just.. dumb Ogre.
I'm sorry, but that's like saying, "I want Miracles to be true, but without that pesky Divinity stuff."
For fighter to be not just more powerful, but substantially more powerful for someone with a specific non game related skill. It is the exact reason we don't play Magic Tea Party for combat.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
I don't understand what you're saying. There is no Compromise, I am a racist (and so are you). Are you trying to confuse me? It's working because I don't understand what you're trying to do here.Kaelik wrote:Because you know that would make the same amount of sense. When someone points out they aren't racist, we can compromise by calling them racist enough, because that would be as accurate as "Mundane Enough" is here.
Oh, I understand exactly what's going on here. This is what's going on:Lord Mistborn wrote:Listen you appear to not understand. You can not have mundane characters that remain relevant over the standard D&D level progression. The is not an opinion it is a imutable fact the sempai and I are stating.
1. You can not have "realistic" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.
2. You can not have "extraordinary" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.
You are saying statement number one and I am going to respond to statement number 2. That's what this is all about and you can either keep arguing about it or we can do the productive thing and relabel these concepts in ways to get rid of the ambiguity.
Also, why ain't your name Mistborn-Sama? THIS HAS ALWAYS BOTHERED ME.
ACTUALLY, *puts on nerd glasses* Superman's powers (and thus all kryptonians) are technically psychic (telekinesis) and disqualify him from being considered Extraordinary.fbmf wrote:So Superman is mundane?
PSY DUCK?
- NineInchNall
- Duke
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
(Assumption: Supe's powers are not as wrathzog just described.)fbmf wrote:So Superman is mundane?
Game On,
fbmf
In a world like, oh, Greyhawk: Yes.
Look at it this way, none of the people with hard-ons for Fighters or Barbarians and hatred for "wimpy magic types" seems to have any problem with playing a race like goliaths or fucking minotaurs. It's all going to be relativized to the context of whatever game & world you're in.
Last edited by NineInchNall on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Okay, I can't tell in what way you are being retarded. Are you actually racist, or do you just not understand the concept that words have a meaning, and when the words do not accurately convey the concept, you should choose different words.Wrathzog wrote:I don't understand what you're saying. There is no Compromise, I am a racist (and so are you). Are you trying to confuse me? It's working because I don't understand what you're trying to do here.Kaelik wrote:Because you know that would make the same amount of sense. When someone points out they aren't racist, we can compromise by calling them racist enough, because that would be as accurate as "Mundane Enough" is here.
Why are you saying this to Mistborn, he is not opposed to rebranding, he is one of the ones advocating it. Once we have successfully accomplished the rebranding that will get people to stop fapping to mundane, then we can have the separate discussion about how "extraordinary" is also boring, but totally possible to keep up.Wrathzog wrote:Oh, I understand exactly what's going on here. This is what's going on:Lord Mistborn wrote:Listen you appear to not understand. You can not have mundane characters that remain relevant over the standard D&D level progression. The is not an opinion it is a imutable fact the sempai and I are stating.
1. You can not have "realistic" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.
2. You can not have "extraordinary" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.
You are saying statement number one and I am going to respond to statement number 2. That's what this is all about and you can either keep arguing about it or we can do the productive thing and relabel these concepts in ways to get rid of the ambiguity.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
I'm opposed to Charles Atlas superpowers because not only are they boring and kind of stupid but they don't do enough. For one thing they can not be used for any thing interesting.Kaelik wrote:Why are you saying this to Mistborn, he is not opposed to rebranding, he is one of the ones advocating it. Once we have successfully accomplished the rebranding that will get people to stop fapping to mundane, then we can have the separate discussion about how "extraordinary" is also boring, but totally possible to keep up.Wrathzog wrote: Oh, I understand exactly what's going on here. This is what's going on:
1. You can not have "realistic" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.
2. You can not have "extraordinary" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.
You are saying statement number one and I am going to respond to statement number 2. That's what this is all about and you can either keep arguing about it or we can do the productive thing and relabel these concepts in ways to get rid of the ambiguity.
On top of that punching things is lame. Punching ghosts and punching through reality (and let's not kid ourselves that's what you need to be able to do to keep punching thing relvent for all 20 levels) is completely retarded especially when people keep scrambling to a the but it's totally mundane tag to it.FrankTrollman wrote:Exactly the same ability mechanically, but the lack flavor text that elevates it to superhuman action means that the very instant it comes to an MC judgement call you are being restrained by whatever the MC's predispositions about what "real humans can do" are. Charles Atlas super powers cannot compete in a wide variety of roles because they cannot be used to knot cut in many scenarios where phlebtonium powers can.
There are of course exceptions. As previously noted, it is quite possible to have nominally non-magical diplomacy and stealth abilities that remain valid when people around you are doing "high level stuff". But even then I would urge caution: think about all the pushback that D&D Diplomacy gets that D&D charm monster doesn't get. Think about all of Andy Collins' stealth nerfs to Hide that he never would have even considered dumping on invisibility.
When you proactively decide the interesting stuff 'is retarded', of course you're going to find it boring.Lord Mistborn wrote:I'm opposed to Charles Atlas superpowers because not only are they boring and kind of stupid but they don't do enough. For one thing they can not be used for any thing interesting.
