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tussock
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Post by tussock »

most people actually knew of these mythical monsters before playing D&D when it began
I certainly didn't, I was 14 and didn't give two shits about mythology, but I now do know both the D&D version and the mythology of the critters, and Mearls & Wyatt adding a bunch of new stories that don't quite fit any of them is just ... what?

I get they find the 2nd edition stories a little too "naturalistic" and not sufficiently "fantastic" (in part because religious folk refuse to see wonder in nature, it's a thing), but fantastic in D&D is either a Wizard did it or the Dark Powers of Ravenloft did it or the ancient empire of Aranea or Aboleth or Bullywugs did it, or they're from the Far Realm.

Which isn't exactly fantastic either after the fourth one. We already have Owlbears, no one cares.
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Post by shadzar »

. http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx ... d/20131023 .

When Demons Intrude
By James Wyatt
In this week's Legends & Lore, Mike talked a little bit about the monster story work we're doing right now, presenting the (a?) tale of the medusa's origins. Today, I want to talk about a story element that has cropped up a couple of times in our discussions. Basically, we want to make it very clear in the story of the D&D worlds
worlds? you are shoehorning everything so damn tight into the default, you won't have room for worlds, you are just making one D&D your way, and nobody will be inspired to play it and uninspired from your drivel and drek of a "D&D story" they wont even be able to change it. it would be easier for a DM to kickstarter their own RPG than to play DDN: Mearls and Wyatt, A Love Story.

JUST STOP!
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good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Voss »

Deconstruction time!
Mearls wrote:Summoning Demons

A variety of summoning spells throughout the game's history has allowed spellcasters to bring creatures from the elemental and Outer Planes to the Material Plane. That's a part of D&D history we want to keep, for sure, and we're not particularly excited about having people summon celestial badgers or fiendish piranhas. We think calling a creature from the Outer Planes, particularly, should be a pretty big deal, and it should get you a recognizable celestial or fiend—something you can find in the Monster Manual without adding a template.
I'm... pretty OK with this, to be honest. Celestial Badgers are pretty much a low point of summoning spells. Manes, Lemures or Imps are a fair bit more intriguing for that level of power

Now the meat:
But summoning a vrock or a bone devil is not easy. Well, bringing a devil to you isn't necessarily hard, but getting it to do what you want it to do is trickier—you need to give it something as well.
Ok, makes perfect sense. Do-able, but you have to come to some agreement with even moderate tier summons. Fine.
And summoning a demon requires a messy blood sacrifice, so you're not going to do it unless you're really evil.
For a given value of evil, I suppose. A lot of potential stories are being written out with such a simplistic black/white view. People stumbling blindly or naively into demonic bargains has a lot more narrative weight than red dots summoning bigger red dots in the flickering torchlight
It's easier to bring something like a modron or slaad, a yugoloth, or a gehreleth (demodand), and there are fewer strings attached.
Uh... what? No, seriously, WHAT? First off, this further marginalizes the neutral evil planes (again), and pisses of the backstory that they're the really hard core mercenary faction and consummate bargainers.
Second, and more importantly, if dealing with any of these creatures is easier AND has less of a penalty/price, why the FUCK would anyone bother with demons/devils? Especially since the list of critters is almost entirely inclusive of being that won't shy at getting their hands dirty if you want to bad stuff for power. (Modrons being the exception, unless, of course, you can convince them that the result is more orderly, hierarchal or mechanistic, or that you'll do such a service in return).

No matter how many worlds you have (and there is still space for a lot), only the biggest idiots ever are going to summon Yeenoghu rather than Bob the Second Tier Modron to achieve their goals. Because he isn't likely to pop the heads off the cultists as step 1, and has plenty of power for step 2 and beyond.
Last edited by Voss on Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by tussock »

Voss wrote:
But summoning a vrock or a bone devil is not easy. Well, bringing a devil to you isn't necessarily hard, but getting it to do what you want it to do is trickier—you need to give it something as well.
Ok, makes perfect sense. Do-able, but you have to come to some agreement with even moderate tier summons. Fine.
And summoning a demon requires a messy blood sacrifice, so you're not going to do it unless you're really evil.
For a given value of evil, I suppose. A lot of potential stories are being written out with such a simplistic black/white view. People stumbling blindly or naively into demonic bargains has a lot more narrative weight than red dots summoning bigger red dots in the flickering torchlight
It's D&D, so you can stumble into diabolical bargains, or make deals with the demodands and daemons, but the "demons" just want to watch the world run screaming into darkness. Most of it makes some sense like that. Except for summoning Modrons, because they're ... well, not open to bargaining at all.

