How DnD Skill System is Bad

[spongeknight]

Hell, just giving people more feats and making each feat a spell you could cast regardless of class would make the entire 3e skill system irrelevant and speed the game immeasurably. For example, people would never use Diplomacy skills once they had an at-will Suggestion and Fly, Climb, and Jump checks are pointless once you cast Fly.

That... is the first good argument I've seen. But the problem is that starting characters still need ways to interact with the world before they get their crazy feat-spells, because they won't get them all at level 1. I don't think anyone is arguing that skills should still be the go-to resource at high levels when easy access to spells makes them all moot, but before that point it really matters whether your party can succeed their Sense Motive check or not.

[Kaelik]

1) Swim speeds are for creatures with gills or those who live in the water exclusively, like fucking dolphins. An adventurer who only has basic human knowledge about swimming and is in armor way too heavy for him and carrying a huge-ass sword is not functioning with the same assumptions in the water that a fucking aquatic creature is.

Oh yeah, those gilled creatures that live exclusively in water, like:

Black Dragons, Polar Bears, Hydras, Storm Giants, Rats, Green Hags, Nymphs, Shambling Mounds, Shocker Lizards, Monitor Lizards, Purple Worms, and Gibbering Mouthers. All those gilled creatures that live exclusively in water with swim speeds.

2) That's just stupid. Being a trained adventurer doesn't make you fucking Aquaman, it means you're competant at a wide variety of things. Not being able to drown ever without someone holding your head under is a fucking superpower for a normal human

So is not dying when stabbed with a dagger ever. Bu they have that super power because the abstraction of the system. Likewise, competent adventurers should be able to stay afloat for a few rounds while they get to something, but because the rules for tiring out are stupid as shit, they will be able to sit there for longer.

And how in the hell is "wearing a hundred pounds of steel bearing me down" and "a creature bearing me down" different enough to have one automatically keep you alive and the other apparently automatically kill you?

Because a 50lb suit of armor is something that you can support yourself in, and when an opponent rolls higher than you on a strength check to pull you down then by definition you cannot support that.

I'm sorry, wasn't this thread about how the D&D skill system was bad and people wanted to change/eradicate it? I must be in the wrong fucking thread or something, because that's what I read on the title when I came in here. If you want to keep all the other skills and just make movement modes for three of them, why the hell are you here? Just to argue that?

I'm sorry, what the fuck. When someone posts about how X is flawed, it does not mean that they think any concept of X should be deleted from the universe. There is a place for talking about the flaws of 3e skill system, this is it. Some of the flaws of the 3e skill system can have to do with how it lumps things that shouldn't be rolls in with things that should. Some of the problems can be that they need to diversify the resource management system so that jumping doesn't make you stupider.

No one is required to take the position that the only thing to do is invent 14 subsystems and never roll a die again. We can want to make changes which we think make the game better without making a bunch of arbitrary changes that you wish we were arguing for so that you could be right.

[Roog]

This stood out to me:

Every time you see a value of 10+ other factors, the designers have explained that the base value could be replaced by a die roll. Your save DCs, for instance, could be variable - sometimes 1+mods, sometimes 20+mods, but in order to ensure the game goes faster, they've taken the approximate average value. You can do the same thing for AC (1d20+mods instead of 10+mods).

What basis do you have for that?

[fectin]

I'm pretty sure Unearthed Arcana covered that, at least.

[Username17]

This stood out to me:

Every time you see a value of 10+ other factors, the designers have explained that the base value could be replaced by a die roll. Your save DCs, for instance, could be variable - sometimes 1+mods, sometimes 20+mods, but in order to ensure the game goes faster, they've taken the approximate average value. You can do the same thing for AC (1d20+mods instead of 10+mods).

What basis do you have for that?

As fectin mentioned, it's in Unearthed Arcana. They lay out different options like rolling Attack and AC or shifting all the die rolling to one side of the DM's screen or the other by making attacks fixed and defenses rolled or vice versa when the attack would otherwise be rolled on the "wrong" side of the screen.

