Revenge of Threads that Make Us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[Bigode]

Some people (most saliently K and PhoneLobster) just don't want to play the same game as others*.

Because yeah, there were moments where like, me and K, we'd like a game that supports you having the racial ability of "Guy on a horse" ie centaur.

You however blindly accept Frank's argument that it breaks a game where anyone can in fact just fucking buy a horse.

And ongoing inability of some of us to accept that and similar claims of flavour design purity continues to (apparently, and damned if I know how) be a major impediment to Frank just going off and writing it his way anyway.

But you know. NO COMPROMISE. Disagreement with Frank? Sounds reasonable, no way, must be a time wasting TRICK! Automatically non productive!

I'm sorry to disappoint ubernoob, but no passion here: I'll just say you disagreed way too much to play the same game as Frank and those who were mostly willing to go with his premises and add their non-contradicting own as they went along (which doesn't mean we never disagreed; take the TNE threads, delete yours, K's and RC's posts and you'll still find disagreement). So it's not (and it wasn't ever - ask people if you want) disagreeing "just with Frank".

Also, you aren't an impediment to Frank writing his stuff alone in any way, and he seems to be doing it. You know what else it sounds like: Caedrus working on invite-only. And now, try telling me there aren't plausible reasons for doing so - remember, every word of ours to contradict you was a word not spent making TNE.

And "NO COMPROMISE"? To some extent, yes. In case you don't know, there's more than one game - there's no reason why I should always be expected to reach a compromise with those that should be playing different games.

Caedrus: go try to read the most egregious disagreements I allude to (and, in any case, what you call "NO COMPROMISE" is what I call "what you're doing", in case you didn't notice). Ignoring the blatantly stupid, there's the ones that simply show they don't want to play the game presented. BTW, in case anyone wonders/whines at "presented by Frank, so you're his bitch!1!", Sumeru has support from others as default setting, the goal of being as non-European as possible was (initially) a pretty solid point of agreement, and, if you think writing he most material shouldn't give the most control, you're fvcking retarded.

OK, maybe a bit of passion. Probably won't make ubernoob happy though.

[ubernoob]

Caedrus, you don't find it odd at all that at least three separate people took a look at your work and said, "Hey! That's Frank's! Where's your citation?"

You don't find that odd at all?

I'm not aware of these "at least three seperate people," nor what work you're referring to because you refuse to actually reference anything whatsoever. I find that exceedingly odd. If such an issue existed, it should be a simple matter to link to it, link to a thread by Frank, and say "hey, these are the same." But you won't do that.

Ubernoob/Archerpwr/TheGodhead
Mister Sinister
Frank Trollman

All three of the above posters identified Frank's work word for word without any reference to him. Oddly enough, Frank Trollman is the only one that did not feel this was a problem.

[Caedrus]

All three of the above posters identified Frank's work word for word without any reference to him. Oddly enough, Frank Trollman is the only one that did not feel this was a problem.

Lovely, care to point it out to me so I can identify it? Again, if you were telling the truth, then it would be a simple matter to link to the material, link to Frank's material, and say "hey, this is the same." But you won't do that. Why is that?

Especially considering that you angrily threatened to "take others with you" right after you got banned from my site for lying to my face yet again, it makes things very suspect. Not to mention that I didn't lose anyone when you left the project nor did you walk away (you were banned, you didn't leave), despite your claims, demonstrating a lie you've already made right here on this board about me, my friends, and my project.

Anyone here would be a fool to give any credence whatsoever to these claims without proof, particularly considering that if it were remotely true, proof would be *very* easy to come by. And if no one's going to put forth any evidence, I'd like to call this accusation "busted" and move on with my life. I don't do this for money, I make games for fun, and this is a headache I sure as hell don't need. The fact that he claims that I copied something "word for word" but cannot actually produce such a post pretty handily indicates that it's just a bald-faced lie. Done.

[The Other Caedrus]

Please excuse this slightly off-topic post.

For those of you who may be under the impression that Caedrus on this forum is the same Caedrus as on the BG & CO Foums, this is not the case.