Like, there's not all that much wrong with the stories they're writing here, as stories. Gnolls are an ancient summoning side-effect. Fine. But there's no way for PCs to interact with any of it in the game, it's just useless as a game concept. So they're really just masturbating on the Monster Manual, and I kinda wish they'd stop, because I might want to use it later.
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Post by ishy »

Afaik, summoning meant you just summoned a 'copy' of the creature.

But in DNDN, all summoning is now calling magic, you summon an actual creature, that you might need to bargain with etc?
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Post by flare22 »

Look the EU gets pretty crazy long story short there have been 3-12 different galactic sith empires depending on your definition I think 4 is the right number personally.

However their have only been 1-3 galactic republics there was the old republic which existed from its founding all the way until the revenge of the sith movie and then theirs new republic which took over after return of the jedi.

You could argue that their are three republics because the jedi ruled the republic directly bypassing the senate during new sith wars witch lasted for much long then Palpatine ruled as emperor but since the gave the power back when the war was over its debatable.

So for the sake of simplicity anything that happened before revenge of the sith is the old republic era and everything that happens after return of the jedi is new republic.
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Post by codeGlaze »

The confusion was between two points during the Old Republic (basically).
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Post by TheFlatline »

K wrote:
virgil wrote:I always saw the cringing at the Yoda fight as a conflict of character concept and the spinning pogo stick style rather than at his physical size.
That didn't help either.

Yoga as the ancient master archetype means that he's never supposed to fight physically. The ancient master doesn't win fights with muscle-strength, but with enormous skills and conservation of motion.

For a Jedi version of an ancient master, all Yoda fight-scenes should have been like his initial Tai Chi pushing-hands move where he absorbed and redirected the Force-lightning.

Since size equates to physical power in people's minds on a primal level, Yoda plays into the ancient master type by being small. This emphasizes his enormous skills because we already know that he should be weak physically.
I know I'm late to the conversation but this this this.

If you wanted the audience to go apeshit in a good way in that fight, it should have built up with Duku talking shit and acting like this was going to be the mother of all fights, and Yoda just kind of trying to talk him down right up to the last second, when Duku charges in with his lightsaber and Yoda fucking drops him in one strike. Like lightsaber out, activated, cut, and put away in one smooth move. It's over before you even realize it started.

Then, like a true martial arts master, you can have Yoda regret having to use violence against his former pupil. Sure Anakin has to murder someone in the next film, but fuck it, anyone can fill that role. It sets up the dichotomy between Yoda and the Emperor. You play up the opposites between the Emperor's End justifying the Means and Yoda's means being an end in themselves.

Which would make the final fight between Yoda and the Emperor actually *mean* something, both because we know Yoda is a total badass and it would also reflect the symbolic struggle for Anakin's soul.
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Post by sabs »

Yeah, but by then Lucas is drunk on cocaine and hookers, and thinks he's actually the Gods gift to Movies the popularity of star wars makes him think he is.

The second 3 movies promise to deliver you Paris in Spring time. And instead, they take you on a scenic route of that Vegas Paris Casino, with a replica of the Eifel tower in it.

Yoda falls short, the Emperor falls short. Fucking Anakin Skywalker is completely unbelievable as having a soul destroying moment that turns him into Darth Vader.

The only cool part of those movies, is the few moments when Ewan McGregor manages to channel Alec Guiness and you can see the moments that haunt Ob1 in the very first Star Wars movie.
The rest of the movies is unmitigated crap that makes Michael Bay suggest maybe less special effects might have been a good idea.
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Post by flare22 »

Save your insults guys you will need them when the Disney star wars movies come out and make it worse.
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Post by Voss »

Eh. I expect them to be fairly average, if a bit lore breaking. Which at this point is a step up. Action+lasers+ships+a touch of mystical bullshit that doesn't need to be explained and you've got the basic formula. Take out 30 minute cgi masturbation scenes involving nothing more than going around in a circle, and save terrible exposition about horrible conceptions of galatic socio-economic frameworks, and replace it with a moving plot, and you've got a better film.
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Post by fectin »

"This war was caused by a failure to listen."
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

flare22 wrote:there was the old republic witch
There was an old republic WITCH? OK once it brings in republican witches the EU has gone too far!
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Post by flare22 »

PhoneLobster wrote:
flare22 wrote:there was the old republic witch
There was an old republic WITCH? OK once it brings in republican witches the EU has gone too far!
Thanks for pointing that out I went back and corrected it.
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Post by Voss »

PhoneLobster wrote:
flare22 wrote:there was the old republic witch
There was an old republic WITCH? OK once it brings in republican witches the EU has gone too far!
They showed up about 20 years ago.
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Post by Insomniac »

I thought for sure this was coming out in Christmas but statements like...