Any fixed DC could be converted to a rolled attack, any fixed defense could be converted to a rolled save. The conventions of what we use fixed values for and what we use rolled values for are wholly arbitrary. Everything we roll instead of using a fixed value slows the game down. Everything we use a fixed value for instead of rolling makes the game more deterministic. If the game becomes too deterministic, it becomes frustrating. If the game moves forward too slowly, it becomes frustrating.

And worst of all: the happy middle ground isn't the same between different people. And indeed, isn't the same for one specific person on two randomly sampled nights. That's why we have multiple different games.

-Username17

[PhoneLobster]

This stood out to me:

You highlighted the wrong bit...

Every time you see a value of 10+ other factors, the designers have explained that the base value could be replaced by a die roll. Your save DCs, for instance, could be variable - sometimes 1+mods, sometimes 20+mods, but in order to ensure the game goes faster, they've taken the approximate average value. You can do the same thing for AC (1d20+mods instead of 10+mods).

Yeah, that's a big fat bunch of bullshit. Sure you CAN substitute those 10s with 1d20s. Just like you could substitute them with 5d6 drop the highest and lowest, then multiply them by 1.25. Or with a ringing up Ringo Star and asking him to think of a number between -3 and Fat Controller.

But you would still be both adding needless complexity, slowing the game, and dramatically changing the way it actually functions. Rolling 1d20 instead of having that base 10 on your AC would for instance make for randomly frustrating situations interspersed with improbably unfair vulnerability and significant increases in death rates among already death prone d20 Melee fighters.

The idea that you could, or worse SHOULD do those things is dumb. The idea that some designer somewhere suggested "yeah sure arcana it whatever..." isn't surprising, but it doesn't make it right.

[wotmaniac]

Just a couple of things for Kaelik and spongeknight:

2) That's just stupid. Being a trained adventurer doesn't make you fucking Aquaman, it means you're competant at a wide variety of things. Not being able to drown ever without someone holding your head under is a fucking superpower for a normal human

So is not dying when stabbed with a dagger ever. Bu they have that super power because the abstraction of the system.

The base combat engine is significantly more abstracted than the skill system .... so there is that.

And how in the hell is "wearing a hundred pounds of steel bearing me down" and "a creature bearing me down" different enough to have one automatically keep you alive and the other apparently automatically kill you?

Because a 50lb suit of armor is something that you can support yourself in, and when an opponent rolls higher than you on a strength check to pull you down then by definition you cannot support that.

To be fair ... while under water, if you're wearing a suit of plate armor, you might as well be wrestling a python.


Don't get me wrong, Kaelik -- I'm largely supportive of your position here; ∴ I'd hate to see you get lost in the weeds.[/u]

[Ghremdal]

The reason why you don't roll for movement but roll for swim or jump is to cut away dice rolling and speed up the game.

Ground based movement is something that happens every round of combat, swimming and jumping does not. So when the situation comes up, in combat, roll for it. Makes things more exciting and it rewards people who invested in said skills.

Also its a reason creatures that dwell a substantial amount of time under water have a swim speed...to speed up their interaction in combat.

There is a goldilocks spot on any mechanic...too complicated slows down the game, too abstract lessens the experience.

[Kuri Näkk]

Every time you see a value of 10+ other factors, the designers have explained that the base value could be replaced by a die roll. Your save DCs, for instance, could be variable - sometimes 1+mods, sometimes 20+mods, but in order to ensure the game goes faster, they've taken the approximate average value. You can do the same thing for AC (1d20+mods instead of 10+mods).

Yeah, that's a big fat bunch of bullshit. Sure you CAN substitute those 10s with 1d20s. /../ But you would still be both adding needless complexity, slowing the game, and dramatically changing the way it actually functions. Rolling 1d20 instead of having that base 10 on your AC would for instance make for randomly frustrating situations interspersed with improbably unfair vulnerability and significant increases in death rates among already death prone d20 Melee fighters. The idea that you could, or worse SHOULD do those things is dumb. The idea that some designer somewhere suggested "yeah sure arcana it whatever..." isn't surprising, but it doesn't make it right.

It is not 'some designer' and not 'arcana whatever' - are you one of those DMs who never read the actual DMG?