I have constructed this account to simply state that we are seperate entities.

No disrespect is implied to any parties.

Thank you for your attention.

[ubernoob]

All three of the above posters identified Frank's work word for word without any reference to him. Oddly enough, Frank Trollman is the only one that did not feel this was a problem.

Lovely, care to point it out to me so I can identify it? Again, if you were telling the truth, then it would be a simple matter to link to the material, link to Frank's material, and say "hey, this is the same." But you won't do that. Why is that?

Especially considering that you angrily threatened to "take others with you" right after you got banned from my site for lying to my face yet again, it makes things very suspect. Not to mention that I didn't lose anyone when you left the project nor did you walk away (you were banned, you didn't leave), despite your claims, demonstrating a lie you've already made right here on this board about me, my friends, and my project.

Anyone here would be a fool to give any credence whatsoever to these claims without proof, particularly considering that if it were remotely true, proof would be *very* easy to come by. And if no one's going to put forth any evidence, I'd like to call this accusation "busted" and move on with my life. I don't do this for money, I make games for fun, and this is a headache I sure as hell don't need.

You're honestly going to tell me someone can mistake Frank's writing style for yours? Dude, Frank has one of the most recognizable styles on the net. I identified it by writing style. I had to look up the threads after my suspicion was raised.

It was the writing style. That means you HAD to have cut/paste.

[ubernoob]

Please excuse this slightly off-topic post.

For those of you who may be under the impression that Caedrus on this forum is the same Caedrus as on the BG & CO Foums, this is not the case.

I have constructed this account to simply state that we are seperate entities.

No disrespect is implied to any parties.

Thank you for your attention.

Thank god. That was confusing me to all hell.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Quick question: if there are no women on the internet, where the fuck are all the yaoi and visually scarring cosplayer photos coming from?

There's no man, no matter how gay, who wouldn't be repulsed--much less AROUSED--at some of the horrifying crap that goes on in your typical slash fic. I mean, M-Preg? That kind of shit would turn Barney Frank heterosexual for a few hours.

[Caedrus]

You're honestly going to tell me someone can mistake Frank's writing style for yours? Dude, Frank has one of the most recognizable styles on the net. I identified it by writing style. I had to look up the threads after my suspicion was raised.

It was the writing style. That means you HAD to have cut/paste.

1: Still no reference to any offending post, likely because it does not exist.
2: You can cut/paste a writing style? How exactly does that work?
3: Having a similar writing style or emulating a writing style is "stealing material"? Geez, you'd better start prosecuting every writing student across the country. You'd make a killing.

I think it's pretty clear that this is bullshit by now, please leave me alone now Ubernoob.

Please excuse this slightly off-topic post.

For those of you who may be under the impression that Caedrus on this forum is the same Caedrus as on the BG & CO Foums, this is not the case.

I have constructed this account to simply state that we are seperate entities.

No disrespect is implied to any parties.

Thank you for your attention.

Thank god. That was confusing me to all hell.

No it wasn't; I told you MONTHS ago that that guy wasn't me.

[ubernoob]

You're honestly going to tell me someone can mistake Frank's writing style for yours? Dude, Frank has one of the most recognizable styles on the net. I identified it by writing style. I had to look up the threads after my suspicion was raised.

It was the writing style. That means you HAD to have cut/paste.

1: Still no reference to any offending post.

Where are your citations?

2: You can cut/paste a writing style? How exactly does that work?

No. That means it was word for word Frank's stuff. Therefore it must have been copy/paste. Even if you simply paraphrased I wouldn't have picked up on the style. Your style is that divergent that I wouldn't have thought to dig around the TNE threads using Ctr F with a whole line of text.

3: Having a similar writing style or emulating a writing style is "stealing material"?

I think it's pretty clear that this is bullshit by now, please leave me alone now Ubernoob.

Similar my ass. Word for word lifted from the TNE threads.

Now, since you banned me from your little private forum I can't exactly go back to find specifics. However, my word is better than yours, so I don't have to put up with this bullshit.

