What is the biggest debacle of RPG history?

[PhoneLobster]

that doesn't make Alien a mediocre film.

Yes it does by comparison. The Thing was a brilliant movie that stands up to this day as a brilliant movie. Alien was mediocre main streamed crap that has aged badly.

Whether a film or book is bad or trivializing rape is not simply a "Is rape mentioned?" Y/N toggle.

And whether or not a film is trivializing rape has nothing the fuck to do with how much of a "broad stamp of cultural approval" it gets. The Alien/The Thing example is a perfect example of the fact that SOME things get "broad stamp of cultural approval" (ie success) and others don't for reasons SO bad they might as well be NO REASON AT ALL.

That's the whole point. "I Like it" and "People Like It" are both not actual arguments that a thing does NOT contain unpleasant or even just flat out stupid material.

Which coincidentally rolls us back around to the lame arguments people are making for why Eberron is so totally cool and everyone should stop regarding it for the pile or steaming shit that it is.

[vagrant]

It's got fantasy cyborgs man! What's not to love?

[Whipstitch]

I gotta be honest, I'm not even sure who you're shouting at anymore.

[Pulsewidth]

It's not until the sequels and crossovers that the form of the new xenomorph somehow resembles the form of the host. You could argue that's a type of sexual reproduction, even if it uses magical space biology instead of DNA. But it doesn't happen in the original, so if the original Alien is about rape then people who get parasitised by botfly larvae are rape victims.

[PhoneLobster]

I gotta be honest, I'm not even sure who you're shouting at anymore.

Stand back, this internet badass here is offended by EMPHASIS in text!

[angelfromanotherpin]

Dan O'Bannon, Screenwriter of Alien, about Alien[/url]]"This movie is about alien interspecies rape."

[Pulsewidth]

Dan O'Bannon is wrong, because rape is by definition impossible without sex. Despite the sexual imagery used in the movie there are no actual sexual actions. At worst it can be considered a metaphor for sex, but that's a secondary meaning compared to the overt parasitism theme.

[Whipstitch]

Pulsewidth, the sperg is strong with you.



Phonelobster, a poster seemed surprised and aghast by people thinking Eberron is way gross and so I pointed out reasons why Alien--which he referenced--is received differently from the throw away line about breed leeches in Eberron. That's not even an appeal to popularity, that's fucking talking about popularity.

[PhoneLobster]

That's not even an appeal to popularity, that's fucking talking about popularity.

You specifically and directly argued that there are reasons it gained popularity and "the broad stamp of popular approcal"

Your SECOND POINT ON A THREE POINT LIST was "It's sheer competence is a buffer against criticism!". No really. You flat out said "I like it so it's immune to criticism" before you even ran out of points on a short list of points. And considering your first point was "what is art/magnets how do they fucking work?" basically after trimming the fat we have a 2 point list and the FIRST one is "I like it so its immune to to criticism".

And considering your last point is a rambling mess that amounts to "well I for one don't find it very sexual at all, and if I did I would condemn the appropriate villains!"... you basically have a 1 point list and the only point really IS a very very direct appeal to popularity.

Not to mention that your 2nd point is actually flat out offensive when you claim it is so massively superior to it's peers when those peers include The Thing. But that's really a different argument. And even if the Alien is somehow qualitatively better art than the Space Herpes in Ice Pirates that's not really an argument for, well, anything...

[Whipstitch]

I actually do believe that in many cases you can polish a turd enough that some people will claim it is pretty. I don't think Alien is a turd, but if it did happen to be a turd, like, say, 300, I do think it would have had an audience anyway.

[OgreBattle]

I actually do believe that in many cases you can polish a turd enough that some people will claim it is pretty.

Like this polished dinosaur turd.



As for Eberron, I thought of it as "the setting based around 00's dungeonpunk aesthetics." Kinda like how Dark Sun is a vessel for Brom's sweaty swole dudes with horny gear.

[infected slut princess]

Alien and The Thing are both awesome movies about aliens. I think the former is stronger overall.

Are there any other scary alien movies as good as those? I don't think so.

[PhoneLobster]

Alien and The Thing are both awesome movies about aliens. I think the former is stronger overall.

