Revenge of Threads that Make Us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[Bigode]

Post subject to asynchronicity due to being long and made amid RL worries (not grave).

my word is better than yours

Does anyone here actually buy this tripe?

I don't know. Do they?

Nope. Proof:[quote="Retardation != Baiting", PM by ubernoob]That is all. There's a method to my madness.[/quote](I'm not taking Caedrus' side, and I have what I'd call good reason to refrain from calling myself an ally of his, but damn you for thinking I'd let this slip - the delay in posting was purely because I was busy having an enjoyable RL conversation amidst a couple of serious issues, in an hour where people expect me to sleep.) In the context of:

OK, some ubernoob retardation too. Citation from Caedrus? How about "burden on accusation"? That said, the ban might make things difficult.

If anyone cares, I'm totally not taking sides until I see something that might be called proof (and I don't think it's even possible to produce any at this point), but, while I'd label Frank as trustworthy, all I can say on how little I value ubernoob's word's that when I found out Sinister worked with him, a little bit of respect might have been lost. Sinister: no problem with you and no offense to you actually intended (though perhaps done anyway), I intend to keep in touch, but I'm fairly sure you've some bad company at least.

Your logic is weak.

Let's just say that's been your standard bait over multiple forums. It grows weak from excess of use, you know.

Therefore, you should easily be able to produce, as Bigode said, *it.* Actually, if you like, I will invite a neutral arbiter, such as Bigode, to have access to my site, look it over for anything that's "word for word Frank's work," and have him post it up. Heck, I will have Silver print out the moderation and administration and system logs so you can see if I ever deleted any of my posts or edited any within the last... I don't know, few months that I've been away. Your statements are false, and therefore I have absolutely nothing to hide.

I'm game, though, as I said to Caedrus personally, I don't find it likely for it to produce unquestionable proofs for either side - while I'd like to, I'll be honest: I wanna look at Caedrus et al's stuff. Also: all mentions to my name on this post were made on post-post (damn, that was bad) editing. As have been most of Caedrus posts on TGD: edited shortly after posting, and often edited over 10 times at some later point. So I'd advise you Caedrus to stop doing that, because it makes it look like you've ulterior motive even if/when you don't. Also: remember that the "accusation" was made by Frank, so there's no good reason why ubernoob would have a backup copy of the excerpt after being banned.

You see that lack of passion, and your amorphous pointless post style that fails to lay out any firm provable or even arguable claims is why YOU don't get fans, however transitory or derisive.

Seriously, I just read your whole "I will dispassionately disagree with Phone Lobster" post.

I was disappointed by your failure to write anything even remotely worth responding to. I mean I had to find the whole "not satisfying the passion fan base" angle before I could even manage to bother with THIS response.

My posting style's about getting actual stuff done, which you might recall you never did to any Denizen's sight. I don't want fans and don't think they're good for anything (see, the only people good for Frank are the ones that would be awesome in their own anyway - hint: some of them didn't even use to play D&D). If you won't reply to me, that might be good in the end: read through, especially now that I'm with just as much in my plate as I can handle (remember, included RL stuff too).

[JonSetanta]

What is this shit.. I leave for a while and this happens.

[Bigode]

What is this shit.. I leave for a while and this happens.

Don't leave. Actually, "don't come" might be a saner answer, and I actually mean to this thread: it was full of hilarious stupidity from significantly before Caedrus/OW4 was involved ...

[Judging__Eagle]

Twin tireless typists tempt this townie to throw this thread to the true turf that this thread touches.

This thread.


As much as this is derivavtive....


Srsly guys

u guys

srsly.

I have no idea what either person is saying. At the very least, a 4-channer is succint in their fappage, sage-ing, aknowledging of winning, giving of internets or asking of torrents plz.

[Caedrus]

Well, I let Bigode onto my site, gave him full moderator access, let him look over not only the threads and posts but the moderator logs and everything to confirm I didn't alter anything after Ubernoob's banning, and, quote:

(10:17:41 PM): Well, then, done and done.
(10:17:49 PM): Proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Ubernoob is lying. Issue resolved.

