Revenge of Threads that Make Us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[Username17]

Frank -- I believe you, but I'm with Caedrus. Regardless of how unimportant it is, you owe him an explanation if you make an accusation of that kind.

No. I genuinely don't owe him a god damned thing, because I did not accuse him of anything. It's his big unreleased master work of ultimate secrecy. It's not released, so there literally can't be any plagarism or anything. What I saw was literally months ago, and some people sent me questions as to whether I was OK with him using my text, and asking if he had contacted me about it. No he hadn't, and still has not, but I don't care. I gave standing permission long ago for people to use my text for anything they care to use it for.

There's nothing to forgive here except that Caedrus is throwing around wild temper tantrums about literally nothing. Having him rant about how if I can't produce a transcript from his super secret vault that he hasn't given me a passcode to and which I have literally been in 6 countries since glancing at or my "accusation" doesn't hold water is bullshit, because there's no accusation.

There is only one thing I can do for him, and as a medic, I will do my duty. I'm going to call OW4 a Wambulance:


-Username17

[Judging__Eagle]

Bigode,

I guess that's just me.

That or I'm boring enough that no one has felt a need to tell me that I'm an idiot. That or I've forgotten the scathing post(s) that [Poster] made?

I've been known to be sharp enough to cut people, but I doubt that I'm the sharpest knife in the drawer. I tend to overlook shit all the time. Maybe I'm the meat tenderizer in the drawer?


In any case, we don't let festering nerdrage carry from one disagreement carry over into others. If we disagree with political views or sexual orientation, it doesn't mean that we haven't agreed that certain things are bad for game play.

This sort of reminds me of the crazy lawyer that defended Dr. Zoidberg in a Futurama. The lawyer drew more fire from the jury and porsecution than Zoidberg himself did. The lawyer was a satanic polygamist, married to both men and women.

Around here we don't care if you have 4 wives and/or 2 husbands, or if you want a Satanic funeral. All that we care about is your game design.

[virgil]

Did Frank ever say that stuff he saw that was his wasn't attributed to him (and how thoroughly did he read it)? Also, I don't recall seeing people demanding Frank produce proof, but to actually say what he took (did he respond)?

[shau]

Ahh internet drama. This is even better than the old fighter vs. caster WOTC threads.

While we are all confessing how we ripped off Frank, I have to admit I find myself using a lot of his phrases. In one of my law classes I am known as the "stab in the face" guy.

[Maxus]

Ahh internet drama. This is even better than the old fighter vs. caster WOTC threads.

While we are all confessing how we ripped off Frank, I have to admit I find myself using a lot of his phrases. In one of my law classes I am known as the "stab in the face" guy.

On a geology test, on a question concerning the high price of diamonds, my answer including the phrase, "international organization and they will send actual assassins who will shoot you in the face if you try to sell large amounts of diamonds for less than the price they have determined."

The professor agreed that this was so, and his comments on my answer indicated that De Beers stock is a good investment with steady returns.

[TarkisFlux]

Would it be wierd if I referenced this thread, starting a page or two ago, as a Thread that made me Laugh, Cry, or Both?

[Cynic]

Would it be wierd if I referenced this thread, starting a page or two ago, as a Thread that made me Laugh, Cry, or Both?

I think Sigma did that a long time ago for a different subject matter in this very thread. But I thought about doing the same thing. But I wasn't sure if it made laugh or cry because I knew it wasn't both. I just couldn't make up my mind.

[Leress]

I was also given Administrator access to the site:

The only thing of Frank and K's on the site were quotes
1. In the skills section

Much of the actual material was not on the site and was mostly done in chats and IMs. Since I can't access those logs, there is no way to tell if any material was "taken". Now even if it was said it most likely was used as a starting point for ideas.

Many idea starting points on the site were similar to some of Frank and K's as well as other Denizens ideas (like Phone's Big Fat Squares) even though Caedrus's project when back to squares.

My conclusion thus far (pending): Nothing was "stolen" since there was nothing to steal. It was either a quote or idea starting points that have come from other places. Solutions were from brainstorming sessions.

