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Laertes
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Post by Laertes »

But it's the only story you can tell with the underdark under this paradigm. Not explaining what the underdark is and how it works is actually far better from a story telling standpoint because that doesn't lock out any possible stories that can be told while your explanation does, in fact, lock out all other possible stories.
Yes. Yes, that's true. If you tell a story with this Underdark, you lock out all other stories. But that's fine. I don't know about you, but I can come up with vastly more setting ideas than I have time to run campaigns. This whole cancer-Underdark thing was literally just something that occurred to me today in the space of about seven hours while bouncing ideas off you guys. This is not a groundshaking event, it's just another day inside my skull.

Consequently, the idea that I might have to ever reuse an idea, or write a setting which is not custom-designed for the particular game I'm running, is fairly foreign to me. Every gaming group and every campaign is its own entirely separate world: there is no reason not to tailor that world exactly to the needs of the individual campaign and the individual group, and no reason to make that world survive the campaign.
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Post by Lokathor »

darkmaster wrote:I can't get behind the underdark as a malevolent entity that is eating the world. Because if that's the case then the underdark is evil, it has to be evil it can't be anything else because any being that exists only to consume and destroy can only be classified as evil. Basically you can't include Galactus in your setting and insist "no totally guys he's not evil, he just consumes everything in his path because he's hungry." So by doing that you make the only reasonable interaction with the underdark killing it because the underdark is evil under that paradigm.
Are bears evil for eating fish?

The underdark isn't even destroying the world, it's just changing the world's design. Lots of stuff can live in the underdark, it's not destroying life.

Like, in the real world, we know that the sun is eating itself to death, and it will bring us all down with it eventually. Hell, long before that, just 800 Million years and we'll run out of carbon dioxide and the last type of photosynthesis that's still working at that point will fail and all multi-cellular life on earth will die off. Time to panic right? Time to call the whole universe evil for arranging such a death trap just to bring things to life within it and then let them die. No. No one even cares that much. That's a long time from now and for later people to worry about.

Even if characters in a DnD game knew that the underdark was going to spread all through the prime, and spread all through the other planes, and connect all the planes together eventually... probably few would even care. Even if you're an ageless dragon expected to live over a thousand years, it's still not a big deal, because it's gonna take like 10,000 years for the underdark to consume all the planes. You'd seriously have to be in an Asimov book for people to be worried and doing something about it.
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Post by darkmaster »

Except that you're wrong because the underdark in this set up is specifically eating everything, all things and exists only for that purpose. Bears it fish to survive, the sun's running out of fuel is simply a side effect of it having fuel. The underdark consumes everything that is because that is the only think it's capable of doing. It is specifically a malevolent force that exists only to destroy. There is literally nothing that better describes evil than that.

As for no one caring, outsiders are immortal and never age, when you die your soul goes to an outer plane and one of three things happen, you get turned into something, you become a petitioner and live forever in that plane, you become an outsider. Someone fucking cares somewhere in the D&D multiverse because death is verifiably not the end.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by Chamomile »

If worlds are created in a state resembling paleolithic Earth (i.e. so that history happens in a way we'd expect but we skip the four billion year prelude), you only need to have about ~6,000 years worth of history to cover all of the time you could possibly want to cover. If the underdark takes 6,000+ years to devour the world (which is still lightning fast geologically), that still leaves you enough time to do pretty much whatever you want with the setting before then. The absolutely longest period of history I have ever created for a setting was about 20,000 years long (and that included millenia-long periods where the only thing that happened was cave elf diaspora), so if you set the apocalyptic ETA to 21,000 years, no one ever need care.

Except for the immortals, granted, but even when players interact with immortal outsiders they don't generally go around ticking off every single item on their agenda. So it's totally fine if Pelor's saying "yeah, the underdark on your prime is all set to devour everything within the next six thousand years, we'll have to intervene at some point before then, but right now we're really more concerned with Nerull's legions marching across the continent ending all life they encounter." And then the rest of the campaign has nothing to do with the underdark at all.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

fectin wrote:What's the likelihood that you could have two continental plates running into each other and both going up or delaminating high/low? I can imagine that creating caverns along the fault line.
Oceanic plates subduct (the older sliding under the newer because it is denser. When continental plates collide they don't pass over each other in the same way. They crumple and push up a mighty mountain range (like the Himalayas). Subduction does occur in these regions, but not as easily as it would where ocean crusts meet.