Good day, kind sir.

[Bigode]

You're honestly going to tell me someone can mistake Frank's writing style for yours? Dude, Frank has one of the most recognizable styles on the net. I identified it by writing style. I had to look up the threads after my suspicion was raised.

It was the writing style. That means you HAD to have cut/paste.

Not that I'm choosing someone to believe, but you keep saying "it" without showing "it". And if "it" ended under Frank's eyes, I suppose the pretense of secrecy went outta the window. So why aren't you posting "it" after the author himself daring you to?

EDIT: simuposted. Not even able to delete now, if it was the case.

[ubernoob]

You're honestly going to tell me someone can mistake Frank's writing style for yours? Dude, Frank has one of the most recognizable styles on the net. I identified it by writing style. I had to look up the threads after my suspicion was raised.

It was the writing style. That means you HAD to have cut/paste.

Not that I'm choosing someone to believe, but you keep saying "it" without showing "it". And if "it" ended under Frank's eyes, I suppose the pretense of secrecy went outta the window. So why aren't you posting "it" after the author himself daring you to?

See above about private forum.

[Caedrus]

Where are your citations?

Citations for what?

No. That means it was word for word Frank's stuff. Therefore it must have been copy/paste.

Then you should be able to show us the offending post, if it exists.

Now, since you banned me from your little private forum I can't exactly go back to find specifics.

So how is it that you have been presenting said "offending post" to people who don't have access to my boards? You were banned months ago. In fact, if the offending post existed, and you had decided to show it to other people, there must have been some manner of copy made that they could have seen. Therefore, being banned should have no effect whatsoever on your ability to present proof.

Therefore, you should easily be able to produce, as Bigode said, *it.* Actually, if you like, I will invite a neutral arbiter, such as Bigode, to have access to my site, look it over for anything that's "word for word Frank's work," and have him post it up. Heck, I will have Silver print out the moderation and administration and system logs so you can see if I ever deleted any of my posts or edited any within the last... I don't know, few months that I've been away. Your statements are false, and therefore I have absolutely nothing to hide.

my word is better than yours

Does anyone here actually buy this tripe? What, you have more posts than me, so you can say I committed murder and it must be true with no evidence whatsoever?

[ubernoob]

Where are your citations?

Citations for what?

Hell if I care. You were the one that brought citations into this. If you want citations you should be able to bring some yourself.

No. That means it was word for word Frank's stuff. Therefore it must have been copy/paste.

Then you should be able to show us the offending post.

Again, private forum.

Now, since you banned me from your little private forum I can't exactly go back to find specifics.

So how is it that you have been presenting said "offending post" to people who don't have access to my boards? You were banned months ago.

Perhaps Frank saw it months ago and happens to value a good game over intellectual property? Heck, I'm pretty sure the password on that account is Frank or something.

my word is better than yours

Does anyone here actually buy this tripe?

I don't know. Do they?

[Bigode]

See above about private forum.

See my edit.

1: Still no reference to any offending post, likely because it does not exist.
2: You can cut/paste a writing style? How exactly does that work?
3: Having a similar writing style or emulating a writing style is "stealing material"? Geez, you'd better start prosecuting every writing student across the country. You'd make a killing.

Stop being retarded. Seriously, I don't care if the reason's externally-induced lack of sleep, item 2 here was just retarded, and I'd be hard-pressed to believe that anyone actually needed ubernoob's subsequent explanation. So one might argue (if you're gonna use the lack of sleep defense at some later point) you aren't in condition to discuss anything right now. Also, need I remind you how similar happened more than once in this exact forum?

OK, some ubernoob retardation too. Citation from Caedrus? How about "burden on accusation"? That said, the ban might make things difficult.

[Caedrus]

Where are your citations?

Citations for what?

Hell if I care. You were the one that brought citations into this. If you want citations you should be able to bring some yourself.

Can someone explain what the hell he is talking about to me? What the heck is he expecting me to cite?

As Bigode said, burden on accusation.

