Wizards vs fighters, bombers, and attack aircraft.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:16 am

Why are people assuming that D&D abilities don't function in science world and that science world gadgets do function in D&D world? That's really a stupid assumption if you're trying to check "who would win".

Although one thing I will say in favor of the science world is that a science fiction planet has a population that is measured in billions, and D&D-worlds have populations in hundreds of thousands. And even if you're Titanium Dragon, I think we can agree that billions is more than hundreds of thousands.

While an Archmage can win any war with any modern power simply by teleport ambushing all the leaders of any modern power, they can't actually conquer the planet. They'd have to kill 2.37 people every second, all day, every day, just to keep population from rising. And they can't keep that up for more than a few minutes. The sad fact is that even if an Archmage goes apeshit and murders every modern human they can catch, they still aren't going to kill as many people in a year as Rotavirus. They're still just a serial killer, and incapable of making a dent in the ricockulous numbers of people that infest a modern industrialized planet.

But they have targeting that is unmatched and unmatchable by technology of our world. Any person who declared war on the Lich King would die within seconds, which would create a detente of sorts.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:30 am

FrankTrollman wrote: they still aren't going to kill as many people in a year as Rotavirus.

Actually, you provided the solution right there: Contagion. Or the one that is probably called Mass Contagion and affects a bunch of people. From all the diseases that exist in the real world, pick the one that society should be most grateful about being restricted to developing countries or worse. Now slap it onto one victim per caster level. As long as it spreads better than wildfire, can't be treated by first-world hospitals (or at least can't be treated faster than it spreads) and kills the host reasonably quickly, he can cast it, teleport elsewhere, repeat, then fuck off on a private holiday while he waits for everybody to die (except for the people immune to all of the diseases he picked).

Then there's the whole Summoning/Illusions/Dominate/Whatever to encourage countries to nuke each other and other ways of manipulating people into doing his job for him. Man, this archmage is a total asshole, what did we ever do to him?

(That said, his actual "I cast a spell and everyone dies" spells are indeed laughably small-time - good for modern squad-based warfare where you teleport-kill a strike team here and one there, then take out the guys holding that building, practically useless for "groups of civillians in a city" or WWI-style warfare where he's fighting against more people than he can count.)

Edit: okay, so I should keep up with the whole thread, not just poke my nose in every few days. I see people have already discussed plagues.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:06 pm

Slaad implantation is an extraordinary ability...Giant Frog.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:11 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Why are people assuming that D&D abilities don't function in science world and that science world gadgets do function in D&D world? That's really a stupid assumption if you're trying to check "who would win".

Because (afaik) the D&D sourcebooks do provide for dead magic planes, but not for places where any kind of tech is similarly disabled.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:16 pm

I am reminded of the comparative war plans between the Empire and the Mundy world in the Fable comic series.

Shatner · Post by **Shatner** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:41 pm

virgil wrote:I am reminded of the comparative war plans between the Empire and the Mundy world in the Fable comic series.

Very much so. However, all of the Empire's plans involved unleashing unstoppable, undetectable magical havoc on the mundy world (invisible elemental flame spirits, magical plagues, etc.) and then causing a global ice age to deliver the coup de gras (through the Snow Queen moving in). If we consider the Mundy world to be a dead magic zone, that won't fly.

The in-comic counterpoint was "no, they have science and guns and more people than you can imagine. Once they figure out what went down (with the help of the locally hidden fables/wizards), they will unite and kick your pre-industrialized asses".

Good stuff.

Of course the latest trade paperback says the real reason the Empire didn't invade was

because a renegade wizard had hit Geppetto with a mental compulsion to ignore whatever realm said wizard was living in, who eventually came to reside in the Mundy world, hence staving off invasion until his untimely death slightly before book #1 ever happened.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:53 pm

Are we sure that Earth is a dead magic place?
Just because /we/ don't do any magic, doesn't mean the earth is a dead magic place.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:59 pm

DSMatticus wrote: No, they automatically become evil.

That's not a major personality change for most people.

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Why are people assuming that D&D abilities don't function in science world and that science world gadgets do function in D&D world? That's really a stupid assumption if you're trying to check "who would win".
Because (afaik) the D&D sourcebooks do provide for dead magic planes, but not for places where any kind of tech is similarly disabled.

