Best damage allocation system

[Thymos]

I would argue that called hits are bad in systems with no hit locations.

Systems with hit locations can actually support it without issue.

So far I'm leaning towards having an hp pool, with location hits that disable certain abilities on crits or after the hp pool is depleted.

So a mecha has an armor pool or whatever, and when that's gone systems like legs, arms and power generators start going down as it is hit further.

I think in fantasy large monsters should have separate locations to hit, but no called shot in reality. The character simply chooses what to hit much like they would choose which enemy to hit when fighting multiple characters like a group of goblins.

Each separate hit location should disable some aspect of the monster, but one part would be tougher and be the kill part.

[zugschef]

a major problem i see with hit locations, called shots and hit points is that a substraction from your hit points doesn't actually have to mean that the character has actually suffered a wound -- at least not when you use hp as dnd uses them. hp are more like a pool of routine, luck and/or skill at fighting and a buffer before you suffer serious injury. including hit locations in a dnd-like hp system and making it rules-wise possible to, say, cut off an arm, would really be unbalancing.

[PhoneLobster]

including hit locations in a dnd-like hp system and making it rules-wise possible to, say, cut off an arm, would really be unbalancing.

Not in the slightest.

Disabling a limb in such a manner is a status effect. One in fact already in 3.x D&D for that matter, though that is largely irrelevant.

As a status effect it merely needs to be well defined and balanced and dealt by properly balanced attacks. It's purely a matter of having properly formalized rules and an appropriate balance point and is conceptually not really any different to Cause Blindness/Deafness or Hold Person.

People freak the fuck out over called shots in D&D for two reasons...

1) It's not formalized in core and usually exists through horrendous house rule cludges and tables that ARE deeply unbalanced and potentially tedious to administer as well.

2) The Fighters can't have nice things faction.

But really. As a potential mechanic they basically are just the difference between Magic Missile, Hold Person, or er, one that damages AND potentially deals a status effect, it's slipping my mind right now but you get the idea.

[zugschef]

including hit locations in a dnd-like hp system and making it rules-wise possible to, say, cut off an arm, would really be unbalancing.

Not in the slightest.

ok... then how about this: i attack your head. what happens now if i cut it off? and regeneration is a pretty high level spell, so if a monster cuts or bites off your leg in the early levels you're pretty fucked.

[Foxwarrior]

Zugschef: It's kind of silly to claim that something would be really unbalancing when nobody's specified any restrictions on how useless it can be.

Like so:

New Tactical Maneuver - Behead: To perform this maneuver, perform an attack with a -2 penalty. If this attack deals damage equal to or greater than the target's maximum HP, the target's head falls off.

[zugschef]

New Tactical Maneuver - Behead: To perform this maneuver, perform an attack with a -2 penalty. If this attack deals damage equal to or greater than the target's maximum HP, the target's head falls off.

i love it.

[Mistborn]

one that damages AND potentially deals a status effect, it's slipping my mind right now but you get the idea.

Orb of Fire?

[PhoneLobster]

ok... then how about this: i attack your head. what happens now if i cut it off?

A firmly defined status effect. Likely at least a defeat, possibly (temporary) death.

The problem with many called shot systems is they don't price that appropriately. There needs to be a cost in actions or chance of success. It needs to interact sensibly with available defense. Etc...

So if you have a system where you expect a character to fall down in say, 3 turns of normal attacks, your deadly death to the head attack needs to be of appropriately similar value, so, as a brief sketchy example...

Targets have 3 HP, normal attacks hit about 100% of the time and deal 1 HP, called shot Head hits about 30% of the time and deals death, or 3 HP in one go, we don't care exactly which.

An imperfect and hasty example but if you don't get the general idea from that you never will. Nor will you get ANY idea about designing diverse combat actions in general.

and regeneration is a pretty high level spell, so if a monster cuts or bites off your leg in the early levels you're pretty fucked.

So... then monsters that have the ability to bite your leg off only appear at the appropriate levels?

There is no reason in hell to give out a permanent status effect attack at levels significantly prior to the cure for the status effect.

Basically your entire argument is "if you write up REALLY STUPID versions of a status effect that would be bad!"

People could just... not write up terrible versions of the status effect.

[zugschef]

and regeneration is a pretty high level spell, so if a monster cuts or bites off your leg in the early levels you're pretty fucked.

So... then monsters that have the ability to bite your leg off only appear at the appropriate levels?

do you realize that you've just moved the goal posts? if a system allows attacking certain hit locations then it does that. wheter you are level 1, level 5 or level 13 doesn't fuckin matter. if you want to be able to cause status effects with attacks, then you can do that without hit locations:
Monster X (CR 13) has the ability Tear Arm (Ex), for instance. but that's the point: this is again the territory, frank so fittingly described as "stupid kludge rule". you have to add something like this for every fucking monster, if you want it to have an ability like that, and then the pcs and non-monst npcs are still left, so you probably have to create feats.