Variant: Defense rolls. More randomness can sometimes eliminate the foregone conclusion /../ Every time a character is attacked, rather than just using his never-changing static AC, he makes a d20 roll and adds it to all his AC modifiers. Every attack becomes an opposed roll /../ This variant rule really comes in handy in high-levels, where high-level fighters always hit with their primary attacks, and other characters rarely do. Unfortunately, it can slow down play, almost doubling the number of rolls in any given combat. A compromise might be to have each defender make a defense roll once in a round, using that same total for all attacks made against him that round.

[Kaelik]

The reason why you don't roll for movement but roll for swim or jump is to cut away dice rolling and speed up the game.

And unsurprisingly, that is the exact reason we are advocating removing rolls from jump and swim, because rolling checks for that extremely minor bullshit wastes time and doesn't bring anything worthwhile.

[Ghremdal]

And unsurprisingly, that is the exact reason we are advocating removing rolls from jump and swim, because rolling checks for that extremely minor bullshit wastes time and doesn't bring anything worthwhile.

I think it adds to the game, that a character who invested in a skill gets rewarded by making a difficult jump when he needs to. I would make skills easier to invest into, and a basic level of proficiency available to all, but leave the option for trained characters to push the boundaries if they want to.

I am curious which skills would you leave to a dice based resolution system? And which would you leave to a value based resolution system?

[Kaelik]

And unsurprisingly, that is the exact reason we are advocating removing rolls from jump and swim, because rolling checks for that extremely minor bullshit wastes time and doesn't bring anything worthwhile.

I think it adds to the game, that a character who invested in a skill gets rewarded by making a difficult jump when he needs to. I would make skills easier to invest into, and a basic level of proficiency available to all, but leave the option for trained characters to push the boundaries if they want to.

I am curious which skills would you leave to a dice based resolution system? And which would you leave to a value based resolution system?

But nothing about the first paragraph requires dice rolling. You can have a player who invested alternative movement points into Jump be able to jump without rolling and they still gain the ability to be rewarded for investing resources and training themselves to push boundaries.

As to your questions, I have no idea what you mean by value based, is that somehow the opposite of rolling? That isn't how I would describe the opposite of rolling since rolling needs values to roll against.

Not to say that the only skills that should exist already exist in 3e, because I'm sure there are other things that should exist, but just looking at the 3.5 list I would say:

1) Things that should be things everyone should do, and not fucking graduated skills with rolls: Appraise, Gather Information, Heal, Perform, Profession, Use Rope.

2) Things that should be class features, or racial features, or feats, and not fucking graduated skills with rolls: Balance, Decipher Script, Forgery, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand.

3) Movement modes, which would have some other method of increasing them that might be a pool of points be level, or might be feats/class features. Jump, Climb, Swim, Fly.

4) "Knowledge Skills" that you get points that can only be spent in this category, This would be all Knowledges, all Crafts, Speak Language, and maybe Spellcraft, these could be rolls or just abilities, probably better as just abilities honestly, but that would involve reinventing the entire knowledge system.

5) Exploration skills: Disable Device (and everyone would have trapfinding up to their DD skill, so if you can disable it you can find it, and if you can't, then you can't basically, DD would be essential to finding traps, where Search is something everyone has to find doors and gold and shit), Hide/MS, Spot/Listen, Survival.

6) Social Skills (hopefully made less shit in some way, but probably won't happen): Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate.

7) Things that should be incorporated into the combat system as rolls that have to do with your level and nothing to do with any skill system: Tumble, Concentration.

8) Things that shouldn't exist: UMD.

[PhoneLobster]

It is not 'some designer' and not 'arcana whatever'

So... if that wasn't written by some designer who the hell DID write it? And wasn't it said "somewhere" like I described? And if it wasn't an optional bullshit side bar never really considered or consistent with the rest of the rule set (ie "sure, why not, arcana it"). Then WTF point did you think you were making?

The entire fucking point of my post was "Who cares is some designer said it, it does a whole bunch of stupid things to the way the game works." You skipped that entirely and STILL fell flat on your face trying to score points on an angle you failed the bullshit random reading comprehension skill check on.

[OgreBattle]

So, how about the skill system in After Sundown? It seems like it'd be solid for adaption to D&D.