As far as caverns, I'd think they wouldn't tend to last long. The deformation of the rock from high pressure/press should fill in any gaps over time. But since the time frames are enormous compared to human lifespans, it seems reasonable in the short term.

Regarding the term 'umberite', I like it - it seems to relate to Umber Hulks (a D&D monster known for phasing through solid rock).

I like the idea of tiny brown mold spores being capable of digesting the rock (as well as heat), but typically the colonies are so small that they are invisible to the naked eye. If a colony grows large enough, it becomes identified as brown mold. Most people wouldn't realize that most passages in the Underdark are cool because of the wide-spread existence of brown mold (and in places where it conglomerates too much it gets downright COLD). Brown Mold would necessarily want to avoid growing too large because there is a limit to ambient heat - a colony that creates a VERY COLD area is starving to death. Where possible, brown mold spreads out very thinly.

If brown mold 'eats' heat, it would have to have a way of dispersing it. The best option is that consuming the minerals in stone is an endothermic reaction (absorbing heat, rather than releasing it). Those are pretty rare in nature (outside of photosynthesis) but they do exist... If the brown mold is creating an endothermic reaction, the more they eat, the colder it would get. Presumably, there could be some limit where it is too cold to process functionally.

Anyways, I think it could be interesting to think about.
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Post by Grek »

Serious Question:

If the Underdark is slowly turning the inside of the planet into a complicated network of caverns which extends across all the Prime Material Planes and will eventually subsume the entire planet into a giant network of endless caves... Why do I care? It is demonstrably possible to live in the Underdark. Even if you have some sentimental attachment to the Surface, you can always make a big trip through the Underdark and come up on some other Prime that still has a surface. Or hell, just move to Bytopia.
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Post by Ice9 »

Not sure if this fits, but an idea I just had regarding the underdark-creating thingy.

It doesn't eat matter, it eats space. Specifically, the space between particles, causing matter to condense into a degenerate state similar to a white-dwarf star. For ... reasons, the condensed matter has the tendency to stay where it is, instead of falling to the center of the world.

Also, the thingy is sensitive to increased gravity, as exists if things get too condensed in one spot, so it spreads out, forming a sheet instead of a blob. Resulting in big caverns where the stone formerly occupying that space is now all condensed into the walls of said cavern.

This creates highly strong walls for the caverns - not exactly super-hard, just super tough, because mining through a few inches of it is equivalent to mining through yards or even miles of normal stone. And it's not a resource people would want to mine either - if you chip off some from the whole, it re-expands to normal density, like a waterfall of stone.
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Post by Lokathor »

darkmaster wrote:Except that you're wrong because the underdark in this set up is specifically eating everything, all things and exists only for that purpose. Bears it fish to survive, the sun's running out of fuel is simply a side effect of it having fuel. The underdark consumes everything that is because that is the only think it's capable of doing. It is specifically a malevolent force that exists only to destroy. There is literally nothing that better describes evil than that.
It turns solid rock that only Xorn and Earth Elementals can live inside into an interconnected series of caverns that are much more hospitable to life in general. Soooooo dangerous. Even if 100% of the planet becomes an underdark network all the way down to the mantle's molten layer.... so what? There's still a surface, and people on the surface probably won't ever notice. What's happening is that non-livable space is becoming livable space. Fuck, for all we know it's all part of an ancient terraforming process that was started long ago by a long lost race to try and keep population density down by constantly making more space to live in.

Also, your argument about what's evil and what's not is bullshit. "The underdark spreading because that's all it's able to do is evil!! ...but the sun burning out because that's all it's able to do somehow isn't evil."
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Post by darkmaster »

Have you been fucking listening at all? The underdark in this system eats everything. When it's done there won't be surface, there won't be anything because it's all been eaten. So no, your argument that it's doing some kind of service by making more livable space is bullshit because that is not what has actually been described you fucking asshole.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by Lokathor »

How would there not be a surface? That doesn't even make sense. It transforms rock into caverns. It doesn't transform air into caverns.
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Post by darkmaster »

... nope. You're trolling, that is the only explanation fro what you just said.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by Lokathor »

Lokathor wrote:As to Umberite: If it should be everywhere, but it should also not be transportable, then perhaps the "entity" idea is the direction to go. It could be some sort of singular creature, hive mind, or the like, that spreads through what is otherwise solid rock, and when you're walking through the climate-controlled underdark full of green crystals and mosses and all that stuff making an active biosphere underground, you're actually inside the "bones" of the underdark entity. The underdark would physically be a series of tunnels and caverns with large pillars at weird angles going between the floor and ceiling through most of the smaller caverns. Like the spongy bone picture from before. A select few caverns would open up large enough to just be the great underground caverns that cities are built in and such. The underdark does "spread", but slowly.
Bolding mine. Also, see how I'm the one who wrote down that specific version of the idea we're now talking about? I kinda remember what I wrote.