[ubernoob]

Citations for what?

Hell if I care. You were the one that brought citations into this. If you want citations you should be able to bring some yourself.

Can someone explain what the hell he is talking about to me? What the heck is he expecting me to cite?

Forest for trees much?

If you want to exonerate yourself you should make an effort to prove you are wronged. When it comes to PR the default is guilty until proven innocent. I'd think someone of your intellect would know basic social theory.

[Caedrus]

If you want to exonerate yourself you should make an effort to prove you are wronged.

And I have done so. I have cited the conspicuous lack of evidence on your part, offered to allow an arbiter to look through my posts on my private site as well as dig up logs of our last conversations before I banned you where you threatened me (though I'd rather not resort to that sort of ugliness), and given you a motive. You have presented... nothing, except for an accusation. I'd say that's a pretty damn strong case in my favor. In fact, if this were an IRL case, you'd never make it to trial and I'd sue you for slander.

[ubernoob]

If you want to exonerate yourself you should make an effort to prove you are wronged.

And I have done so. I have cited the complete lack of evidence, offered to allow an arbiter to look through my posts, and given you a motive. You have presented... nothing, except for an accusation.

Except y'know the fact that all the "evidence" is in your private little forum. Funny that. Not guilty by lack of a warrant even though you have three reputable eye witnesses at least.

Do I really have to track down who is still on the project? You know I pull strings better than you, so there's no way you can actually keep me out forever.

Your logic is weak.

[Maxus]

Whether something is a feat, a class feature, a racial trait, an item effect, or a spell, they are all either abilities or bonuses. The wrapping/mechanics define when a character can get them, but it's the ability itself, in whatever form, which defines what it does.

Whether something provides an ability or bonus largely tepends on whether it allows the character to do something that over characters cannot do, or provides a bonus/better efficiency rate to doing something any character can do already.

Feats like Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Spring Attack are all ability feats because they all provide something a character cannot do. Don't think that Combat Expertise provides a bonus/better efficiency rate - Fighting Defensively is something different to Combat Expertise, and the two stack.

It's feats like these that FT & K advocate should be free for all characters. They should be open actions that any character can do. Some forms of this argument include the idea of prerequisites, for various reasons, before they become open: such as BAB +1 or Str 13+.

By advocating this freedom, feats that provide the capacity to do something new that other characters stop being feats, but rather in-built player options like any other action. This means that feats can only be bonuses/better efficiency rates, because these are the only types of feat that remain feats.

This is the general case scenario. FT & K may have exceptions and specifications - they may be referring only to feats. But what is it that makes a feat a feat? If you suddenly created a class that gave an ability identical to Power Attack or some other ability-providing feat, wouldn't FT & K argue that it should be free, and not a class feature. Thus, the qualifier of feat can not be important here, unless this is a subtle way of recomending that the Feat System be done away with completely. Following on from this, the trapping of an ability are not important, unless you think that Power Attack as a spell, racial trait, or item is different from feats.

Feats are not free. They take feat slots, which are choices or options that a player makes to choose what their character is capable of. Otherwise, these options remained closed off to the player.

There may be some validity to the idea that some feats that provide abilities should be free, and others should remain feats, but this is basically a case of special pleading for every single feat which provides an ability to see if it should remain a feat or not. Following this, you have the same with Classes, Races, Spells, Items, and so forth. What is open to all, and what is closed and needs a choice to be made. The Legend of Zelda Roleplaying Game has already made great efforts into this.

However, in the general sense, you cannot have both ideologies in force at the same time, without prioritizing just how much the ideology holds true for a given situation. Ultimately, you cannot create anything that allows a character to do something without also defining in principle who cannot do that same thing. All of those examples not of of what the relevent class can do, but also what non-members of that class cannot do.

BTW, some of those do not actually provide an ability. Acrobatic Flair, for example, negates penalties for doing something that any character can try with the Balance and/or Tumble skills.

Of course, enough of FT & K. It's all subjective, because some people might want everyone to be able to Power Attack, Spring Attack, Rapid Shot, or whatever feat, class feature, racial trait, or item or what not. Others do not. The trick is to find the balance.