-------------------------------------------------------

Caedrus: You seem to be overracting a bit to what was said. Frank never said you "stole" his material. He said that the material he saw was his (I believe that to be true). Now the context of this material is up in the air, since it could have been you quoting or someone else quoting. You can't steal things that are free.

Frank said that his problem is your bullying and secretiveness.

-------------------------------------------------------

Also it's been a couple of times that the Thread that make you cry, laugh, or both has been placed in the thread.

[ubernoob]

Many idea starting points on the site were similar to some of Frank and K's as well as other Denizens ideas (like Phone's Big Fat Squares) even though Caedrus's project when back to squares.

My conclusion thus far (pending): Nothing was "stolen" since there was nothing to steal. It was either a quote or idea starting points that have come from other places. Solutions were from brainstorming sessions.

Back while I was on the project I noticed a few of Frank's essays from the TNE threads used verbatim to start discussions with the implication that they were OW4's words (no citation or reference to seeing them elsewhere at all). The squares discussion in particular had Frank's stuff word for word.

If he went back in and gave credit where credit was due, then good job for OW4. Glad he did it eventually.

It just really irked me back then to see Frank's stuff without a link to the thread that spawned it or any reference to the man that wrote it.

[Caedrus]

He said that the material he saw was his (I believe that to be true).

Same thing. That is him (clearly falsely) taking credit for my work. And not only a specific part of my work, but by making such an oblique statement he is claiming that all work done on my project should be credited to him, whereas none of it is his. He is guilty of taking credit for work that is not his.

Frank said that his problem is your bullying and secretiveness.

And I say his problem is stealing credit and underwriting all the effort that everyone has given to my project. And if he's going to talk about bullying, then he's a hypocrite.

More unsupported claims

You're a petty liar who goes after people's reputations just because they banned you. You're not fooling anyone. Stop trying.

[ubernoob]

Hey, if you went back and referenced Frank, I'm proud of you. There's nothing to be ashamed of with passing on good stuff.

[Caedrus]

Hey, if you went back and referenced Frank, I'm proud of you. There's nothing to be ashamed of with passing on good stuff.

Except I didn't go back and do anything. There is no rule system or essay used, only one quoted post in the skill system used to frame a couple issues, clearly attributed to FrankTrollman (nothing about "squares" or "R/P/S" that you mentioned), and no post altered to give credit after it was posted. None of the things you are mentioning, even after Bigode's and Leress's posts, matches any of the findings they mentioned. Everything is the way it was before you left, and you know that as well as I do. I can have a dozen people who were there when you were corroborate this, not to mention the moderator logs. You're busted. Give up already. You're a proven liar.

The only one claiming credit for work that isn't his is FRANK. And then he's flinging insults and flames for anyone having any reasonable objection to him claiming ownership of their own work. And frankly, if you people think that it's "nothing" for him to steal credit for other people's work, then that's good for him. I hope he tries that line someday in a courtroom under plagiarist charges.

[zeruslord]

Can we get back to arguing game design and mocking all who oppose us? If I want drama, there are soap operas for that.

[Psychic Robot]

hay gays lets fail less plz

OneWinged4ngel throws another e-tantrum about nothing. Shouldn't you be ashamed of your behavior, or are you still 13?

[Caedrus]

about nothing.

Yeah, because plagiarism is nothing to you. Of course, it's very convenient that the guy stealing credit for other people's work (FrankTrollman) is the one who says that intellectual property rights mean nothing. And why do you buy something that's so easy to see through? Because it's like a bloody religion. You don't care about logic, you don't care about reasoning, you don't care about evidence, you believe something because Frank / The Book Said So. You believe that Frank wrongfully claiming credit for all my work is nothing because he told you to think that, and that's all there is to it. That's just sad.

And how, exactly, is producing exonerating (and, for the other side, incriminating) evidence a "tantrum?" Apparently any objection to the subject of your Religion is "out of line." The reality is that if Frank loses an argument, all he does is complain about the person presenting that argument.