"We're still trying to get the fundamentals and math squared away" and major things like the Druid and Paladin change have me baffled.

Next was announced January 2012 and its October 2013 yet they just
now got to releasing the last market research packet.

They're still changing the damn thing and have copped to the fact that the math isn't up to snuff and is being farmed out to a B team for a rush Christmas or 40th anniversary release.

I don't possibly see how this could be good.
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Post by shadzar »

they have no set date for DDN, they are all jsut biding time to keep their jobs past christmas because they sense another round of layoffs when this edition is finished. heads are on the chopping block and they jsut want to get by the holiday season with their paychecks intact a little longer.

who will be the next to go? the lead designer(mearls) again as always? the art director(jon shitheady), the story designer(wyatt)?
tussock wrote:
most people actually knew of these mythical monsters before playing D&D when it began
I certainly didn't, I was 14 and didn't give two shits about mythology,
you must have had a very shitty school system where you lived then, because by that age you should have already had to read about them in some way during middle school. or you were in one of the short-bus classes....and i have no idea what they do, but i once saw them finger painting in high school.
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good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Insomniac »

So it is all just a ruse to not get fired for 2 or 3 Decembers?
Fair enough.
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Post by infected slut princess »

I am going to throw a huge party at my house the day Mike Mearls gets fired. FUCK YOU MIKE MEARLS I FUCKING HATE YOUR GUTS
Oh, then you are an idiot. Because infected slut princess has never posted anything worth reading at any time.
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Post by flare22 »

Let's just hope the person they replace him with isn't any worse then he is.
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Post by Voss »

Insomniac wrote:I thought for sure this was coming out in Christmas but statements like...
"We're still trying to get the fundamentals and math squared away" and major things like the Druid and Paladin change have me baffled.
Its late spring or summer of next year, and that was largely always the target date- the year or so of 'testing' was always planned, though it was described as more substantial than it turned out to be. Pretty much regardless of whether they work things out, 2014 is the year for 5e. Otherwise they've effectively buried the license themselves.


As for the Paladin change, actually that isn't a big deal. At least 2 paths for each class should be the minimum, and other than the stealth change to bring their spellcasting DCs up, the only change was dropping in a path. And those should be deployable in exactly that fashion, to be honest: Simple character options without writing new bullshit classes. So, in some ways, the paladin is exactly what they should be doing- Adding compact option packages to classes to make them more robust, while the main chassis just gets little tweaks.

Rewriting Wildshape, on the other hand, was pretty nuts. And the way they did it was subpar in the extreme. Before a 'beast' druid had to be built to take advantage of that, and would have to lower its spellcasting abilities to really exploit it and be a really top-of-the-line fighter type.

Now the beast build is 'extreme fullcaster' (because you max out your mental stats, as physical stats are replaced) with mediocre fighting abilities and a pool of extra hp while doing so. But the fighting forms actually get worse with level, as they don't improve at all. The dire wolf might be level appropriate(ish) at level 2, and the tiger at level 6, but they suck for levels 4-5 and 8-9, and with such shitty abilities and low AC, the extra pool of hit points won't keep the druid up for long.
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Post by Insomniac »

What is so bad about 3.5 Wildshape? Yeah, it has problems
but every cure is worse than the disease. Pathfinder, 4E and now Next
do an absolutely rotten job with it to a point where it is passable to a
mediocre trap option when Wildshaping is half the friggin' reason to be
a Druid. Just leave well enough alone.

I think spring/summer 2014 is too late. By then almost everybody will have moved on from 4E to a prior system, retroclone or Pathfinder, indie system or point buy for their D&D except a die-hard 4venger.

These people will have been playing a legacy or a supported system for 2 or 3 full years before 5th comes out. What makes them think they'll get any adoption rate off that outside of the first 3 months of 50 bucks for the core 3 books curiosity? They'd have to be absolutely knocking it out of the park with the system but right now it is a C grade at best thing that almost nobody seems excited for. It doesn't have the radical design choices and controversy that 4E had going for it. Jesus, did I just praise
4E somehow?

Forgotten Realms, you ain't kidding! Hasn't been a 4E book out for that in
about 5 years! The last 3 4E books that came out were November and December...2011 and May 2012.