[PhoneLobster]

do you realize that you've just moved the goal posts?

I very specifically discussed tying hit location type status effects to special attacks. In my first post on the topic on this thread no less. So... who's moving what goal posts?

Perhaps you should pay more attention.

But regardless, NO, a system that allows limb damage status effects or even hit locations does NOT need to allow that automatically for everyone and from level 1.

And even if it did... it then doesnt have to have a giant gulf until making mitigating effects available.

That's insanity that's baby+bathwater=1 entity sort of stuff right there.

No really EVERY post you have on this is "what if I deliberately wrote it REALLY badly!?"

And, also no, it's not a fucking kludge unless you write it deliberately stupidly the way you keep trying to, it can just be a planned and system wide common standardized status effect dealt by many different attacks using the same standardized mechanics.

[zugschef]

No really EVERY post you have on this is "what if I deliberately wrote it REALLY badly!?"

if you include hit locations and called hits similar to gurps or dark heresy, this is what happens with d20: people will start losing limbs from level 1.

[PhoneLobster]

No really EVERY post you have on this is "what if I deliberately wrote it REALLY badly!?"

if you include hit locations and called hits similar to gurps or dark heresy, this is what happens with d20: people will start losing limbs from level 1.

[hogarth]

I would argue that called hits are bad in systems with no hit locations.

Systems with hit locations can actually support it without issue.

Do you have an example of a game with hit locations that you think does it well? All the ones I've seen have pretty much sucked ass, although we got some entertainment playing Aftermath and hoping to shoot people in the wang and buying titanium codpieces to avoid the same fate.

if you include hit locations and called hits similar to gurps or dark heresy, this is what happens with d20: people will start losing limbs from level 1.

On the other hand, you have Pathfinder's optional called shots system where it's impossible to cripple a limb unless you can do 50 points of damage in one blow.

[squirrelloid]

I would argue that called hits are bad in systems with no hit locations.

Systems with hit locations can actually support it without issue.

Do you have an example of a game with hit locations that you think does it well? All the ones I've seen have pretty much sucked ass, although we got some entertainment playing Aftermath and hoping to shoot people in the wang and buying titanium codpieces to avoid the same fate.

if you include hit locations and called hits similar to gurps or dark heresy, this is what happens with d20: people will start losing limbs from level 1.

On the other hand, you have Pathfinder's optional called shots system where it's impossible to cripple a limb unless you can do 50 points of damage in one blow.

That... almost follows from D+D rules. (Most limb-crippling attacks are potentially lethal, and 50hp attacks provoke death from massive damage saves). I mean, it's a terrible mechanic because most characters either deal 50+ damage with a hit routinely or rarely ever will, but it almost makes sense given other rules.

For a D+D type system, I think not only a called shot but a damage threshold would be necessary for any limb disablement. These threshholds should probably be given as %s of total hp but with minimum values (to stop level 1 stupidity).

So cutting a leg off would require a called shot to the leg (at whatever appropriate penalty) that inflicts at least X% of the creatures total hp (or Y damage, whichever is greater) in one blow. Of course, you'd want monster stat blocks to give the actual damage totals needed for each location's disabling condition.

Of course, cutting someone's leg off also severs an artery, so this is basically a death attack. Do you even get a fortitude save if your body is desanguinating in about a minute?

[hogarth]

For a D+D type system, I think not only a called shot but a damage threshold would be necessary for any limb disablement. These threshholds should probably be given as %s of total hp but with minimum values (to stop level 1 stupidity).

That's how Pathfinder's system works: The maximum level of disability for any location requires an attack that causes 50% of a creature's hp, minimum 50 hp. The second-best level of disability is if you get a critical hit. There's a minor level of disability if you score a regular hit.

Overall, it's a pretty useless system (making a single called shot is a full round action and many of the effects are puny or have a save to negate), but I can't really blame them for erring on the side of caution.

[RobbyPants]

So if you have a system where you expect a character to fall down in say, 3 turns of normal attacks, your deadly death to the head attack needs to be of appropriately similar value, so, as a brief sketchy example...

Targets have 3 HP, normal attacks hit about 100% of the time and deal 1 HP, called shot Head hits about 30% of the time and deals death, or 3 HP in one go, we don't care exactly which.

An imperfect and hasty example but if you don't get the general idea from that you never will. Nor will you get ANY idea about designing diverse combat actions in general.