[Psychic Robot]

baaaawwwww I'm a whiny [EDITED]

Actually, it has nothing to do with that. I have no loyalty to Frank, just as I have no loyalty to any other person on the Internet. Your e-tantrums give me lulz because you freak out about fucking everything. You could have just said, "Actually, I didn't use any of the Tome material. You must be thinking of someone else." Instead, you went into a screaming crybaby fit of histrionics appropriate for a 13-year-old girl, not a grown fucking man.

[Caedrus]

baaaawwwww I'm a whiny [EDITED]

Actually, it has nothing to do with that. I have no loyalty to Frank, just as I have no loyalty to any other person on the Internet. Your e-tantrums give me lulz because you freak out about fucking everything. You could have just said, "Actually, I didn't use any of the Tome material. You must be thinking of someone else." Instead, you went into a screaming crybaby fit of histrionics appropriate for a 13-year-old girl, not a grown fucking man.

Right, because presenting supporting evidence for a statement is "freaking out" and totally less appropriate than just making an unsupported statement and leaving things to "he-said, she-said". And you call yourselves a more academic group. Not to mention that he said he was sure that he wasn't thinking of something else, so that's obviously impractical. And surely, doing things like misquoting someone to make a childish personal attack is far more mature than me supporting my arguments with evidence.

The fact of the matter is, I proved Frank wrong, and now you people just resort to whining about the way I did so and making childish personal attacks based on what amounts to... well, the very nothing that you claim I'm arguing over.

[Judging__Eagle]

Honestly, I don't know what argument Frank made.

If it's that big of a deal, the information should be open to anyone.

It's not like anyone would make money off of it anyway. Let alone fail to credit someone else.

[Caedrus]

Honestly, I don't know what argument Frank made.

If it's that big of a deal, the information should be open to anyone.

It's not like anyone would make money off of it anyway. Let alone fail to credit someone else.

The problem isn't someone failing to credit someone else, it's Frank stealing credit for other people's work, which he justifies to himself by saying "intellectual property rights don't matter to me."

[Roy]

It wouldn't let me recover my password for a while. Not sure what was going on with the automated thing, but eh.

Let's kick things off by returning the subject to some Epic Level Fail.

So I receive this email from Joshua J Frost who will henceforth be referred to as Mr. Douchebag:

Your behavior today on our messageboards has gone over the line. Your bizarre paranoia that you're being stalked (you're not, I read every single one of Aelryinth's posts), your sexually explicit posts ("You are now arguing that the casters should be devoting their time to stroking off the Fighter because he can't get laid on his own. "Make me hard!""), and your general lack of respect for our repeated warnings to correct your behavior ("Even if I 'play nice' as the Super Happy Fun Time mods obsessively advocate I still get a hate squad attacking me without provocation") have pushed you to the point of no return.

You are no longer welcome on our messageboards, you are no longer able to post on our messageboards, and I'd *strongly* encourage you not to create sock puppets again to attempt to circumvent the ban since we'll find them and ban them too. Continued attempts to post on our boards will force us to contact your ISP as it's almost certain your behavior violates their terms of service.

Now let's review. There are 3 points here that supposedly justify a permanent ban.

The first is the Aelryinth fiasco. It is not paranoia if they actually are out to get you, and there is months of documented and recorded history to back this along with many witnesses. This mod guy made absolutely no attempt to verify this or investigate beyond supposedly his own forum. Except the issue is that the guy is stalking me onto multiple forums. He just automatically assumed I was making stuff up without even knowing me. Assuming makes an ass out of you and me.

The second is the 'sexually explicit' posts. Which are just continued plays off that joke where someone says "Make me hard!" when discussing what melee can do and why they shouldn't need buffs to function yet nothing happens to that guy except people laugh, because it's funny.

The third was acknowledgment of a failed test. I take their advice, and it means nothing and changes nothing thereby proving them hypocritical fucks. Not that there was ever any doubt in my mind, just when working when the Paizils it is necessary to repeat the very obvious.

So basically I get perm banned because of a legitimate issue I tried to resolve through the proper channels (flagging posts, etc), a silly joke, and telling some posters off for pressing the attack even when I was 'playing nice' as the little hypocritical bastards claim to want. I then get threatened with legal issues. Who the fuck jammed a quarterstaff up this guy's ass? Seriously, that's way over the top in stupidity, epic fail, and general bullshit. All at once. They didn't even bother warning me or anything.