One of them is a exceedingly well realized story about the implications of a very different and dangerous form of intelligent life that may or may not be malevolent and may or may not need to get you alone to infect you, that could mimic anything it took over perfectly, and which you might not even know had taken you over, and which may or may not have been either defeated or fought to draw or lost against in a story of paranoia and desperation. It is one of the few monster movies that managed to show the monster AND still retain a strong enough sense of ambiguity for some real chilling and paranoid moments.

The other is a story about some kids a space ship crew that go out into A cabin in the woods a planet in space and disturb a freaky monster lair disturb a freaky monster lair and it hunts them down and eats them one by one and then the "good girl" protagonist barely escapes at the end. Basically its a proto-slasher horror movie that only ever got anywhere because it was carried by the awesomeness of a tiny amount of Geiger's artistic influence on the monster design and the sheer hilarity of a scene involving a fairly obviously plastic little puppet bursting out of a chest.

[Whatever]

Dan O'Bannon is wrong, because rape is by definition impossible without sex.

Really? Let's check.

Definition of RAPE

: an Old World herb (Brassica napus) of the mustard family grown as a forage crop and for its seeds which yield rapeseed oil and are a bird food — compare canola

Nope, nothing in there about sex.

[wotmaniac]

I wouldn't say it's that bad. It has a bizarre bit or two, but otherwise has seemed fairly solid to me.

You are wrong.

-Username17

I think you try to hard to find things to rail against. Two of the sample heroes in the first chapter don't have anything to do with gods or the outer planes. You seemed to ignore that bit. You seemed to complain about a good Mind Flayer for no discernable reason. And you complained about redeeming evil creatures, when this makes a lot of sense in D&D -- fewer evil souls going to the Lower Planes. Also the bit on evil creatures going to an afterlife of torture really isn't specific on whether they are tortured or do the torturing (and both can happen to evil creatures that die).

You also seem to confuse the fact that the Upper Planes in D&D are indeed embodiments of Pure Goodness. That's just how the cosmology works. It's not crazy at all to suggest that a good character would be more in synch with elements of the Upper Planes, and this does not in any way suggest they are religious.

While it does use a lot of terms traditionally associated with Christianity, these terms can also be used in a more secular fashion. So overall I think you go out of your way to complain about the book.

Regarding the Doctrine of the Double Effect bit, it IS the case the a Paladin loses their status if they knowingly commit an evil act. That's how the D&D world works. This is just applying it to exalted characters in general really. The other way they could have gone, I suppose, was to be inconsistent with their own source material.

I'm not saying it is perfect. Far from it. Certainly it has a lot of problems with the mechanics it provides. The bits on ethics, however, are not nearly as bad as you make them out to be. It is plagued a bit by wording that's not as clear as it could be.

I've often been critical of Frank for being overly-critical/making up reasons to criticize stuff ..... but in this case, he's spot on. That whole book really was nothing more than the inverse of BoVD; and shit simply just doesn't work like that.

[zugschef]

Who the fuck is "Geiger"?

As for the movie, horror in outer space was something new at the time and the movie is full of sexual innuendos, just look at the alien ship. Also, the alien's "birth" is a perversion of normal birth; it is no coincidence that the first victim is male (womb-envy is the key-word) and that his name is Kane which is very similar to the biblical Kain. From a more technical standpoint the entire camera work is excellent, as of course, are the visual effects and the entire art direction and set decoration. The cutter did an outstanding job, too, as the plot's pacing, going from almost awfully slow to almost fast by modern standards, is another factor which makes Alien unique. Last but not least the fact that the protagonist is female, actually a heroine, makes the film stand out if you consider when it was made. Seriously, if you can't see why Alien is an exceptionally well-made movie you are not to be taken seriously in any discussion involving film art (and this has got absolutely nothing to do with liking or disliking the movie).

That said, I personally love The Thing (and a lot of Carpenter's work), too. Still, I think that these two movies actually compare very badly, anyway.

[Username17]

The best The Thing is Nyby's The Thing From Another World. Watch it uncolorized, because the colorization process makes the monster a lot more visible and less scary. Steeped in Cold War jargon as it is, it doesn't try to score points with cheap grossouts, and the deliberate pacing and honest discussion of moral dilemma makes for a movie that is continually engrossing and disturbing.

-Username17

[Prak]

Dan O'Bannon is wrong, because rape is by definition impossible without sex. Despite the sexual imagery used in the movie there are no actual sexual actions. At worst it can be considered a metaphor for sex, but that's a secondary meaning compared to the overt parasitism theme.

