OSR movement threat or menace?

[hyzmarca]

The big thing you want to avoid with purely or effectively level based feat-style options is the Iron Heroes problem where higher level abilities completely shit on lower level abilities that don't operate as prerequisites. Iron Heroes has what are in effect bizarre reverse feat chains, where if you want to take the feat that eliminates the penalty for fighting in the dark when you get high enough level to take it, you sure as fuck aren't going to want to waste one of your lower level feat slots on the feat that reduces that penalty in the meantime.

There's a couple of things you can do about that. One of them is "scaling feats", where feats just grow individually as you level. That's hard, because it's hard to make some abilities grow into something that makes fuckall difference at higher levels (see the jump discussions with the 4rries).

-Username17

There is a trivially easy way to deal with this, refunds. If you spend a level 1 feat slot on fire resistance, and then take fire immunity, you get that feat slot back and can choose a new level 1 feat.

If you wanted, you could even emulate some very good flash games and have a reset button that refunds all your feat slots/points/whatever if you feel that you've taken a trap option.

[Mistborn]

Mostly. You're still going to have intraclassular customizable stuff like a Wizard's spellbook.

This is a thing I've been thinking about what if insead of each class having a one fuckhuge list of spells you had some kind class independant groups of spells that serve as building blocks for each classes spell list. Sort of like the Sphere from the Tomes. It would be a great way to regin is some of the wizard absurdness and especially the cleric/druid know all the spells bullcrap. So say your Bob the wizard you don't cast off the wizard spell list you cast of the list of sphere that you have access too which where selected from your giant list of sphere you chose from as you level up as a wizard.

[kzt]

This is a thing I've been thinking about what if insead of each class having a one fuckhuge list of spells you had some kind class independant groups of spells that serve as building blocks for each classes spell list.

Like Gurps Magic?

[Username17]

Yeah, respeccing makes higher level abilities obviating lower level abilities a lot more palatable. There can be some weird edge cases where lower level abilities become merely less useful rather than useless when they are partially obviated. But since it's also a good cure for unintentional trap options it's a good thing to do.

This is a thing I've been thinking about what if insead of each class having a one fuckhuge list of spells you had some kind class independant groups of spells that serve as building blocks for each classes spell list. Sort of like the Sphere from the Tomes. It would be a great way to regin is some of the wizard absurdness and especially the cleric/druid know all the spells bullcrap. So say your Bob the wizard you don't cast off the wizard spell list you cast of the list of sphere that you have access too which where selected from your giant list of sphere you chose from as you level up as a wizard.

No deal. Universal spell lists completely kill role protection and interact absolutely terribly with multiple resource mechanics. The thing is that you actually do want to have some sort of global mechanics on how healing works (to name an obvious but by no means exclusive example). And that means the healing abilities that appear in an "everything at will" or WoF class need different restrictions built in to the abilities themselves than the healing abilities of a class that has at-will access to their shit.

To name a really obvious example, it's totally fine for a "Full Heal" ability to exist as a once per day ability, but it's equally not OK for a "Full Heal" ability to be usable every round (or every other round). Not just because it would render wounds and attrition completely meaningless, but because it would create frequent scenarios where neither faction in combat could make any progress because Full Healing could clear off all the damage any side could inflict as fast as they inflicted it.

So if you have a big master list of spells, then either you can't have the spell Full Heal at all, or you can't allow players to play characters with at-will access to their abilities. Both are shitty solutions, so the master list causes more problems than it solves.

-Username17

[OgreBattle]

So if you have a big master list of spells, then either you can't have the spell Full Heal at all, or you can't allow players to play characters with at-will access to their abilities. Both are shitty solutions, so the master list causes more problems than it solves.

-Username17

Couldn't you roughly balance it out by breaking down what's appropriate as an at-will and as a daily by their level?

So at-will characters can choose tierI spells for their round-by-round move, while a WoF character of the same level can choose a tierIII spell as their "once a day" move. By the time the at-will character reaches level 5, he can equip tierIII spells as his at-will while the 'once a day' fellow is using tierV spells.

[Username17]

So if you have a big master list of spells, then either you can't have the spell Full Heal at all, or you can't allow players to play characters with at-will access to their abilities. Both are shitty solutions, so the master list causes more problems than it solves.

-Username17

Couldn't you roughly balance it out by breaking down what's appropriate as an at-will and as a daily by their level?