It affects rock. It doesn't spread into things that aren't rock. It doesn't spread into water. It doesn't spread into air. It doesn't spread into magma. It doesn't spread into soil.

Not complicated.
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Post by Echoes »

darkmaster wrote:... nope. You're trolling, that is the only explanation fro what you just said.
Maybe you should let the people who are codifying the idea finish fucking codifying it before telling them that they are clearly wrong about their interpretation of the thing they just fucking wrote. I am all for not assuming authorial intent and such, but the authors are right here doing the authoring in front of you, and you are telling them that they are wrong about the thing they haven't finished writing.

Better yet, just shut the fuck up and let folks keep coming up with awesome concepts. Seriously, the Underdark as a Tiberium/Galactus hybrid is fucking amazeballs and you guys shouldn't listen to darkmaster because he is a fucking moron.

To contribute meaningfully, I ran this idea past my geologist roommate and he recommends having it consume silica. Earth-like planets are absolutely thick with the stuff and it would allow us to have sweet glowing crystal deposits as waste byproducts. It gets its energy from the heat underground, which explains why the Underdark is unseasonably cold; the Tiberium Umberite is absorbing the bulk of it to fuel its growth. Add in whatever dash of magic you want to tie everything together.
Last edited by Echoes on Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Shatner »

Okay, so I've been hanging out in meatspace for the last seven hours or so and have just recently read through the all-consuming menace and/or threatening but ultimately neutral Umberite posts. I'm a little confused, so I'm hoping some of you good folks can enlighten me as to which of the following is wrong.

Umberite Facts... I think
1) Umberite eats heat and pressure, and possibly background magic/radiation. It uses this foodstuff to allow it to expand.

2) Umberite expands by extending into tiny cracks and crevices in the surrounding stone, then growing those tendrils larger and larger. This has the effect of shoving all the surrounding stone out of the way. Or does this stone get absorbed (fully? partially?)?

3) Once Umberite gets sufficiently thick, it forms hollows which ultimately form caverns. Because these hollows are the inside of a pressure eating entity, you have caverns that can be many miles underground but are neither particularly pressurized nor hot.

4) As a side effect of... whatever it is Umberite does (eat silica, maybe), crystals grow inside these hollows, and opportunistic molds and slimes and whatnot have learned to eat the crystals, which then form the bottom of a subterranean food chain.

5) Umberite extends it's tendrils not just through space (e.g. along a crack in a rock) but across planes as well. This means that Umberite is able to spread to, for example, the Elemental Plane of Earth as well as the Prime Material.

6) Because of this trans-planar inter-connectivity, there are places in the hollows within the Umberite that bridge the planes. So a goblin walking along a particular hollow within the mantle of the Prime could wind up in a connected hollow in Limbo.

7) (And here's where I get really confused) Once the Umberite reaches the surface it will... consume the Prime? How exactly would that work since there's an arbitrarily large amount of "Up" for it to expand into (trees and buildings and oceans, a whole lot of atmosphere, space, solar system, interstellar void, galaxy, etc.)? Or do you mean that the surface would remain air and trees and oceans and shit but all of the ground would eventually become Umberite, with maybe an outer layer of some topsoil?


I'm 100% with the concept we're kickin' around, but I'm lost on some of the particulars. Concerning Umberite being trans-planar: I'm actually kinda okay with that, but I want to point out that these connections should be few and far between because we want the underground to be mostly "Adventures in the Underdark!" and less "Sigil, the city of portals... but more spread out and with less sunlight".

Also, I'm a bit confused about the displacement effect the spreading Umberite has on the surrounding stone. If it was just pushing stuff out of the way then really it'd be pushing more and more stone up, so the spread of the Umber would be marked with ever-rising hills and mountains. That doesn't seem desirable so it replacing at least some amount of stone with itself seems necessary.