Actually, gunpowder explicitly doesn't work in Greyhawk. Murlynd 's pistols are magical railguns. Alien lasers and ray guns do work, however.

FrankTrollman wrote:Why are people assuming that D&D abilities don't function in science world and that science world gadgets do function in D&D world? That's really a stupid assumption if you're trying to check "who would win".

Who would win is really less important than who would make the most difference. The level 20 archmages don't really matter because they're all in their private demiplanes getting infinite blowjobs per second from their infinite hoards of succubus prostitutes while basking in the warm glow of artificial suns made entire of bound ifreets chained together in a self-perpetuating wish-engine that grant them 10^24 wishes per second. The Lich King has no reason to interact with the modern world one way or the other.

The problems come from people weaker than the Lich King, who still take payment in gold in exchange for doing 4th level Aristocrat King Stickuphisbum's dirtywork.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:11 pm

Making Earth a dead magic plane short-circuits most conversations regarding this. Gate can still be used on the home plane to selectively assassinate a bunch of important people.

While a wizard ordinarily can't kill excessively fast, summoning tornadoes and other extreme storms through control weather in downtown Manhattan should be excessively damaging; 10 minutes of warning is not enough for any kind of response. Same goes for dropping a handful of yeth hounds or any kind of massive area magic dropped in areas of extreme population density. Combined with teleportation, and you can go Hollywood disaster film on their butts.

If you go Tome-logic, a single 15th level Fire Mage would be...damaging.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:22 pm

Wouldn't there be plenty of creatures who'd want to help / educate us as well?

violence in the media · Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:40 pm

ishy wrote:Wouldn't there be plenty of creatures who'd want to help / educate us as well?

Then we'd have to assume that there are a number of modern people that would line up to become Wizard Apprentices and Sorcerer Starfuckers. If we assume a constant percentage of population that switches sides and we ignore infinte planar population shenanigans, then the magical realm likely winds up getting way more new team members than they lose.

schpeelah · Post by **schpeelah** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:41 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Why are people assuming that D&D abilities don't function in science world and that science world gadgets do function in D&D world? That's really a stupid assumption if you're trying to check "who would win".
Because (afaik) the D&D sourcebooks do provide for dead magic planes, but not for places where any kind of tech is similarly disabled.

I think in Faerun the god of technology has veto rights on each and every technology. He explicitly can make gunpowder nonflammable at any time.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:59 pm

VitM wrote: line up to become Wizard Apprentices and Sorcerer Starfuckers

*gets in line* (ok, maybe I'm over in the tree fucking druid line, or reveling in my ability to become a cause cleric of satanism...)

Shatner · Post by **Shatner** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:14 pm

In the Fables series, the winning side won because they had near perfect information on their enemy (specifically troop deployments, battle doctrines, logistical bottlenecks, command structure, etc.), an uninterruptible means of projecting force ANYWHERE, and the ability to pack massive amounts of ordinance into even the smallest of forces. What followed were a series of systematic strikes which crippled their rivals logistics, the bolstering of a suddenly powerful rival nation-state, a complete decapitation of their leadership, and finally a couple of out-and-out slaughters of major forces through surgically delivered overkill. It made for some great comics, too.

The above really sounds like the DnD wizard playbook (possibly minus the "bolstering a rival power"), so if the mundane world is susceptible to magic, and the wizards of the DnD world can actually muster enough give-a-damn to want to conquer/obliterate the mundane world, I don't foresee the mundane world possibly surviving, let alone winning.

Even if we gave the modern world a decade or so of warning, rather than just unleashing a series of catastrophic alpha-strikes, without wizards of our own to inform our defensive preparations, there isn't much we could do proactively... it's not like we can gate-port nukes on them like they could on us. Every part of modern civilization is way too interdependent on the rest of modern civilization to be able to withstand perfectly precise strikes on crucial people and locations. Magical DnD society, meanwhile, only really needs enough orcs and owlbears for an adventuring party to stab so that they can reach level 20 and then unleash extra-planar devastation.