That is the 4e solution. But then everyone has to have at-will, encounter, and daily powers. And no one is allowed to be a Cooldown, WoF, Spell Points, Always At-Will, Drain or anything else character ever.

I'm not saying that the big master list can't be balanced (although really it's a couple of master lists because Full Heal is never OK as an at-will at any level), I'm saying you can't have Warlocks, Crusaders, Psions, or anything else if you do that. And that is way fucking too much to give up for the sum total advantage of "saves 60 pages worth of ability writeups".

So at-will characters can choose tierI spells for their round-by-round move, while a WoF character of the same level can choose a tierIII spell as their "once a day" move. By the time the at-will character reaches level 5, he can equip tierIII spells as his at-will while the 'once a day' fellow is using tierV spells.

This doesn't make any sense and you should feel deep and abiding shame. If you seriously have different lists of abilities for characters with different resource systems can have at each level, then you don't have a fucking master ability list, do you?

-Username17

[OgreBattle]

If you seriously have different lists of abilities for characters with different resource systems can have at each level, then you don't have a fucking master ability list, do you?

-Username17

What I mean is having one list. Taking a "I only have dailies" power scheme allows you to choose higher level powers compared to the "I only have at-wills guy" So the low level wizard can fast Fireball, while the low level warlock cannot. When the warlock does get high level enough to unlock Fireball as an at-will, the Wizard can cast some bigger effect by then. They would both be using the same list, they just progress through the list at different paces.

I'm saying you can't have Warlocks, Crusaders, Psions, or anything else if you do that.

Yeah, the power levels of those guys seems more troublesome. It's pretty easy for me to know that "a daily is more powerful than an at-will", but balancing the power of a WoF, Drain, or power point move is getting more muddled.

Like say... we have a "shoots a ball of fire" move for level 1 characters. How would it be different if it was used by an at-will, encounter, daily, drain, power point or WoF class? Could a formula of damage appropriateness be made?

[Username17]

What I mean is having one list. Taking a "I only have dailies" power scheme allows you to choose higher level powers compared to the "I only have at-wills guy"

That's stupid. The difference between what is appropriate for a daily ability and what is appropriate for an at-will ability isn't measured or measurable in levels. Full Heal is appropriate as a once per day event at level 1 and stays appropriate as a once per day event at all levels. It's not appropriate as an at-will at any level. That's just the way it is. Use limited abilities have fundamentally different concerns than unlimited abilities. Use limited abilities can interact with things that are supposed to be rationed in combat (like turns and hit points) in ways that unlimited abilities cannot be.

There are spells that are not on the Warlock list that are on the Wizard, Cleric, or Druid list that won't be Warlock appropriate next level or the level after that, or in fact any level ever. Because unlimited use of many things is game destroying in ways that the ability to use something 3-5 times a day never will be. Everything from Fabricate to True Resurrection.


Remember that all you're accomplishing with the master ability list in the first place is that you can cut down the lists of class abilities by about 60 pages. If you have to write 60 pages worth of fucking around and exceptions to keep from hurting the game in the process, you haven't gained anything at all.

-Username17

[wotmaniac]

Dammit Frank, now you're just being myopic (and a bit hyperbolic, if I do say so myself). Usually when I disagree with you, it's largely a stylistic issue -- but this time you're just being hard-headed.

It's neither hard nor space-consuming to put little notations next to certain spells (noting exceptions), and then you'd need all of a 3-inch block at the beginning of the spells chapter fully explaining what all those notations mean (assuming both double-column format and being excessively diffuse)

So, you (the designer/writer) go through the spells list and decide which ones would never be appropriate to have "at-will", and you put a little "1" next to it (or whatever the hell type of notation you want to use). Rinse and repeat for each type of special exception you might need to write in for various spells.
For the sake of completeness, you might have to spend up to maybe 1 whole page in flowery detail obfuscating why certain spells have these exceptions. Done.
That's a far cry from "60 pages"

[Username17]

Wotmanic, can you even hear yourself talk? The entire point, and I do mean the entire point of making a master ability list is to simplify shit. If you're busting out little notations to show whether something is "OK" to be plugged in to one resource system or another, it isn't simple any more.

And lest we forget, drain systems, mana systems, and cooldown systems aren't binary. You can't just put a little subscript 4, 5, or 6 to show that they can be used in those systems. They need backlashes, mana costs, and cooldown timers.