[ubernoob]

Well, I let Bigode onto my site, gave him full moderator access, let him look over not only the threads and posts but the moderator logs and everything to confirm I didn't alter anything after Ubernoob's banning, and, quote:

(10:17:41 PM): Well, then, done and done.
(10:17:49 PM): Proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Ubernoob is lying. Issue resolved.

I find it *very* hard to believe that someone can read through over two months of threads in such a short span of time.

Also, get over your god damned martyr complex. Nobody actually cares about you.

[Judging__Eagle]

OWA, Why not just let the person who supposedly wrote what you supposedly used read it?

I don't think that I've ever seen Frank ever engage in a campaign of anything aside from.... "ignoring" those with which he has come to irreconcilable differences with.

WoTC and Paizo really stick out, as forums that he doesn't bother with IIRC.

Although I'm sure that Frank has tried to give his own knowledge of how math should be used to design a system, not some other system, such as "wishing and hoping" that you create a good game system.

In any case, that's my take.

If/when Bigode claims the same as you've posted; eh, I really don't care what's going on, except as an moral/intellectual problem.

[Koumei]

It has indeed just become a mixture of confusing, boring and fail. Again, it'd be better if it were a RL debate because then someone would hit someone with a chair and there'd be a fight for the rest of us to watch.

[Kaelik]

Am I the only one that thinks "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt" is about the least clear statement that could be made?

I mean, beyond reasonable doubt makes it sound like someone is guilty, and given the conversation so far, I'd think that OWA being "guilty" of teh stealing is at least as valid an interpretation as Frank being "guilty" of teh baseless accusation that damaged OWA's otherwise spotless cred.

[Caedrus]

OWA, Why not just let the person who supposedly wrote what you supposedly used read it?

I would, but he doesn't respond. Leress hasn't followed up on his offer either.

[JonSetanta]

What is this shit.. I leave for a while and this happens.

Don't leave. Actually, "don't come" might be a saner answer, and I actually mean to this thread: it was full of hilarious stupidity from significantly before Caedrus/OW4 was involved ...

No, I meant that with finals coming, 2 exams, 2 research papers, an ill girlfriend (her gallbladder has stopped working months ago, surgery next week.. finally) and a drunken weekend I'll say that I just didn't have time to check in on TGD.

[Username17]

In case anyone cares, Caedrus never offered to allow me to see his secret forum. The important thing though is that I don't care. OW4 exploding over meaningless crap like this is why I would never work with him.

---

On to more productive hilarity:

Da Vane's rant is that an option to get a raw numeric bonus is an "ability" that needs to be classified as an "ability" rather than a "bonus" to be classified as a "bonus." So the fact that it has at least as much impact on the RNG as a continuous bonus should have no impact on how we classify it - if you choose whether to utilize it or not it needs to be classed as an Ability.

Therefore he claims that K and my classification of Expertise as being sufficiently uninteresting that everyone should just do it at the appropriate levels and reserve "abilities" for things that actually do something is inappropriate. And that by extension all of our work on all projects was faulty and should not be used.

---

In other news: K is no longer working on this or any RPG project, having abandoned game writing to focus on school.

-Username17

[Caedrus]

In case anyone cares, Caedrus never offered to allow me to see his secret forum.[/i]

And I never said I did. I said I would offer, if you were responding to this conversation, which you were not. I have since shown it to both Leress and Bigode, and they see no trace of any of your work. Frankly, though, I might have said that I would extend that offer in haste; you are very clearly not a neutral party, because you are the one claiming credit for my work.

The important thing though is that I don't care. OW4 exploding over meaningless crap like this is why I would never work with him.