How is this acceptable? How is all of about 500 pages of non-Big 3 (DMG/PHB/MM) material in 3 years acceptable? Forget about Mearls with WOTC, how is he even in this industry? Why isn't he on Kickstarter with Cordell and Wyatt begging for "Steel Heroes: This Time We'll Do The Math, Pinky Swear!" money?
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Post by Sashi »

Three major contributions:

1) If there's any oversight of the design process at all it's probably coming in the form of play sessions in a misguided attempt to ape the M:tG dev cycle. But an RPG is going to seem fine if you simply have active players and an engaging MC, no matter how terribad the rules are.

2) Hasbro is one of the largest companies on the planet. The cost of the D&D design team is virtually nil compared to their general operating costs. And Mearls is extremely good at selling pie-in-the-sky promises. I have a feeling that someone is being shown regular powerpoints about "engagement" and "revitalization".

3) The D&D brand has been a terrible under-performer for a long long time, and RPGs as a whole aren't that easy to monetize in the modern economy. It's likely that D&D is a dumping ground and hiding place for poor employees.
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Post by tussock »

@Insomniac. What's wrong with AD&D wildshape?

Anyhoo, Meals, facing the rapid decline of sales in 4e, got into the whole Essentials ra ra, but not enough so he'd be responsible. After that tanked (which was immediately, negative net sales from the start) and they started cancelling product lines, Mearls got made #1.

That's 2011, he says you need 3 years to make an edition, and 4e is unprofitable to publish. So the plan is to shut down production and put a skeleton crew on writing a new edition for 2014, it'll be y2k all over again. They'll get free hype with a playtest like Paizo did (only not do it anything like what Paizo did because ???) ... and here we are. They've got some trifling income from digital sales again, no doubt some 4e people are still paying for the website upkeep.

What could you sack him for? He's doing exactly what he said he'd do. Nothing. For three years. Best job EVAR.


@Sashi. #3, D&D could be huge money, any time. The only reason WoW wasn't paying gigantic licensing fees to WotCGames Workshop for a few years is that someone at TSRGW decided they didn't want a RTS game built around D&DWarhammer, turned it down, and Warcraft #1 got it's own branding. They actively sought to kill off character generators and stuff for a couple decades, codemonkey got a licence and then got it pulled because ???.

If they'd just left Paizo with the profitable Dungeon and Dragon mags, no Pathfinder. If they'd stuck with the OGL, massive free support network. If they'd let people build ogl character generators and put everything in the fucking ogl, 3e not so bad in the first place. If they'd noticed the minis sales were going to the RPG players, minis could still be selling for real money. So many opportunities to reap good profits and trivialise their competition just chucked down the fucking toilet.

I mean, there may not be money in books, but Harry Potter (PCs) and Twilight (monsters) says there fucking well can be if you write some basic fantasy heartbreakers for character empowerment. Real money. D&D books could just be that big.

And now, people are actually hanging out for a new edition. Folk are tired of Pathfinder getting bigger. No one wants to play 4e. People are asking about 5e, it's just that no one has anything good to say about it.
Last edited by tussock on Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Insomniac »

Mearls has got to be this God Tier weasely guy manipulator behind the scenes yet I've never seen that on film. Every time he looked like a fat tosser and behaved like a buffoon. "Yo yo yo, mai elf ninjaz! MC Killzalot in the heezy, hack'n and slashing fo' loot fo sheezy!"

I mean this guy did a video promoting 5th Edition where he presented
a Dwarf character called MC Killzalot who was wearing a "steel tuxedo and steel top hat" (O.G. Original Goofus) and was reinventing himself
after a failed "prog rock album." It was flagrantly anachronistic and douche-chilling in a tech demo setting that was meant to be played straight. I'd fire the guy on the spot for a joke that bad, much less
having the 10 ton balls to actually run the character!

MC Killzalot? "Class unspecified" so he didn't even have the common courtesy to run that shocking, embarrassing affront to everybody at the table with Bard levels.
tussock wrote:
The plan is to shut down production and put a skeleton crew on writing a new edition for 2014, it'll be y2k all over again. They'll get free hype with a playtest like Paizo did (only not do it anything like what Paizo did because ???) ... and here we are. They've got some trifling income from digital sales again, no doubt some 4e people are still paying for website upkeep. What could you sack him for? He's doing exactly what he said he'd do. Nothing. For three years. Best job EVAR.
Last edited by Insomniac on Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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