But the bottom line is that the very idea is completely stupid. Our once/encounter fire blast needs to be slightly larger than the fire blast that it usable all the time. And the at-will fire blast that the guy with a once/encounter fire blast defaults to when his encounter blast is used up needs to be slightly smaller than the at-will fire blast of the character who uses their at-will fire blast all the way through the encounter. That's three different versions of fire blast, and while you could put little subscript numbers on them to tell people which slots you can shove them into based on what resource systems you're using, that would be retarded. Because by that point you can't saved any space at all, and the only real effect is that you've made the abilities you can actually take harder to find because the powers that are set up to be used with Mana Points are scattered throughout one giant chapter with everyone's abilities in it instead of listed in a single compact 4-8 page writeup of all the abilities your class can use.

Fucking hell man, think this shit through. The Master Ability List idea has specific reasons for existing. But those reasons are corrosive to and incompatible with most of the things that make class systems interesting or useful. There is no a priori reason to shove everything into a master ability list, you'd only do it if you wanted to accomplish something in particular. And the only thing it would ever be applicable to is a game where everyone had the same resource system and flavor. So it could work in a "you are all vampires" type game, but if you want tactically distinct character classes it is 100% made of fail.

-Username17

[ishy]

Besides that, who would want to gain a lvl and then be able to say: "hah now I can use ability X which player B was using 4 lvls ago (and upgraded 2 lvls ago to a better one)"?

[wotmaniac]

While you have made valid points .... at this point, you seem like you're talking out both sides of your mouth (unless I've missed something):
First, you talk about having each class write-up take only 2 pages (which you can do if you have a master list); and now you're talking about each class taking 4-8 pages .... and while that may obviate the need for a master list, you've saved absolutely no space (and possibly even increased page count).

Having multiple resource management systems necessarily means inflated page counts. But if you have to imbed the individual powers lists in to each class, then you're reinventing the wheel each time -- this bloats page count because now you have to do a full write-up for each power each and every time it shows up in a class.
However, there oughta be a way to address things simply in the description of the resource management system(s) that still allows you to reference a master list. Full Heal is Full Heal; True Resurrection is True Resurrection; there are some powers that simply do one thing no matter what; but, without a master list, you have to put a full write-up every time it appears in a class (unless, of course, you happen to actually be a fan of having to cross-reference between classes just to know what your powers do). However, surely there's a way to write-up Fire Blast so that the basic effect is sufficiently clear, but is vague enough in its scale that the description of the resource management system can handle said scale.
While this may seem complicated on its face, it's really not. There are piles of spells that are just pallet swaps of each other, and thus solving for 1 is simultaneously solving for all those pallet swaps. I mean, you really only have, what, 8-10 kinds of spells ("spell templates", if you will)? with maybe 10% being outliers?

Now look at your 3 different versions of Fire Blast:
When you write how Fire Blast scales, you also have just written how every other elemental AoE scales. So, when you lay out the various resource management systems, the system(s) it self handles how elemental AoEs scale -- so you have maybe 5 advancement scales, total, for every spell, ever.
Then it's just plug and go.

I'm sure there is an argument to be made for how this is more complicated (and thus counter-productive); however, I say no. Multiple resource management systems is the confounding factor -- you're gonna have to actually do the break-down at some point. It's just a matter of whether you want to do it on the front end or the back end.

Besides that, who would want to gain a lvl and then be able to say: "hah now I can use ability X which player B was using 4 lvls ago (and upgraded 2 lvls ago to a better one)"?

In itself, this is largely irrelevant.
What's relevant is the scale, and how it fits in to the character in question.

[Username17]

While you have made valid points .... at this point, you seem like you're talking out both sides of your mouth (unless I've missed something):
First, you talk about having each class write-up take only 2 pages (which you can do if you have a master list); and now you're talking about each class taking 4-8 pages .... and while that may obviate the need for a master list, you've saved absolutely no space (and possibly even increased page count).

I'm going to stop you right there, because you seem to be missing some fairly fundamental things.

A class on rails fits in 2 pages or less. Even including the illustration and flavor text. A class which gets selectable abilities from a list gets an extra 4-8 pages depending on how many you're selecting and how many you're selecting from each time. It's like how the Conduit of the Lower Planes takes up a lot more real space than the Firemage, because the Conduit has a big list of Spheres to choose from and the Firemage just has a list of powers and an order for them to appear.