Now, if the mundane world has an explicit "no magic allowed" rule, then barring some dumpster diving for the extraordinary bullet solution (rather than the magic bullet solution), the DnD world lacks the ability to make much of an impact on our world. Once the almost infinite force-multiplier of magic is taken away, DnD world probably isn't able to muster enough oomph to conquer North Korea, let alone the whole of the world. And that's true even if they do have quislings joining the cause...

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:06 am

sabs wrote:Are we sure that Earth is a dead magic place?
Just because /we/ don't do any magic, doesn't mean the earth is a dead magic place.

Well the problem there is that magic isn't real. There is a non-zero chance that I'm wrong, magic is totally real and it's just that you can't do magic on Earth/humans can't do magic, but the best explanation for the current situation is "magic does not exist anywhere for anyone".

If you were playing D&D set in Earth, then there'd be the assumption that magic is in, because it's D&D, and therefore the world would be very different. I'm not just talking about everyone speaking the same language and using a gold-backed economy, either. Total Wizard Crazytown.

So for this argument, there are two directions you could take it:
A) Real World Rules: nobody visits this world because D&Dland doesn't exist, magic isn't real, and you can't open portals to other worlds by waving your hands in the air and chanting gibberish.
B) D&D Rules: magic is in play, bitches.

So really, for this scenario to even hypothetically occur, we need to suspend the assumption that magic isn't real. In which case it's happening and the only question is whether, given magic is now switched on, Earth also had the magic from the start and thus it is no longer Wizard vs Cannon but in fact Wizard vs Wizard.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:17 am

If magic was real, how would we ever discover it?

Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, etcetera get their magic from a source that can't simply be researched (genetics or deities).

Wizardry requires that you memorize a pattern somehow and then say gibberish while moving some body parts in a very precise way.

Which thing would Humans discover in a 1 million year timespan?

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:39 am

Divine magic is easy enough. Jesus grants Father Flanagan uses of Polymorph Any Object to transform wine into human blood and bread into human flesh (which, incidentally, means that Catholic Priests start at Level 15). I'm sure Allah, YHWH, Odin, and Shiva also grant magic to their followers. The Golem of Prague requires that Judah Loew ben Bezalel was at least a 11th level with access to animate objects, commune, and resurrection.

The Historical Reference series, which is 2nd edition, does have rules for using magic in various real-world historical settings. Of particular interest is a number of Christian and Islamic magical traditions that were active during the Crusades.

Arcane magic has a similar issue. People have been trying to do magic for a long time, and a great many varieties of it exist. One of them is sure to have stumbled onto something that worked through trial and error if nothing else.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:54 am

Dude, you can just go to a barns and noble and pick up a book of actual magical spells; their and my advice: never summon anything.

Somewhere between 85%~93% of the 7.04 billion people on earth have some form of religion they believe in. Hell, being a Christian presupposes that actual magical paths to real ultimate power not only exist but are over there and could be done, but do not because we have been commanded to not do that to gain the highest power's protection and intervention. Believing that God, angels, powers, demons, and magic exists is the norm, while true "there is nothing else nor any higher power" atheism makes up less than 2% of humanity's population.

K · Post by K » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:09 am

hyzmarca wrote:Divine magic is easy enough. Jesus grants Father Flanagan uses of Polymorph Any Object to transform wine into human blood and bread into human flesh (which, incidentally, means that Catholic Priests start at Level 15).

Nah. That's just a Create Water variant that uses wine as material component and makes blood instead of water, so 1st level clerics.

I remember a cheap bowl that made blood in some supplement and it used Create Water as the base spell.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:14 am

And there are even people who don't believe in a sentient higher power, but do believe magic functions, even if only under the definition of "achieving a change in the universe through means which do not conform to recognized methodologies." Some of them are called satanists. I don't, personally, know of any other specific labels.

One could suppose that MundieLand has, at the least, some first level adepts scattered around, and a legacy of more powerful spellcasters whose works have been lost/ignored/both.

Soyweiser · Post by **Soyweiser** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:56 am

Looking at real life examples, the wizards will win. It took the greatest military force in the world ten years to kill one arch mage. And this mage is actually only a cleric.

So mages win. Period.