Finally, what exactly happens when someone tunnels through a bunch of conventional stone, through the Umberite "skin", and into a hollow? Does the hollow, which is unnaturally low pressure and low temperature, equalize suddenly with the higher pressure, higher temperature tunnel? Does the Umberite attempt to close the breach somehow? Or is the skin and the hollow inert Umberite, and the living, spreading part is only at the leading edges? You know, like coral, which is basically dead and hard like stone on the inside but coated in a spreading layer of living stuff on the outside.

I feel like there are some things that have become understood in this thread while I was away that I'm just not getting, either because of poor reading comprehension on my part, or because you all are clued in to a context that I'm only just now stumbling across. Regardless, thanks for catching me up on what I've missed.
Last edited by Shatner on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Laertes »

Looks like I just slept through some interesting discussion. Okay, you guys need to start having these talks when I'm awake. That's all I'm saying.

As for specific posts, they will be answered in due course.
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Post by tussock »

"Consume silica" doesn't really mean anything different to "the nothing".


Anyway, going back a bit. The thing with caverns is the world has a huge number of them, they're just full of water and rocks. See, there's bunches of open spaces created over time, and then there's also loose rock created, and then it rains and water moves down very energetically and the loose rock gets carried down deeper and deeper until it sinks into some seasonal-depth cistern and forms a blockage at every single pinch.

Sometimes the blockages can be removed to discover large chambers lower down. Sometimes the water drains deeply enough to let you get into those lower chambers and break through another blockage. It's just rare, because mostly they fill up pretty solidly with large boulders and stay full of water anyway. More than about 70m of water is lethal, you can't dive them, and it's normally far too deep to pump water out to the surface even temporarily.


If you want a logical Underdark, you need something that drains the water, and something else to regularly breach the boulder jams. I think there's pretty simple portal systems and various rock-eating monsters which do that automatically in D&D, so it's all good. If Xorn and Delvers prefer the boulders, the depths become navigable. If Drow keep water drains at the low points in their caverns, it's liveable too.


Then just have the ever-expanding drow caverns with their self-replicating portals start a cascade of void creation that destabilises the surface world and generates ever-more powerful earthquakes which create more voids and ... get back to "the nothing" concept.
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Post by Grek »

My conception:

The Underdark is a mineral based, coral-like lifeform of extraplanar origin. It sustains itself by absorbing magical radiation from the core of the planet using glowing green crystals akin to the leaves of a plant. These crystals grow best when exposed to open air of comparatively low temperature and pressure and moderate water content. As a result, the Underdark tends to form into cavernous, temperature-humidity-and-pressure controlled hollows in which these crystals can properly grow. These caverns are supported by vast pillars of a mineral known as Umberite, secreted by the Underdark as a skeletal system for its caverns. Water content is controlled by the pillars absorbing liquid around them and slowly secreting it out into the Elemental Plane of Water. Similarly, the Underdark reproduces by extending tunnels of itself across the planes via magic, spreading like a metaphorical fungus through the metaphorical bread that is the geology of the cosmos. Inside of the Underdark's body, a number of mosses, molds and slimes can be found feeding on the waste-light released by the Underdark's crystals. These form the basis of the subterranean food chain.
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Post by Lokathor »

Let's first say what our desired output is: Realistic enough geology in some places, and in others we just throw reality out the window and have an entire second world worth of underground caverns and tunnels lit up in weird colors with glowing fungus and molds and crystals and populated with kuo-toa / deep ones, aboleths, mind flayers, dreugar, drow, myconids, xorn, etc, etc. that you can potentially talk to, as well as umber hulks, and other weird monsters that you can't really talk to.

Here's how I propose to get there: Magic. No, really. Mostly like Grek's plan.

The Underdark is a force, entity, or perhaps hive (scholars disagree) that slowly spreads through otherwise solid rock, forming uneven tunnels, small caverns full of criss crossing stone pillars usually 10 to 20 yards across, larger caverns that can be as big as an enclosed football stadium, and very rarely caverns that are even larger than that. It extends out slowly, like the roots of a plant, and creeps into uninhabited rock. Each tendril slowly grows as it spreads, expanding out into the tunnels, which are hollow on the inside. This process is relatively slow, usually pushing the edge of a tunnel by no more than 1ft per year.

Caverns are formed as tumorous growths within a tendril when too much arcane energy enters into an area. The tunnel in that area slowly expands out and begins to shoot off new tendrils in random directions, until it becomes a branching cavern. Such fluxes are usually no longer than a few decades, so the caverns generally don't get that large. Some of the largest underdark caverns have actually been artificially created.