The chase rule mechanics, I could see social or exploratory challenges use something similar.

[Username17]

Things that should be class features, or racial features, or feats, and not fucking graduated skills with rolls: Balance, Decipher Script, Forgery, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand.

Huh?

How exactly do you intend to do opposed tests without a die roll? I use a knockdown attack, how does that interact with someone with Balance or Ride if there isn't a die roll? I have an observant ability of some kind, how does that interact with Forgery or Sleight of Hand if there isn't a die roll? I have an ability that tangles people in webs, how does that interact with Escape Artist if there isn't a roll of some kind?

So, how about the skill system in After Sundown? It seems like it'd be solid for adaption to D&D.

Some parts of it would be a great addition. The whole d20 system basically chokes when it hits a task that takes an amount of time - it's really only capable of assigning DCs and rolling success or failure. Even the variable amount of time it takes to disable a trap is a unique rule. Having a timeframe rule would make skills like Craft and Escape Artist much easier to handle in a way that wasn't stupid or deterministic.

-Username17

[Kuri Näkk]

It is not 'some designer' and not 'arcana whatever'

So... if that wasn't written by some designer who the hell DID write it? And wasn't it said "somewhere" like I described? And if it wasn't an optional bullshit side bar never really considered or consistent with the rest of the rule set (ie "sure, why not, arcana it"). Then WTF point did you think you were making?

The entire fucking point of my post was "Who cares is some designer said it, it does a whole bunch of stupid things to the way the game works." You skipped that entirely and STILL fell flat on your face trying to score points on an angle you failed the bullshit random reading comprehension skill check on.

What a stellar idiot you are. After demonstrating that you are not familiar with DMG you go on proclaiming that you know better than all the designers of DMG collectively what is "right" for D&D. And what makes you so cocksure? Oh, you noticed that the rule introduces randomness and may slow down the game. Attaboy! We totally had no clue.

Oh, I got it! You decided to post just after Frank on the same issue to make his comment to stand out more? Kudos, you made it very clear what differentiates intelligent remarks from ramblings of an idiot.

Do not bother to reply rant. I put you on my ignore list.

[Cyberzombie]

How exactly do you intend to do opposed tests without a die roll? I use a knockdown attack, how does that interact with someone with Balance or Ride if there isn't a die roll? I have an observant ability of some kind, how does that interact with Forgery or Sleight of Hand if there isn't a die roll? I have an ability that tangles people in webs, how does that interact with Escape Artist if there isn't a roll of some kind?

You're better off just using reflex saves. It's pretty easy to set a DC of 10 + 1/2 level + relevant stat mod for a trip or unhorsing attempt. Skill checks versus anything that wasn't a skill generally resulted in bad math. That's something I'd prefer to avoid.

I'd think we could have maneuver resistance and immunity. Obviously what resistance meant would need to be codified, but a +5 seems like a pretty decent starting point. Then you could give 4 legged monsters trip resistance, and oozes trip immunity. Having a certain level of proficiency in acrobatics would also give a PC resistance, and being a master might make him immune to trips.

[Username17]

You're better off just using reflex saves. It's pretty easy to set a DC of 10 + 1/2 level + relevant stat mod for a trip or unhorsing attempt.

So your answer to the question of how being especially good at staying in the saddle should affect attempts to unhorse you is... that it shouldn't. That's very post modernist, even surrealist of you.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

So I typed up a reply that apparently I never posted.

How exactly do you intend to do opposed tests without a die roll? I use a knockdown attack, how does that interact with someone with Balance or Ride if there isn't a die roll?

Reflex saves, the level appropriate things. Maybe you could even give Paladins a +4 on reflex saves to stay horsed or something if you wanted.

I have an observant ability of some kind, how does that interact with Forgery or Sleight of Hand if there isn't a die roll?

Because your observant ability would be spot/perception/search as appropriate, and you would roll it against the static DC that is created by people who can forge stuff. I mean, does anyone fucking roll Forgery instead of taking ten right now under the rules?

I have an ability that tangles people in webs, how does that interact with Escape Artist if there isn't a roll of some kind?

By just escaping from webs if you can escape from webs, you know just like being immune to death effects makes you immune to death effects. Or having FoM makes you immune to webs.