What a Master Ability List does is collect all the abilities from all the selectable ability lists into one giant pile, and then prune all the duplicates, and then add text to each remaining entry to tell you who can take it. If the total word count of the duplicate abilities that you can cut is more than the total added word count of explaining who can take what ability, you've shortened the book. If it isn't, you've lengthened the book. Either way, you've made it more of a pain in the ass to choose abilities for your specific character because the chapter now includes abilities you can't take in between abilities you can.

And I am telling you right now that if your classes are interesting and distinct from one another, the literal ability overlap should be very low and the amount of text you can shave by shoving everything into a Master Ability List should be negligible. Which means that in addition to making the book less user friendly, it probably wouldn't save much if any space.

-Username17

[wotmaniac]

Okay, so evidently I was conflating 2 different concepts you were discussing .... duly noted.

Now, before I go off on my rant, let me ask you this:
What do you think of a format that has the powers list imbedded in the class description, but has the power descriptions consolidated in to a master list? The idea being that you can see at a glance what's in a particular class's wheelhouse, while not having to reprint a power's description every time it happens to show up on a class list and/or complicating matters with inordinate cross-referencing.


[rant]
That being said, I'm a little skeptical about your #s:
- class on rails -- I'm sure that there would be some classes that could be done (complete with art and superfluous fluff) in 2 pages. However, for a full spectrum of classes, that's only gonna happen if you either (a) front-load the class with a fistful of scalable abilities, (b) abridge pretty-much everything in the write-up, or (c) have very simplistic characters/abilities (and I'm intentionally using "simplistic", as opposed to "simple")
(but I"m not really concerned with on-rails classes, so I'll move on ....)
- varied and interesting classes with selectable abilities -- the D&D3.5 PHB averages about 5 spells per page in the spells chapter, using triple-column format .... if you're imbedding the abilities in the class description itself, you're probably using the standard double-column, which is probably gonna drop that a bit (I'll be generous and say 4.5 spells per page) ... so, an 8-page write-up, with 2 pages for basic class stuff (even though 3.5 PHB averages 3 pages per class -- but I'll give you that one), leaving 6 pages for just spells, has less than 30 spells -- and that's just spells. The Core Bard knows 35 spells; and a Core Sorcerer knows 43. That's 10 pages worth of just selected spells.
So, your "60 spells (minimum) to get you to level 10" (which seems reasonable) doesn't take "4 pages" -- it takes 12+.
Any time any class shares as little as 4 whole spells, you've add a whole page per class. I understand not wanting very much cross-over; but the "imbed everything in the class itself" format means that any cross-over whatsoever will literally shatter your printing budget. In order to keep cross-over from breaking the bank, you'd end up having to do so much cross-referencing that your quest for simplicity would actually be counter-productive.

Furthermore, sure, it's all nice and convenient to have the full write-up of all the wizard's spells embedded right there in the class write-up .... from the perspective of the guy who only cares about just wizards. Otherwise, I believe that this format just may introduce an added barrier to entry, in that if I'm poring through the book to get a handle on what the individual classes do, seeing a 15-page class write-up is going to be a bit intimidating. So, our barrier to entry is twofold: (1) seeing a half-dozen classes that have 15-page write-ups (remember, this is just the basic character classes -- this doesn't include the rest of the rules of the game) is gonna make the game look more complicated than it has to look; (2) maybe I've broken the initial barrier and went with some of the simpler classes -- those 15-page write-ups are still gonna be intimidating -- why am I gonna try to mess with that when I feel like I do just fine with my little 4-page class? Conversely, if I see this 3-page write-up on the wizard, I'll be more inclined to at least kick the tires a little -- once I've committed to at least trying it, then it's easier to get me to examine the spell descriptions and get around to actually selecting spells.
Not only that, but if I'm trying to quick-reference through the classes, any more than 3-4 pages per class is going to be more time consuming that I want to mess with (and I'm talking about the time that it takes to simply thumb the pages).

So, at what point do you stop letting simplicity get in the way of other practical concerns?
[/rant]

[ishy]

Now, before I go off on my rant, let me ask you this:
What do you think of a format that has the powers list imbedded in the class description, but has the power descriptions consolidated in to a master list? The idea being that you can see at a glance what's in a particular class's wheelhouse, while not having to reprint a power's description every time it happens to show up on a class list and/or complicating matters with inordinate cross-referencing.

That sounds like the way 3.x handles spells. It saves on space if you have lots of spells on multiple class lists etc. But as a player I hate it. I'd prefer to have the spells seperated by class. It makes it a lot easier to browse through my actual options. Which is why I usually create my own files to sort through the spells available to me in easier ways.
Your choice here will probably really depend on media, if you print books you want them to be as cheap as possible (with max functionality), while for electronic options space isn't as restrictive.