In some places there are natural planar portals to other planes, and the underdark can spread through these, turning the resulting tunnel into a bleed from one world into the next. It's all rocky tunnels though, so it's often not apparent that you've crossed planes at all.

What happens to all that rock moving out of the way? It's just gone. The underdark eats it up. Always remember that DnD doesn't subscribe to Conservation of Energy in the first place, so it's fine if it's just gone.

What happens when the underdark tries to expand into something other than rock? It can't do that. If you're not careful you might sometimes expose a tunnel edge that stopped when it hit the soil, or you might come across a tunnel that went right up to the side of the mountain. It'll never consume the universe or anything though.

The support stones must be stupidly strong. Can I take that ultra powerful support stone and build an invincible castle out of it? No, when you separate the stones from the cavern they lose their mystic reinforcement and become only as good as normal stone. Like the bones of a dead animal drying out and becoming brittle and fragile.
Last edited by Lokathor on Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Laertes »

To answer earlier posts because I'm on the train and so "in due course" is now:
darkmaster and deaddmwalking are right. I'm not going to weigh in on what "evil" means in D&D because we have a thread going on that right now and it's getting nowhere. However, they're right that it is setting destroying. Quite literally so in fact, since your setting is made of planet and planets are made of stone and it destroys stone.

One of the many reasons why I try to stay away from D&D is that I loathe kitchen sink settings. I grew up playing White Wolf and in those games the idea of crossover is a cancer. You have to be ruthless about excising it because otherwise people will bring across concepts that don't belong, like Spirits into Vampire or The Wyrm into Mage or The Umbra into Wraith or True Magi into Werewolf. I love each of those games but they are very different, not just in their content but their outlook. Vampire is a game about doubting yourself. Werewolf is a game about fighting impossible odds. Mage is a game about the law of unintended consequences. Setting elements which build on these will cross over extremely badly and will wreck the game you're porting them into. Most importantly, the antagonists and endgames of each will wreck the other game you're porting it into. A game setting cannot have multiple apocalypses and multiple End Guys, unless the point of it is a gambit pileup where everyone ends up foiling everyone else's plans like in a Guy Ritchie movie.

What does this mean for the Underdark? Well, in the Underdark there are these things called Drow and Illithids and Aboleths and Beholders and possibly others that I've missed. And each of them, from what I understand, is a potential apocalypse waiting to happen. They are each a very plausible End Guy. If they exist in your world and your party is not fighting them, then they are wasting their time and your players will all be thinking "hey, maybe we should go to the below and wipe us out some Illithids?" And they'll be right, which is why I said deaddmwalking was right earlier. Merely the process of having Illithids in your game world at all means your campaign has to be about stopping them because otherwise you get to the end and the players ask "so what happens afterwards?" and you have to say "well, the Illithids enslave everyone and eat their brains. You didn't even meet them in this game, let alone fight them. But it happened."

The way you get around that, which is what I hope everyone does, is to not have them in your game. I don't mean write them out of the setting; I mean write the fact that they are an End Guy out of the setting. So you may end up with a thing that's called an Illithid and looks like an Illithid and has the same powers as an Illithid but is merely a creepy tentacle-faced brain eating monster rather than a forthcoming apocalypse that your characters need to drop whatever they're doing in order to fight. To do otherwise is madness.

So when I pitch the Cancerous Nothing Underdark, then yes it's a potential End Guy. If that doesn't work for you then steal its clothes and use them to build an Underdark which is merely creepy but not an End Guy. You're already doing the same for all the other apocalypses that most D&D settings have, why not this one too?
I think Lokathor hit the nail on the head there with the most lucid suggestion yet. The Underdark shouldn't be made of any sort of Umberite or anything, it should be a series of caverns that grow into stone but can't pierce soil or seafloor sediment or whatever. That way what's holding the ceiling up isn't a substance that people can steal or destroy or anything; what's holding the ceiling up is the inherent Underdarkness of it.

The Underdark isn't Nothing: it's full of Underdark. You and I can walk through it and breathe it, but it's not air. It's a tangible entity which holds up the ceiling because that's a power that it has. Old Dwarf mines can get invaded by it and overtaken by it, and it can snake down their corridors, gradually replacing the local flora and fauna with its own.