[Cyberzombie]

So your answer to the question of how being especially good at staying in the saddle should affect attempts to unhorse you is... that it shouldn't. That's very post modernist, even surrealist of you.

Well no, I mentioned that you can get resistance or immunity to certain maneuvers like tripping or unhorsing via your skills. So you'd get a +5 or even straight up immunity to a maneuver depending on your training.

[PhoneLobster]

... you go on proclaiming that you know better than all the designers of DMG collectively what is "right" for D&D. And what makes you so cocksure?

Math. It's not just about average results. If it were the average 10.5 from 1d20 substituting for a 10 is no big deal. But its about the full range of results. The 1s and 2s and 19s and 20s matter, and they break the fucking game. In a thread that has already covered the problems with say, a whole bunch of spot checks rolling against a hide check you should already know why that is a problem.

Do not bother to reply rant. I put you on my ignore list.

Wow. Can't handle even one response hey? Really not even trying to look like anything other than a random trolling there are you?

[Username17]

Reflex saves, the level appropriate things. Maybe you could even give Paladins a +4 on reflex saves to stay horsed or something if you wanted.

So you actually do want to give people a roll for their Ride skill, you just want to make it a figured number.

• Your Ride Bonus is equal to your Reflex Save. If you have Combat Riding, your Ride Bonus is increased by 4.

That's not the same as having no Ride Skill Bonus. That's the same as having a Ride Skill Bonus. Really, you're just quibbling about how to make the bonus level appropriate and how often you should be asked to roll it during a game.

The core concept that there should in fact be a bonus for Ride that you have on your character sheet and then roll under some circumstances is something you've completely conceded.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

That's not the same as having no Ride Skill Bonus. That's the same as having a Ride Skill Bonus.

Only in the sense that I would have a skill called "Not falling into pits" "Not being trapped in webs" "Not being buried under debris" "not being subject to death effects" "not being confused" "not being dominated" "Not being turned purple" "not being hit with a glowing magic sword that strips your buffs" and "not being afraid" and "hitting people with a sword."

Which is to say, only if you are an idiot. Saying that I don't want something to be a skill is not the same thing as saying I don't want a roll.

Saying I don't want it to be a skill means some or all of:
1) I don't want the resources that something costs to come at the expense of other skills.
2) I don't think the ability grants anything independent of some other ability you already have, or at least not anything that requires a roll. Riding at all should be automatic, withstanding some specific attack should be done by your ability to withstand specific attacks, modified by your abilities. But saying that literally zero of the current functions of ride should require a roll and that no one should invest points in ride to the exclusion of other skills counts as declaring riding to be a skill.

[Username17]

Which is to say, only if you are an idiot. Saying that I don't want something to be a skill is not the same thing as saying I don't want a roll.

Saying I don't want it to be a skill means some or all of:
1) I don't want the resources that something costs to come at the expense of other skills.
2) I don't think the ability grants anything independent of some other ability you already have, or at least not anything that requires a roll.

We're talking about Ride, which I remind you, your earlier (now completely redacted) opinion was:

Things that should be class features, or racial features, or feats, and not fucking graduated skills with rolls: Balance, Decipher Script, Forgery, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand.

So you've conceded that the Paladin should have an ability that makes him better at riding. Presumably you acknowledge that this ability comes at the cost of some other thing or things you could have had instead. You've further conceded that this ability should have a number attached to it that is rolled when appropriate. What the fuck is left?

At this point you're not even arguing semantics, you're just in denial.

You seem to think that staking out a new territory where skills have less granular ranks, are rolled less often, and whose numeric effects are noticeable bonuses to rolls that are only called for when you're in conflict with someone else's abilities somehow means that you don't have a skill system. But you totally do. That's a perfectly valid way of handling skills, it's not "no skills".

-Username17

[Kaelik]

So you've conceded that the Paladin should have an ability that makes him better at riding. Presumably you acknowledge that this ability comes at the cost of some other thing or things you could have had instead. You've further conceded that this ability should have a number attached to it that is rolled when appropriate. What the fuck is left?

Frank, stop shitting in vaginas, people don't want shit in vaginas.