Except I don't give a shit if you care, and to me it's anything but nothing. You claimed credit for MY work, claiming that the majority of what I have written was somehow the result of your labors. Every bit of effort I put into my work, not to mention the efforts of everyone who worked with me, you go ahead and say "Oh yeah, it was really all me." And some people actually do feel that some jackass taking credit for their work matters. I'm not going to let you get away with taking credit for my work or the work of my friends, whether you claim that your taking credit for my work "matters" or not.

[Leress]

Frank: What, specifically, was taken that you recognize as your work?

[JonSetanta]

In other news: K is no longer working on this or any RPG project, having abandoned game writing to focus on school.

Damn...

[PhoneLobster]

My posting style's about getting actual stuff done, which you might recall you never did to any Denizen's sight.

No, your posting style is just rambling border line Captain Bleach passive aggressive verbal diarrhoea.

And like I said last time you (or someone very much like you, so same thing) pulled the "what do you contribute" line I can name you three major concepts I have championed or expounded upon here abouts, sometimes against Frank, that seem to have found their way into TNE or at least TNE consideration.

Last time I made the offer you (or your incestuous pod brother, whatever) squeeled like a pig and backed off from asking what I was blathering on about like the craven coward you are/he is.

In the mean time I'll simply suggest that the vigorous debate of actual points of contention offered by people like me, K, Crissa, and others in the "non productive" threads you mention is some of the most productive stuff on this site, as opposed to you constantly attempting to lick Frank's TNE balls and fight off all perceived threats to your not altogether healthy relationship like some kind of small spoilt dog that thinks it's owner is it's mate.

[Lago PARANOIA]

In the mean time I'll simply suggest that the vigorous debate of actual points of contention offered by people like me, K, Crissa, and others in the "non productive" threads you mention is some of the most productive stuff on this site, as opposed to you constantly attempting to lick Frank's TNE balls and fight off all perceived threats to your not altogether healthy relationship like some kind of small spoilt dog that thinks it's owner is it's mate.

PhoneLobster, don't try to pull this superiority shit.

You're the biggest veteran dick on this forums. Calm your ass down.

[Prak]

my word is better than yours

Does anyone here actually buy this tripe? What, you have more posts than me, so you can say I committed murder and it must be true with no evidence whatsoever?

Honestly, the very fact that three people have accused you of plagiarism makes his word better than yours in my sight.

Ubernoob is lying. Issue resolved.

Wow, Ubernoob, Mister Sinister AND Frank are lying? Good grief, who's the ringleader of this conspiracy to smear your good name, Mittins, the cat down the street?

[Judging__Eagle]

The question for De Vane is this then:

"Can you count the number of people who have actually used your rules in a real, live, D&D game?"

Really, the only reason that I'm for Frank's stuff, is that it fucking works.

I know fourteen different people that have used "tome" material in games that I have either run or been a fellow-player in. This isn't including online play.

Several of them have made multiple and different characters, so the amount of class//race//feat combinations tested is probably more than 14.

However things like Monk and Barbarian were group favorites, so 14 different classes weren't tested (notabley the Samurai, Knight and Thief Acrobat) and the "monsters as players" material was used many times.

Frank and K used a good mix of 1) re-using already known abilities and 2) stripping down stupid/byzantine things that I had already learned (like grappling), and made it easier.

If they had simply added new (bullshit) mechanics, then I probably would have had the same "glazed eyes" sensation that I nearly always seemed to get when reading the retarded PEACH posts in the WoTC "Classes and Stupidity" forum.

If this stuff hadn't been easy enough for me to understand instantly, it wouldn't have been easy to show to a complete novice (never played any RPG, hardly ever played video games, thought that we were crazy when we were gaming; asking if she wanted to be a Vampire with flying horsie-eagle pets made her change her mind however), and I wouldn't have used it.

The novice in question ended up playing a Vampiress Summoner. Which honestly, was very easy to create as a character. Her 24-hour summon was replaced with a Quasit, since the player asked "this cute little demon guy, can I have him as my pet?", and honestly it's combat value was equivalent to a hippogriff that she could have gotten instead.