The Underdark can be like Xen from Half-Life or the Orks or Tyranids from 40k: not merely an invading horde, but an invading ecosystem.
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Post by Lokathor »

Everything in that spoiler block is a totally fascinating and bizarre take on how settings should be designed and work in play. I disagree with almost all of the assumptions it makes, but I am enthralled none the less.
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Post by Zaranthan »

It's an amusing read, but way off base. The idea of "this is what this game is about, don't muck it up with cross-genre stuff" is fine, but the DMG reminds you a hundred times that the PCs are not unique. If your campaign isn't about stopping the mind flayers, that doesn't mean they're not trying to take over the world. That means there's a bunch of NPCs handling it.

If all your NPC paladins are just sitting around the temple waiting for the party to come poke them in the belly, you're doing it wrong. When off-camera, they should be repelling stone giant invasions and stomping upcoming necromancer kings into dust, because the PCs aren't around to do that for them.
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Post by Laertes »

If it's not the way D&D works then it's not the way D&D works. Fair enough. If someone wants to start a thread to discuss that tangent then they can; for now let's talk about interesting fantasy cultures.

With the exception of some stuff on mining, that's basically the end of my geology knowledge. If people are interested in reading about medieval mining then I can write another monologue on it; otherwise I think those are done. I hope you enjoyed it and I hope it was applicable to your game.

On the other hand I have some stuff about transhumance, flood-plain agriculture, sky islands and wetland forests which I think I could write up in a similar way if anyone's interested in seeing trees and soil get the same treatment.
fectin
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Post by fectin »

Despite failing to do my part (fiancée demanded I do laundry instead) i would love to hear about sky islands.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
Shatner
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Post by Shatner »

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Design Goal: Have goblinoids be ubiquitous and very morphologically diverse. At least some variants should basically be monsters while other variants should be playable. That said, this morphology shouldn't be something that affects a player's character mid-campaign; these aren't Warhammer greesnskins who grow larger and greener and tougher as they age. Therefore the morphology should stop varying by the age a character would go adventuring.

Designer Notes: I decided it would be more interesting and exotic to have all the goblinoid "species" (goblin, hobgoblin, bugbear) able to interbreed freely to really play up the fast-and-loose nature of gobinoid morphology. Also, I don't like the name bugbear. It's dumb. The actual conceptual space the bugbear inhabits is fine, so that's being kept and even built on a bit, but I hate the name so I'm replacing it. As is the case in most of these revisions, I'm borrowing liberally from the Frank and K Tomes. "Dai Bakemono" and "O-Bakemono" I'm stealing from Dominions 3 and 4, because that's a great game and those are cool names. Also, I know that DnD goblins are orange and Warhammer/Warcraft goblins are green. This is an outgrowth of DnD, so I should go orange, but frankly the green version is the one people think of most often and shows up both higher and more frequently in an image search. I'm just going to let people play orange gobbos or green gobbos as they see fit.

Goblinoids

No matter where you go, there they are.


Goblinoid is an umbrella term to refer to any particular member of the species which has four distinct body types and countless individual differentiations based on climate, parentage, and diet. The four body types are the Hobgoblin, which is medium sized and has an inherent sense of hierarchy, the Dai Bakemono, which is medium sized, mostly carnivorous, and known for violent xenophobia, the O-Bakemono, which is large, dim-witted, and mostly herbivorous, and the Goblin, which is the smallest and most common example of the species.

Despite the wide range of physical differences between individual goblinoids, there are some qualities which are shared by all members of the race. Goblinoids are innately very precise in their movements, making the whole race very quiet. When combined with the heightened dexterity possessed by all goblinoids, the race is quite adept at moving stealthily. All varieties reach physical maturity in their early teens and usually die from old age in their fifties. They are also possessing of a robust constitution and a gastrointestinal tract that is capable of digesting nearly any organic matter swallowed. As a result, goblinoids are immune to ingested poisons and are very capable omnivores, though some body types have a preference for animal or vegetable matter. Goblinoids eyes vary in color from red to yellow and skin coloration lies on a continuum between green and orange (except for Hobgoblins, who are only orange); some individuals are vividly one or the other extreme while still others are a muddier middle color. With the exception of the Hobgoblin, all goblinoids are born adapted to the temperature and lighting of their surroundings. Those from frigid caverns will have heavier fur and darkvision. Those from hot surface regions will have superior heat tolerance and excellent low-light vision. This adaptability has allowed the various types of goblinoids to populate nearly every corner of the globe.