Can I ask a question, as an outsider. Why are you guys discussing this so seriously? (And not only this, there is pages and pages of drivel about all kinds of gaming systems you guys do not even play, Theoretical stuff that never comes up in real games, or other theory-crafting) I just wonder why.[/url]

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:56 am

People get bored and feel like debating stupid shit, perhaps? Alternatively we're all nerds, and that's what nerds do, have you not seen Big Bang Theory?

To turn it around, if you're not interested in inane debates about weird hypothetical situations and the implications of game rules, then given that's what the Den is about, why are you here? You don't need to ask permission to fuck off if there's nothing here you want to talk about.

Alternatively, you could go create your own thread to have a conversation you feel more comfortable with, about which farming methods are best for apricots or whatever it is you like.

Soyweiser · Post by **Soyweiser** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:29 am

Koumei wrote:People get bored and feel like debating stupid shit, perhaps? Alternatively we're all nerds, and that's what nerds do, have you not seen Big Bang Theory?

Not a fan of the BBT. I kinda dislike the easy stereotypes. Season one was funny, but after that it got boring fast.

why are you here?

Honestly three (edit: dohhh... I mean four of course

). reasons:
1, the only active thing your forum does is play dom3. And it every once in a while creates players that are nice and good to play against. I would like those players to also visit the other forums about dom3, and participate. People like Korwin. K and frank can stay here btw. Not a fan of them.
2, Watching these discussions is like watching a trainwreck. No, like watching a group of retards discuss. There is shouting all around people calling each other retarded. Whole man years of life get wasted on minute mechanics that matter nothing in real life. I think it is funny.
3, I post the most entertaining parts on IRC. People laugh. I get personal validation from having entertained people.
4, I live under a bridge.

Alternatively, you could go create your own thread to have a conversation you feel more comfortable with, about which farming methods are best for apricots or whatever it is you like.

I don't think that that would work. This forum seems to be filled with people that mostly act on the negative, growing apricots seems to be positive and active. I don't think that would be a good fit. Now, proposing game mechanics for growing plants would probably work. But all the post after that would probably just call my mechanics retarded.

Mr. GC · Post by **Mr. GC** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:12 pm

Your barrel of cocks has arrived. You know what to do with it right?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:50 pm

Soyweiser wrote: the only active thing your forum does is play dom3.

True. As long as you don't include making rules for stuff, and playing multiple games using those rules (and using existing ones). So if you don't include the creation of After Sundown, Disgaeagame and so on, and the campaigns of Shadowrun, D&D, After Sundown, World of Darkness...

4, I live under a bridge.

You do realise that an admission of trolling is one of the things that can actually get you booted, right? And that "cryptic clues" isn't actually a defence because everyone knows what you mean.

This forum seems to be filled with people that mostly act on the negative

There are some who prefer to do entirely constructive things. Most of my creations are products of spite - making stuff because someone else did a shitty job of something similar - but some create out of love or whatever it is.

And there are people who would actually be happy to discuss gardening in the "Not Related to Gaming" section.

Now, proposing game mechanics for growing plants would probably work. But all the post after that would probably just call my mechanics retarded.

Largely it'd only happen if the mechanics were stupid. The mechanics for growing plants would need to satisfy some of the following:
[*]Is engaging for the players - they actually make decisions in the process and it's not just an automatic die roll. If this fails, then you haven't really made something interesting for the players, likewise there will be people who feel they have no reason to even be there, and as such we will call you names for making the game less fun.
[*]Is predictable in the sense of "If we plant this in acidic soil, then it won't grow well unless we use this fertiliser and even then not as well as if we plant it in that neutral soil, and the rules say as much". If not, and planting crowbars causes lamp posts to grow* or whatever, then people will say how retarded it is because the world makes no sense and the people in the world wouldn't know how to act.
[*]Has some value or relevance to the game - many games would not need depth or complexity for the gardening, because it rarely, if ever, comes up - and that's sad, trust me. So for your average D&D or WoD game, this is entirely pointless and people will probably laugh at you. But you should totally create such a thing if you want a section or even an entire game to revolve around gardening.

And that is seriously a big part of many debates here, saying "Hey, I need X in my game" or "X needs more focus, let's do something" and then trying to satisfy all three of the above.

*Of course I fucking know about Narnia