Now to be fair, only the majority of the Paizils are full of Fail, not all of them. Some of them have some sense, or are even quite intelligent. Regardless, the vocal majority drowns out everything else with passive aggressive attacks while claiming to be nice and mods that get butthurt when you consistently prove them and their minions to be wrong so they go around making up random bullshit excuses to ban you. (the proof's right there)

Between that and what they call 'professional' on all counts I have to wonder if they have a 12 year old puberty stricken kid running the show over there. That's about the worst behavior I've seen, and I regularly work with the extremely mentally ill who have issues even understanding what logic and reason are, much less what these things mean. Yet even the 'crazies' get it eventually. I do not hold out that inkling of hope for the offender here. Hell, it's worse than Aelryinth. At least he's a funny troll.

So just as a fair warning, Logic, Reason, and Math are bannable offenses to the Paizo mind. All must submit to the collective stupidity. Blessed Be the Dumbfucks, and all that jazz.

Who was it that threw a bullshit storm at Frank? Was it this Josh clown or someone else?

Edit: Some more Lols, from Mr. Douchebag's profile.

Full Name

Joshua J. Frost

Race

Undead

Classes/Levels

Events Wizard 17

Gender

Masculine

Size

5 ft. base/10 ft. reach

Age

Pre-history

Special Abilities

Improved Flip You For Real, Weapon Focus: Wit

Alignment

Chaotic Jerk

Deity

The Holy Chao

Location

Don't bother asking me, I'm a loon.

Languages

Jive, Slang, Wit, and Smack

Occupation

Director of the Paratheo-Anametamystikhood of Eris Esoteric

Homepage URL

onemansvoice.com (personal, non-work blog)

Strength 16
Dexterity 17
Constitution 14
Intelligence 18
Wisdom 3
Charisma 199

Chaotic Jerk, Delusions, and a Wis of 3 (which goes right along with insanity). Sounds about right. Ok, so he's a child troll mod. That's so much Epic Fail it loops around to Epic What The Fuck. Then back to Epic Fail.

[Psychic Robot]

Right, because presenting supporting evidence for a statement is "freaking out" and totally less appropriate than just making an unsupported statement and leaving things to "he-said, she-said". And you call yourselves a more academic group. Not to mention that he said he was sure that he wasn't thinking of something else, so that's obviously impractical. And surely, doing things like misquoting someone to make a childish personal attack is far more mature than me supporting my arguments with evidence.

The fact of the matter is, I proved Frank wrong, and now you people just resort to whining about the way I did so and making childish personal attacks based on what amounts to... well, the very nothing that you claim I'm arguing over.

Such as what? Now this, this really offends me, and I seriously have no idea where this freakin' comes from, since FrankTrollman doesn't have access to any of my work on that project (because almost all of the work is done in private chats, and the little that isn't is posted on a private, invite-only forum that he doesn't happen to be a member of). To me, there is no more serious accusation you can make, and you just say it like it's an afterthought with no mention of what it is you claim that I've "taken."

Seriously, where the fvck do you get off making an accusation like that? I know you have a lot of credit here, but I can't let that bullshit fly. I've been completely transparent about my sources for everything I've ever made, and the only times I have referenced you, I explicitly noted my sources (and in every one of those cases that I can readily recall, it has been to explain an issue facing game designers (such as the issues addressed in my Philosophy post) because I felt you framed it in better words than I might have; I never used any rules or fluff or anything of yours). Moreover, seeing as I've not actually written any actual rules yet (or at least, I haven't shared any online, I've a bunch of stuff in my notebooks but I've not presented it to the others yet, and of course you have no way of knowing of anything therein), I don't understand how I could have stolen anything, unless you're talking about fluff, and most of the fluff is written by an author friend of mine. All we've done so far is brainstorm broader concepts and start to organize the overlying structure and feel of the system, as well as work on a campaign setting. Especially considering that I have a private forum that you don't have access to, I really am curious to know where the fvck you got that bullshit line, frank. So please, enlighten me.