All varieties of goblinoid can interbreed with one another, and the variety of goblinoid born depends on the type, diet, and health of the parents at the time of conception. Healthy and well-fed goblinoids who've predominately eaten meat will tend to sire Dai Bakemono. Healthy and well-fed goblinoids who've predominately eaten plants will tend to sire O-Bakemonos. If both parents are a Hobgoblin, the offspring will always be Hobgoblins. If only one parent is a Hobgoblin then only about one in eight offspring will be Hobgoblins. Any other combination of health, diet, and type will result predominately in Goblins. This is because while Goblins are neither as large, strong, nor fierce as the other goblinoid types, they are the most versatile. They are the best at stealth and are capable of living on both less food and a wider range of food than the others. The eyes of a young goblinoid will quickly and permanently adapt to either darkvision or low-light vision, depending on whichever is most advantageous for their surroundings, though Hobgoblins defy this and only ever possess darkvision. Non-Hobgoblins born in areas of extreme temperatures will become adapted to comfortably live in either cold or heat, though at the cost of finding the other extreme more difficult to cope with. An under-nourished goblinoid will become slightly but noticably shorter, while a healthy one will stand a little taller. Meat consumption tends to enhance aggression in goblinoids, regardless of the type.


Goblinoid Traits
* +4 racial bonus to Move Silently
* Darkvision 60' or Low-Light Vision
* Immunity to Ingested Poisons
* Optionally, one of the following:
** Cold Endurance and Heat Weakness: a +4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves made to resist the effects of cold weather or exposure, and a -4 racial penalty on Fortitude saves made to resist the effects of hot weather
** Heat Endurance and Cold Weakness: a +4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves made to resist the effects of hot weather, and a -4 racial penalty on Fortitude saves made to resist the effects of cold weather or exposure


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Goblins: The most common type of goblinoid, a goblin (also called a gobbo or gob) ranges from slightly less than three feet to three-and-a-half feet tall and weighs thirty five to fifty pounds. That range of height and weight can apply to the same adult goblin over the course of a year, depending on their health and diet. Goblins are predisposed towards mild xenophobia, and so they tend to get along with other races poorly. However, of all the types of goblinoids, goblins exhibit the widest range of personalities, being about on par with that of humans in terms of variety. Simply put, it is practically guaranteed that goblins live wherever it is you care to name, and if they don't it is only because they were driven out. The goblinoid species has easily been the most successful humanoid species at spreading across the globe, and the goblin is the most widespread of the goblinoids. They may not always be in charge, they may not always be respected, sometimes they may even be in hiding, but they are almost always present.

Because of their size and racial advantages in stealth, most goblins become rogues, though goblin wizards and barbarians are known to also benefit from superior hiding and sneaking.
Stats: Small Size, Move Speed 20, +2 dex, +2 con, -2 str, -2 cha


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Hobgoblins: The Hobgoblins (also called hobbos or hobs) grow to a little less than the size and mass of an adult human. They have brownish-orange skin and short, coarse hair over their shoulders, neck and head but they are completely hairless from the chest down. They have triangular shark-like teeth that are yellow by default and a brown, flat, pug-like noses which become blue or red colored for adult males. They are omnivorous, preferring a combination of meats (mostly fish and insects), grains, nuts, and a few bitter fruits. Cherries, cherry blossoms and the fermented products thereof are potent intoxicants for the Hobgoblins. Hobs are a curious exception to many of the truisms about goblinoids. They do not adapt to extreme heat or cold, nor do possess anything other than darkvision. Their size varies less based on health and diet than the other goblinoids, and hobs only arise when at least one parent is itself a hob.

Most significantly of all, they have an inherent sense of hierarchy which instinctively informs an individual whether it ranks above or below each other nearby creature. This is not an official rank (though hobgoblin society and military does tend to structure itself using this ranking instinct) but rather a subjective sense of superiority or inferiority based on a wide range of subconscious cues. This sense seems to have sublimated the goblinoid penchant for xenophobia, so hobgoblins have no inherent dislike of other species, though non-hobgoblins tend to be perceived as inferior. It is speculated by some that the hobgoblin type was created artificially by some powerful, interested party. The hobgoblins certainly have the most difficult time resisting magical charms and compulsions, and they do have a long history of serving under powerful warlords and casters. Regardless, the hobs can and do form their own civilizations, including the sprawling Great Khanate.