I have no idea what caused this rant.

I mean, I posted a bunch of stuff from Tome Classes as an example of Abilities Versus Numbers, and someone commented that Parry Magic is similar to an ability they have for a Prestige Class they wrote, and then this happens.

[Caedrus]

Your logic is weak.

Because, you know, "My word is better than yours" is such a crushing logical argument from you.

[ckafrica]

Caedrus: in all fairness, you would be subpoenaed, were this this a court case, for records of the forum with witnesses saying I saw X incriminating evidence.

If you honestly want to show there is nothing Frank wrote that wasn't attributed (even though frank doesn't care) that you wold allow people to look at it and see.

[PhoneLobster]

I'm sorry to disappoint ubernoob, but no passion here

You see that lack of passion, and your amorphous pointless post style that fails to lay out any firm provable or even arguable claims is why YOU don't get fans, however transitory or derisive.

Seriously, I just read your whole "I will dispassionately disagree with Phone Lobster" post.

I was disappointed by your failure to write anything even remotely worth responding to. I mean I had to find the whole "not satisfying the passion fan base" angle before I could even manage to bother with THIS response.

[Caedrus]

Caedrus: in all fairness, you would be subpoenaed, were this this a court case, for records of the forum with witnesses saying I saw X incriminating evidence.

This isn't actually true at all. In a real court case, there would be no basis to bring a case about, because the accuser has no claim. You have to claim that *something* was plagiarized, but the accuser has refused to even say what was taken. It's like saying they'd give out a warrant to search your house if someone accuses you of theft, but won't say what was stolen! Regardless, I freely offered those records, as you might recall.

Actually, if you like, I will invite a neutral arbiter, such as Bigode, to have access to my site, look it over for anything that's "word for word Frank's work," and have him post it up.

you wold allow people to look at it and see.

Did you not see my previous posts? I invited a neutral arbiter to look at my site, even offerring to have Silver Dragon print out the administration log to demonstrate I hadn't deleted or edited anything.

Again:

Actually, if you like, I will invite a neutral arbiter, such as Bigode, to have access to my site, look it over for anything that's "word for word Frank's work," and have him post it up.

[Leress]

I would be this neutral observer, mainly just to get this over with and getting back to Maxus's thread of fail.

Now Uber, I like to know specifically what you remember that was taken.


@Maxus:

I have a feeling since it has Frank and K's name on it, you are already two strikes going into it.

EDIT:Okay, just when back on DaVane's thread. Maxus since you've had to most time with this supplement, does it seem like there are many ways any of the base classes could do lot to shine in non-combat situations?

Also someone need to tell her that if 80% of the game is about combat then there is a fair chance that it will be used the most, definitely when it is based off a video game series which were only puzzles, gopher quests and face stabbings (something all at the same time)

That's pretty much all the ideologies, but it differs somewhat from the ideologies of D&D. Characters are not expected to be able to do something during combat, and something outside of combat, as this provides too much emphasis on combat. Characters with little to do during combat are less inclined to seek such solutions, but rather favour their strengths, be it intelligent use of knowledge, stealth, or whatever.

No, shit people who are playing the game...want to play the game. The don't want to sit around and do nothing when some or everyone else is having "supper-happy-funtime" whether or not it's in combat or out of it.

Also Maxus, if someone (which good grasp of the D20 rules and of course love of Zelda) wanted to play the game. How easy is it for them to actually start playing the game? If it's not easy to transition into people will just rip that page out of the book. (That's what I'm see about the variable square system)

[ubernoob]

I would be this neutral observer, mainly just to get this over with and getting back to Maxus's thread of fail.

Now Uber, I like to know specifically what you remember that was taken.

I remember seeing at least 3 of Frank's essays. The only specific ones I'm pulling to mind is Frank's essay about R/P/S classes and his discussion on movement areas over squares.

I'd love to get more specific, but it has literally been months and odds are that OW4 has deleted or modified the posts by now.