Mathematically that works out, but do note that the game assumes the players will be in many combats against many monsters over their careers, but any individual monster is in one combat (or maybe a few). So, while over the long haul, this all averages out to the same end result, including 33% triple damage effects hurts the players a lot more than the monsters.

[zugschef]

So, while over the long haul, this all averages out to the same end result, including 33% triple damage effects hurts the players a lot more than the monsters.

hey, don't forget that pcs in pl's campaigns don't die.

[mlangsdorf]

if you include hit locations and called hits similar to gurps or dark heresy, this is what happens with d20: people will start losing limbs from level 1.

It's weird that low power characters in GURPS don't lose their limbs that much, then. What's so special about D&D?

I mean, if you had to do 100% of your target's HP in a single blow to guarantee that you cut off their arm (which is how the rule works in GURPS), I wouldn't expect many people to definitely lose their limbs. If you have to do 50% of their HP to make a limb unusuable in the short term by curable through rest in the long term (by breaking a bone or slashing a major muscle group), then I still don't think many people would bother unless the armor model made it worth while.

People sometimes get their arms crippled in GURPS because GURPS has integrated hit locations and damage resistance by location, and sometimes you either need to take someone alive or need to fight someone who has great torso armor but weak armor on the limbs. At which point breaking their armor is totally valid. But a lot of the time, it's harder to hit and damage a limb than it is to just wallop the guy in the chest, so people just kill each other.

I wouldn't want to try to port over the GURPS system to D&D, but something like it could be done and done in a way that discouraged casual limb attacks.

[kzt]

People didn't usually lose limbs in RQ. It happened mostly when you had significant attack magic on weapons, and by that point pretty much someone in the group would have a heal 6.

I did kill DRT another PC when I attempted to wing him with my bow. I think it was HERO. Hit throat, no armor, rolled max damage, doubled for location. Oops. Only success I got like that for the entire multi-year campaign.

[zugschef]

It's weird that low power characters in GURPS don't lose their limbs that much, then. What's so special about D&D?

natural 20ies for dnd. bell curve for gurps.

[mlangsdorf]

RAW, 2% of all attacks in GURPS are critical hits that automatically hit and may have additional effects such as maximum damage or avoiding armor. Highly skilled characters get critical hits up to 10% of the time.

In D&D, 5% of all attacks are natural 20s that automatically hit and (depending on edition) have other effects such as maximum damage or damage multipliers. Some characters in D&D3.x could get bonus damage on 10%-40% of their attacks.

I'm not really sure what the nature of critical hits in the two sets of systems has to do with whether adding a thoughtfully designed set of rules for hit locations to D&D would cause characters to "start losing their limbs from level 1." Care to explain in more detail?

[zugschef]

2 * 2,5 = 5

but anyway, i've probably more written out of personal experience than actual statistical fact. in my personal gaming experience a melee char is highly likely to lose body parts in gurps and dark heresy.

other than that, in gurps you have a lot of other different mechanics. first there are two ways of defending yourself with parry and dodge and then armor actually provides damage reduction. if you hit with a dagger in dnd you will inflict at least 1 point of damage to a human in full plate. in gurps that dude is pretty much invulnerable to an average dude with a dagger. that's all what i meant. i think it's a lot of work to include something like that in d20.

and the problem i see is, that such a system would likely fall into the "in the early levels it's too strong and in the later levels no one cares" category. not necessarily, but it's just something i think is an obstacle if you want to design and add such a system to dnd/d20.

[tussock]

So, basically, "shooting it in the legs" is a special effect that means when it runs out of "hit points" type things it falls over and can't move. To make some parts more vulnerable and lesser effects more common, you set lesser damage tallies for outcomes like "weapon destroyed" or "leg damaged, can't run". Various penalties can be given for aiming at extremities, and the default aim point is at the centre of mass.

"Pilot dead" should probably be easier than "mech destroyed", but not by much. Doing silly things like putting Ammo in weakly protected places just lowers the HP defence, makes everything easier to explode.

Like 4e, you could have "bloodied" condition at half hit points where minor effects kick in with each targeted blow, and a "dead" condition at zero where the major ones do (including death for head and torso shots). As long as your attacks are reasonably scaled, no more than about 8 to kill, that would be enough. You could also say smaller attacks need to do at least 10% of max HP to have any special effect at all.

[Blasted]

I liked the system in I think it was Mechwarrior 2ed. It's been a long time, tho.
I can't really remember the version #.
Anyway, the idea is that you have hitpoints and a hit from a weapon will take away a certain # of hitpoints. Then you have thresholds on each body part. If the damage from the hit reaches the threshold, something bad happens. Double it and something really bad happens.
This is all viewed through the fog of nostalgia, so maybe someone who actually remembers the system could chime in.