Hobgoblins have an inborn disinterest to magic, so hobgoblin casters are rare. The largest hobgoblin society, the Great Khanate, places an emphasis on controlled martial prowess and direct combat, so most hobgoblins are fighters or samurai.
Stats: Medium Size, Move Speed 30, +2 dex, +2 con, -4 wis, darkvision only, no Heat or Cold endurance


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Dai Bakemono: Easily the most widely disliked goblinoid, the Dai Bakemono (or daibo for short) are extremely aggressive, very anti-social, and fiercely xenophobic. The daibo are slightly larger and more heavily built than a hobgoblin, and possess the morphological variety characteristic of the goblinoid race, looking like muscular, 6+ feet tall goblins. A daibo receives little sustenance from plant matter compared to other goblinoids and by choice will subsist entirely on meat. Daibo tend to congregate into packs of up to twenty individuals and then lay claim to a swath of territory of a size sufficient to feed them, either by hunting, theft, or, in a friendly goblinoid society, offerings of food. The pack will feel compelled to patrol this territory in shifts day and night, and will attempt to ambush, kill, and possibly eat any non-goblinoids that enter it.

Dai Bakemono are, to non-goblinoids, brigands, assassins, and serial killers. Even other goblinoids can find their sociopathy unnerving. The fact that a well-fed and prosperous goblin family, no matter how friendly and naturalized, can give rise to this variant has done more than any other factor to ensure goblins are pushed to the margins of society. In the overwhelming majority of non-goblinoid societies, daibo are considered "kill on sight". Since the Hobgoblin Khanate is so inclusive of non-goblinoids, it has to employ the daibos as shock troops in remote locations or drive the daibos out entirely. Only in purely goblinoid societies are daibos permitted. If fed and kept occupied, they will leave the other goblinoids alone and continue their patrols. This makes them virtually indistinguishable from a very energetic volunteer army, except one that you can't tell to stand down and one you can only barely direct. However, should the daibos run out of food and foes, they will turn on whatever goblinoids happen to annoy them, including other daibos.

Dai Bakemono is not generally considered a playable race. Those with class levels are usually rogues or rangers.
Stats: Medium Size, Move Speed 30, +2 dex, +2 con, +2 str, -6 cha


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Yes, this art is from a sprite game. Just squint and make the best of it.
O-Bakemono: The largest and strongest of the goblinoids, O-bakemono (or obo for short... yes, pronounced like the reed instrument) are physically imposing, though they rarely attack unprovoked. An obo can stand between eight and ten feet tall and weigh as much as 600 pounds. They have a large, squarish jawline that juts out noticeably and it is rare for an obo to stop eating for any length of time; they continue to chew even while sleeping. Obos primarily eat plants and their powerful jaw, large molars, and elongated digestive tract enables them to subsist on greenery too tough or nutrient-poor to support their smaller brethren. They commonly carry great clubs which they will use as weapons, but most commonly use as tools to break apart or uproot larger plants; the club itself is often a large tree limb the obo has eaten all the leaves off of.

O-Bakemono are the least intelligent and shyest of the goblinoids and generally prefer to avoid contact with non-goblinoids altogether. An obo's personality can generally be described as "placid yet child-like". They are noted for a short attention span and occasional, extreme shifts in mood. Though uncommon, it is never wise to be near an obo during a tantrum. Despite their immense size and bulk, the obo retains the innate stealth of its race, and though it isn't as dexterous as the smaller goblinoids, it is very nimble for it's size. Obos tend to live in groups of up to eight individuals who all share a shelter, usually a shallow cave or large lean-to, but they tend to forage singularly or in pairs. The members of the group will wander off if the area becomes threatening or if the food supply has been exhausted. These individuals will join or form new groups wherever they decide to inhabit next. In most civilized areas, obos are driven off and patrols are typically needed to keep them from sneaking back and eating a swath through farmed crops. Goblinoid societies typically use them as heavy laborers and immense shock troops. The same attempts have been made by other societies, but the obo is too wary of non-goblinoids to cooperate without magical coercion or goblinoid handlers.

O-Bakemono is not considered a playable race. Those with class levels are usually barbarians, though a minority become druids or rangers.
Stats: Large Size, Move Speed 40, +6 str, +4 con, -4 int, -4 cha, -2 wis
Last edited by Shatner on Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
fectin
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Post by fectin »

Is goblinoid a type or subtype?

You call out, "able to subsist on anything organic" as a goblinoid trait, but the various entries contradict that. What is accurate?
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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