She really enjoyed her character very much, her summons were able to block the Wyverns sent after the party, and then were able to help the rogue flank them.

She then played an Ogre barbarian. My own barbarian used her character as protection between blitz-runs, she just liked to cut things in half with her greatsword.

The reason she kept playing was that it was 1) logical/easy to understand and 2) allowed her to do things that were just as important as the wizard casting webs and deep slumbers.


In any case, how long has that LoZ d20 been in development? Has anyone even played it? Or is it a giant forum circle-jerk over the dubious awesome of their system?

Finally: I'm a rambling moron.

[PhoneLobster]

PhoneLobster, don't try to pull this superiority shit.

I'll pull superiority shit against the likes of Bigode anytime I feel like it.

You're the biggest veteran dick on this forums. Calm your ass down.

I'd never think to try and take that title from Frank or RC.

[Prak]

oh for fucks sake! Can't you boys play nice?

[Judging__Eagle]

/waves e-peen around

NO!

Actually, the one thing I like about this place is that we call each other out on BS, and we expect each other to do so.

We don't however tend to keep stupid WoTC-style vendettas against each other, and most of us are willing to make massive mental leaps in order to re-examine something or be willing to toss out the crap that exists and has been fed to us.

For me, it was that I knew something was wrong in D&D, but, knowing that I didn't know didn't really help, and I know that I didn't want to "just make houserules up" because that was just a slipperly slope. Back then I knew that things weren't right, but I didn't know what specifically was wrong.

When I figured it out, I pretty much killed a campaign where my character was one of the top two most effective characters. Mostly because I was getting upset that the other players weren't enjoying their characters, and I was a player not the DM.

Then again.... the DM might have played the game ever since the 3 little pamphlets, but in my opinion he really needed to go a long way before he could live up to his own self-important reputation as a "roleplayer."

I felt that the high school player whose Warforged fighter ate chairs when he (the player) was bored was a better roleplayer than the grongad who liked to roll bards.

[Draco_Argentum]

Hopefully I can cut through the stupid here.

Maxus, Da Vane hates Frank with a passion from several years back. Apparently she nursed the grudge the whole time. You can largely assume that you are wasting your time entirely by continuing to post at Zd20. Guilt by association.

[Orion]

Frank -- I believe you, but I'm with Caedrus. Regardless of how unimportant it is, you owe him an explanation if you make an accusation of that kind.

PhoneLobster -- you have in fact been extremely productive to the site. Not necessarily because your ideas have been adopted on a large scale by our community, but because you have often been a very good devils advocate who forced us to think more carefully about issues. I've ultimately sided with Frank on most of your arguments with him, but I'm really glad those arguments happened.

That said, you do have a tendency to spiral off into crazy-town from time to time. This is one of those times; I'd just let it go.

Bigode: Please lay off PhoneLobster. He's been the target of a lot of undeserved hostility lately. It was weird and wrong of him to bust out the comment about attracting fans, but neither of you is helping anything.

[Bigode]

In case anyone wonders about my absence when Caedrus made his claim: at first, I was busy discussing IRL stuff such as avoiding a (false) accusation of corruption of minors or however you call it in English; then, the computer I was using went crazy (featuring the slowest transfer rate I've ever seen, as Caedrus himself saw); then, it crashed, the owner of the LAN house woke up (yeah, I spent the night "there" - I'm back now for a while) and friendly (no irony here) booted me (without real conditions for saving stuff, since getting things to work would, and did, indeed take a lot of time) due to needing ... more sleep (the first was unintended). End result: around when Caedrus made his claim of the matter being settled, I was going home without being able to say much.

The other story: indeed, I was made a moderator. Way before the crash, I backed up the entirety of the forum, as well as the moderator logs. Since it seems no change OW4 might've made prior to ubernoob's banning actually matters: there's one IP ban (no username mentioned) at August 26 which one might deduce to be him (Any disagreement?). Since then, there's only one deleted post (by OW4) in a thread not started by him - I have the title, but won't mention it to see if anyone has a claim as to why/how that post would contain the entirety of the supposedly copied material. The thread about skills doesn't have anything other than a credited quote of Frank.