Next I'll hear that you were behind all of the ideas for Td20, Gaia's Bubble, The Chronicles of Falar, or Final Conflict. Or that you invented all ideas about class design and I copied The Philosophy of Class Design post from you. Or something.

I call complete and utter bullshit, and I'm not going to let that stand. I'm fine if someone calls me arrogant or whatever, but I'm not going to let people claim credit for my work, especially if they have no way of knowing what that work is. And you're not just calling me a plagiarist, but all my friends I'm working with. Give one goddamn example. One fvcking quote.

And how are people who don't have access to any of my work know if my methods are "shot gun" or not? Seriously, what the hell is your source for this? You haven't been in any of my conversations with Draxen, ThatGuy, Radical, or Tempest, and I'm pretty sure you don't communicate with any of them, so it seems rather impossible that you would have any idea of what my methods are.

Also, as you yourself mentioned, there would be absolutely no reason to conceal my influences; I am fully aware that your work is open content. Heck, I can come out and say right now that the skill system I'm working on right now takes bits straight off Spycraft 2.0. I have every respect for your work, as well as K's, or any other game designer with half a brain for that matter, and would proudly cite my sources.

I want a bloody explanation, and if it's a practical joke, I don't find it funny. I don't fvcking rip people off.

Holy overreaction, Batman.

[Psychic Robot]

Roy: Frost is a huge douche. What can I say?

[Roy]

Roy: Frost is a huge douche. What can I say?

Granted. But supposedly this guy is in charge of a forum, and a high rank in a professional company. Which just leaves the question of who was it that is scared shitless of Frank? If it was this clown, many mysteries have just been solved.

[Manxome]

The problem isn't someone failing to credit someone else, it's Frank stealing credit for other people's work, which he justifies to himself by saying "intellectual property rights don't matter to me."

He did nothing of the kind. He claimed that he saw you using some material that he has previously published as open content. Unless he cites a specific example and it turns out to be material that he did not write, then he is not claiming credit for your work, even if his statement is incorrect--he's only claiming credit for material already published under his own name, and the false part of his claim would be where he says that you're using it.

I happen to agree that he probably shouldn't be casually dropping claims about you using his material without attribution unless he's willing to go into details, but an appropriate reaction might be to say that you're confident he's mistaken and that if you have done this, it was unintentional and you'd appreciate a citation so you can correct it. Making numerous lengthy posts about how he's lying and you're offended and he has no proof is not a good strategy for enhancing either your position or your appearance, even if you're right.

[Caedrus]

He did nothing of the kind. He claimed that he saw you using some material that he has previously published as open content. Unless he cites a specific example and it turns out to be material that he did not write, then he is not claiming credit for your work, even if his statement is incorrect--he's only claiming credit for material already published under his own name, and the false part of his claim would be where he says that you're using it.

Okay, that's a fair point. That is a more accurate description of his error.

I happen to agree that he probably shouldn't be casually dropping claims about you using his material without attribution unless he's willing to go into details

Yeah, seriously, I don't know how someone can reasonably call that "nothing," whether they believe in the value of intellectual property or not, because it holds all sorts of other serious implications.

but an appropriate reaction might be to say that you're confident he's mistaken and that if you have done this, it was unintentional and you'd appreciate a citation so you can correct it.

Isn't that what I said in my second post? He refused to provide a citation.

I said:

*Sigh* Anyways, look, I'll try to give Frank the benefit of the doubt here, just because I respect him enough to do that.

If there's a real issue of something being taken, I can't fix it if I'm not aware of it and he doesn't tell me what he believes was taken. So please, tell me exactly what you think was taken without attribution, I'll see if I see a correlation, and then I'll call on it and give credit where credit is due. And if not, I can clear the issue up and prove that I've not taken whatever it is you think was taken.

In response, I got more accusations, coupled with a refusal to provide any such resolving citation, and Frank's fanboys assuming guilt because He Said So, to which I responded with evidence. With frankly excessive evidence in hand, Frank and Frank fanboys proceed to start launching personal attacks.

Thing is, I know exactly why this happened, because Ubernoob threatened to make false claims against me when I banned him. He made up lies in order to be petty and take a swing at me, and apparently Frank bought it.