I'm just reminded of Lewis Black's summation of Clinton's defence against the accusation of sexual misconduct with Lewinsky...

If you bent someone over, or forced them to their knees, and forced a metal pipe into a lower or their mouth, I'm pretty sure they would accuse you of raping them, in fact there's a term for that--"rape with a foreign object"--penetration with sexual organs or of sexual organs is not strictly required for rape.

[zugschef]

Steeped in Cold War jargon as it is, it doesn't try to score points with cheap grossouts, [...]

Nitpick: Carpenter's version's visual effects are definitely not cheap but actually great and still work even by nowadays' standards. I'll take Carpenter's The Thing's sfx over most modern cgi any day of the week.

[MGuy]

I'd like to point out that breeding leeches are considerably tamer than anything that happens in the ALIEN movies. They seriously just bite you, and if the victim is already preggers, the offspring will come with another parasite that it forms a symbiotic relationship with.

That's bad, no doubt, but is way more tame than having something jump on your face, shove a tube down your throat, and force you to have an alien baby that bursts from your chest. It is also far more tame than straight up tentacle rape as Voss accused it of being. I mean it can seriously bite you on your arm to make it happen.

Whip is correct in that I used the reference because Aliens is generally taken in without complaint so instead I'll make a better comparison. Breeding Leeches are hardly any worse than Vampires/Lycans/Ghouls or any other magically induced 'thing' you can catch that forcefully changes a person into something else, usually to horrifying effect. The existence of Half Bloods is about as tame as the existence of Half Dragons/Half Fiends/Half Orcs/Tieflings/etc.

I like Eberron, despite its problems, the same way I like 3rd edition despite its problems. If someone is going to make it out that the setting is filled with rape/tentacle rape/demon tentacle rape and then are unable to produce any material that even suggests it I'm going to call them out on their bullshit.

[Pulsewidth]

If you bent someone over, or forced them to their knees, and forced a metal pipe into a lower or their mouth, I'm pretty sure they would accuse you of raping them, in fact there's a term for that--"rape with a foreign object"--penetration with sexual organs or of sexual organs is not strictly required for rape.

Both the FBI and the WHO disagree with you, but people like to demonstrate how much they hate rape without thinking too hard, so it's entirely plausible that some jurisdictions have expanded the definition to the point where your example could be legally considered rape. This is counterproductive, because the more you expand the definition the less seriously people will treat it. If you expand the definition so far that it doesn't even need to involve anything sexual then you've turned it into a joke. You're actively harming society because people will assume genuine rape victims (by the common sense definition) are only rape victims under the new, diluted definition.

If your example is rape then not only the botfly hosts, but also the prisoners being force fed in Guatanamo Bay are being raped.

[Username17]

"Forced Oral Genital Contact" is in fact in the list of things that are rape. Shoving your reproductive tentacle down someone's throat is rape. Can we please stop talking about this? The only thing this discussion is revealing is that Pulsewidth is a terrible person.

-Username17

[Pulsewidth]

"Forced Oral Genital Contact" is in fact in the list of things that are rape. Shoving your reproductive tentacle down someone's throat is rape.

Shoving *sexually* reproductive tentacles down a throat could be considered rape, but in the first Alien movie there is zero reason to believe that any sexual reproduction is going on. The magical space biology of later movies is highly implausible, so you can't reasonably assume it's happening with zero evidence.

Definitions:

Physically forced or otherwise coerced penetration – even if slight – of the vulva or anus, using a penis, other body parts or an object

The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim

Those are reasonable common sense definitions. The xenomorph as depicted in the first movie does not reproduce sexually, therefore it does not have any sex organ, and it penetrates the mouth only, so it does not rape under either definition.

If you define what it's doing as rape then you also define other things (forced feeding, forced drug administration even in case of medical emergency, parasitism) as rape which dilutes the meaning in a way harmful to actual rape victims.

[Username17]

Definitions:

The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim

You're an idiot.

The Xenomorph's ovapositor is a sex organ. End of discussion.

-Username17

[Pulsewidth]

The Xenomorph's ovapositor is a sex organ. End of discussion.

Show me any evidence from the first movie that Xenomorphs reproduce sexually. It's an asexual parasite.