The "quote" he provided, though, isn't exactly a quote for those who might care: first, those words weren't said by me but by him. Second, and that might off-topic (pardon my ignorance), I didn't know there was an AIM-Windows Live Messenger interface, because I don't even have an AIM account (though that'd be well-explained by the mere existance of said interface). Third, those words of his weren't disagreed at the chat more because I didn't find it relevant than because than anything else: as both of us alluded, there's the possibility of the moderator logs having been tampered with (OW4 claims to have no knowledge of how to do that, and I've no knowledge of how hard it is - anyone who might know's welcome to clarify).

However, the moderator logs themselves, if taken as evidence, are pretty supporting of him. One thing that'd help would be if Frank/ubernoob mentioned the title of the thread there, the title of the thread here from where stuff was allegedly taken, or whipped out an actual (not necessarily even 100% accurate should be needed, but the current mentions have no substance at all, honestly) paraphrase of the referred stuff.

I didn't read all threads at that time more because I didn't feel I had reason to try than because I couldn't (since I could save them). However I backed them up and will do so at some later time.

---

No, your posting style is just rambling border line Captain Bleach passive aggressive verbal diarrhoea.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The first other than Lobster to feel similarly, please raise your hand.

And like I said last time you (or someone very much like you, so same thing) pulled the "what do you contribute" line I can name you three major concepts I have championed or expounded upon here abouts, sometimes against Frank, that seem to have found their way into TNE or at least TNE consideration.

It was the only person (here, at least) to be a lot like me: that is, me. Of course, there wasn't a single rule or usable material in those, and your own system/houserules (not sure) supposedly exist but never saw daylight.

Last time I made the offer you (or your incestuous pod brother, whatever) squeeled like a pig and backed off from asking what I was blathering on about like the craven coward you are/he is.

I don't even remember where that exchange was at this point. I'm game for settling it, and seeing if I really did that (hard to believe, you know).

In the mean time I'll simply suggest that the vigorous debate of actual points of contention offered by people like me, K, Crissa, and others in the "non productive" threads you mention is some of the most productive stuff on this site, as opposed to you constantly attempting to lick Frank's TNE balls and fight off all perceived threats to your not altogether healthy relationship like some kind of small spoilt dog that thinks it's owner is it's mate.

Relationship? Yeah, like I even use much of his stuff. As for your points, how about you go read them and find that a lot aren't the same game as had been conceived? But no, you're retarded enough to think there must be one game, and it must cater to you ...

I'll pull superiority shit against the likes of Bigode anytime I feel like it.

And failure'll be always happy to greet you.

I'd never think to try and take that title from Frank or RC.

RC? Dick? Since when? Frank, you know can write rules and explanations that actually do the job; you're the biggest dick instead of the most awesome because ... you can't.

We don't however tend to keep stupid WoTC-style vendettas against each other, and most of us are willing to make massive mental leaps in order to re-examine something or be willing to toss out the crap that exists and has been fed to us.

I thought we kept plenty of personal vendettas but just weren't stupid enough to mistake them for actual debatable arguments in themselves (as done at WotC).

Bigode: Please lay off PhoneLobster. He's been the target of a lot of undeserved hostility lately. It was weird and wrong of him to bust out the comment about attracting fans, but neither of you is helping anything.

Undeserved? Do you even read what Lobster says (though I'm talking more about MPSIMS in that)? And, devil's advocate? There have been some that actually care not to weave ad-hominems in half of what they write. And this thread is for anything except help anything AFAICT, so ... isn't that the point? I'm having plenty laughter, at last, and hope not to be the only one: let's face it, Lobster himself's probably getting kicks off his (so-called) superiority. Also, see quote above.