Interesting powers that can be given Charles Atlas descriptors
- Dodging (Batman, Naruto)
- Super Speed (Naruto)
- Super Strength (Naruto, Illiad, Mandarin, Milo, Phantom)
- Foresight (all of the genius characters)
- Flight (Black Condor)
- Invisibility (The Shadow)
- Mind Control (mesmirists w/a watch)
- Telepathy (Ogun)
- Resurrection (God of War I, Dr McNinja)
Last edited by virgil on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
How can dodging be interesting?virgil wrote:Interesting powers that can be given Charles Atlas descriptors
- Dodging (Batman, Naruto)
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
1,2, and 3 aren't enough to keep of with people who have real classesvirgil wrote:When you proactively decide the interesting stuff 'is retarded', of course you're going to find it boring.
Interesting powers that can be given Charles Atlas descriptors
- Dodging (Batman, Naruto)
- Super Speed (Naruto)
- Super Strength (Naruto, Illiad, Mandarin, Milo, Phantom)
- Foresight (all of the genius characters)
- Flight (Black Condor)
- Invisibility (The Shadow)
- Mind Control (mesmirists w/a watch)
- Telepathy (Ogun)
- Resurrection (God of War I, Dr McNinja)
4 involves metagamey shenanigans and thus is dumb.
5,6,7,8 are all retarded and that's really all their is to say on the matter.
Last edited by Mistborn on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lord Mistborn wrote:5,6,7,8 are all retarded and that's really all their is to say on the matter.
It's not my fault that you don't have the imagination to use foresight in a game that isn't purely metagame. I guess the Flash should quit the Justice League so someone who can actually keep up will take his slot? Once again, of course Charles Atlas descriptors won't going to do enough when you arbitrarily restrict it to stuff that won't do enough, kind of tautalogical.virgil wrote:When you proactively decide the interesting stuff 'is retarded', of course you're going to find it boring.
@ishy - I should probably expand the idea to include deflecting/redirecting and include those who just plain don't get hurt, including the Tome Jester's power slide
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
I am legitimately prejudiced against people due to superficial reasons like skin color. I don't understand theKaelik wrote:Okay, I can't tell in what way you are being retarded. Are you actually racist, or do you just not understand the concept that words have a meaning, and when the words do not accurately convey the concept, you should choose different words.
Well, until people stop using the m-word we can't get have that second discussion (which is the one that I actually want).Why are you saying this to Mistborn, he is not opposed to rebranding, he is one of the ones advocating it. Once we have successfully accomplished the rebranding that will get people to stop fapping to mundane, then we can have the separate discussion about how "extraordinary" is also boring, but totally possible to keep up.
But even then, he's obviously not even here to discuss that. All he's had to say on the topic has been, "NOPE. NO NO NO NO NO NOPE."
PSY DUCK?
5-8 Are not Charles Atlas, so most of your point kind of dies. Hell, 1-4 can be Charles Atlas, but aren't in all of your examples.virgil wrote:Interesting powers that can be given Charles Atlas descriptors
- Dodging (Batman, Naruto)
- Super Speed (Naruto)
- Super Strength (Naruto, Illiad, Mandarin, Milo, Phantom)
- Foresight (all of the genius characters)
- Flight (Black Condor)
- Invisibility (The Shadow)
- Mind Control (mesmirists w/a watch)
- Telepathy (Ogun)
- Resurrection (God of War I, Dr McNinja)
I fucking hate this bullshit Wrathzog. I'm not going to keep going to see how long you can troll. Say something that makes sense or I am putting you on ignore.Wrathzog wrote:I am legitimately prejudiced against people due to superficial reasons like skin color. I don't understand theKaelik wrote:Okay, I can't tell in what way you are being retarded. Are you actually racist, or do you just not understand the concept that words have a meaning, and when the words do not accurately convey the concept, you should choose different words.
No, he has said three things:Wrathzog wrote:Well, until people stop using the m-word we can't get have that second discussion (which is the one that I actually want).
But even then, he's obviously not even here to discuss that. All he's had to say on the topic has been, "NOPE. NO NO NO NO NO NOPE."
1) That people should stop using the word mundane for the things that are not mundane.
2) That a mundane character cannot keep up. (Or whatever the other thing you used that wasn't "Extraordinary.")
3) That an "Extraordinary" character is boring.
It doesn't make sense for you to direct an argument for using words other than mundane at him, because he is on your side in that argument.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Naruto's Rock Lee is considered prime Charles Atlas, and he comes with super strength and speed. Nameless soldiers throw boulders in the Iliad, Mandarin's ability to literally rip Iron Man's suit off is purely from kung fu training. Black Condor flies because he was raised by condors, and they later retcon it as a mutation (same principle for Kratos). Mesmerists aren't considered magic, as it's a trick any schmoe can learn (ex. Dark Tower's Roland), and the Shadow's tricks are from the same source (training). I guess another mind controller with a sword would be Jin-e from Rurouni Kenshin, as if you can completely paralyze someone it's not a huge leap to include making them follow your commands.Kaelik wrote:5-8 Are not Charles Atlas, so most of your point kind of dies. Hell, 1-4 can be Charles Atlas, but aren't in all of your examples.virgil wrote:Interesting powers that can be given Charles Atlas descriptors
- Dodging (Batman, Naruto)
- Super Speed (Naruto)
- Super Strength (Naruto, Illiad, Mandarin, Milo, Phantom)
- Foresight (all of the genius characters)
- Flight (Black Condor)
- Invisibility (The Shadow)
- Mind Control (mesmirists w/a watch)
- Telepathy (Ogun)
- Resurrection (God of War I, Dr McNinja)
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!