[Username17]

What do you think of a format that has the powers list imbedded in the class description, but has the power descriptions consolidated in to a master list? The idea being that you can see at a glance what's in a particular class's wheelhouse, while not having to reprint a power's description every time it happens to show up on a class list and/or complicating matters with inordinate cross-referencing.

I can't for the life of me think of what this is supposed to solve. That's the 3e organizational system, more or less, and it is actually pretty terrible. Consider what a fuck nut that is to make expansion material for. Esepcially when you make expansion material for the expansion material. You make a Wu Jen class and it has function calls to spells in the main book that don't say Wu Jen on them, and then you make an expansion book that has more Wu Jen spells on it and they aren't in the Wu Jen spell list. And the end result is that you have Wu Jen spells that aren't labeled as such and you have Wu Jen spells that aren't in the list. That is fucked.

the D&D3.5 PHB averages about 5 spells per page in the spells chapter, using triple-column format

The D&D 3.5 spell format is terrible. Seriously, that's one of the worst setups I've ever seen. It's full of redundancies, descriptions are vague, and important information is given in non-standardized ways if at all. Shadowrun fits 15 spells on a page and the spell writeups are actually clearer. Using a halfway decent spell format, 60 spells fits on 4 pages with space for headers and shit. This is not even a problem.

Basically the rest of your rant goes back to "What if we fail at typesetting?", a question which I think answers itself.

-Username17

[codeGlaze]

I found having to thumb through half a billion pages in between classes to be extremely tedious in 4e.

[Username17]

I found having to thumb through half a billion pages in between classes to be extremely tedious in 4e.

4e has its own problems. The writeups for a class are twelve thousand words long. At a sensible 60 words per ability, that would be enough to write up two hundred abilities. It's just absurd.

But beyond the insane verbosity, the format is just nuts. The game is supposed to hit major branching points with new class titles being taken on at levels 11 and 21. And yet, they heap all the Paragon and Epic abilities into the basic class description. That doesn't make any fucking sense. When you become a Demigod or an Archmage, the ability writeups should be with those classes - and those classes should be listed with the other classes of their tier.

Even with 4e's berserk and contemptuous wasting of page space, it's still roughly three times as long to get from Ranger to Rogue as it should be. The Paragon and Epic shit should go in their own sections (and quite likely not be in the PHB1 at all).

-Username17

[Fuchs]

I do not think there'll be many players who will not use electronically compiled lists for classes and characters, or character generators.

[Username17]

I do not think there'll be many players who will not use electronically compiled lists for classes and characters, or character generators.

If by "not very many" you mean "only tens of millions", then you have a point.

-Username17

[Fuchs]

I do not think there'll be many players who will not use electronically compiled lists for classes and characters, or character generators.

If by "not very many" you mean "only tens of millions", then you have a point.

-Username17

Tens of millions will buy this new game, and all of them will be luddites who won't use computers? Sounds a bit too optimistic to me. The average roleplayer is usually quite fond of new technology, and does not shy away from using web resources or custom character sheets.

[Saxony]

I'll weigh in. I use a computer and the internet very heavily when I build characters. I have a text document detailing the exact plan and inexact plan of every character I play (probably 4-5 pages each for completed characters). I also keep the text documents of every character I have ever played on my computer for reference in building new characters.

But what I bring to the table is a printed out character sheet. I do not bring my computer. I do not use an automatic character builder. I use compilations of information on the internet, but build the characters myself. I generally read the actual books to know exactly what the available options are.

In all my years of playing table top role playing games, I have met one (1) person who used a character sheet on a computer, rather than on paper.

You two might do well to expand your claims with nuance rather than typing out snippy one-liners and then going back and saying "You're still wrong, because this real paragraph of explanation is what I actually meant even though I didn't write it."

[John Magnum]

How many games even have electronically compiled lists for classes and character generator apps that aren't barely-usable garbage? Do any?

[unnamednpc]

Even this mythical "average roleplayer" you just made up is likely going to shit in your open throat if you expect them to happily use digital, homemade supplements because you willingly and knowingly made your product harder to use.

[hyzmarca]

How many games even have electronically compiled lists for classes and character generator apps that aren't barely-usable garbage? Do any?

SR3 has the NSRGC, which is fairly awesome. It's not perfect, but it's the best character generator I've ever seen.