Same-Game Testing: Rogue v. Factotum

[Juton]

Does anyone here even like the Factotum? To have a fair test we need some people in its corner who like it enough to know how to use it and optimize it. The absence of any such voices may be all the indictment you need.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Does anyone here even like the Factotum? To have a fair test we need some people in its corner who like it enough to know how to use it and optimize it. The absence of any such voices may be all the indictment you need.

You don't have to like something to optimize it.

[Saxony]

Why? "Take an extra action for free" is an awesome feat, why wouldn't you take it over and over?

Because it doesn't do that at almost any of the levels we're talking about.

15 Inspiration points are available by level 8. That's 5 extra standard actions per encounter.

Not having said nova ability until level 8 and burning every feat until then sucks ass we agreed there.

However, I believe the main discussions have mentioned mostly level 10 and level 15.

8 < 10. Retard.

8 < 15. Retard.

Also, it doesn't really exist in almost any game ever, because it's obscure web content that is here. If you're basing your life on something that sketchy and obscure, you don't have a life.

-Username17

Agreed, but with less douche bag tone.

[ubernoob]

Does anyone here even like the Factotum? To have a fair test we need some people in its corner who like it enough to know how to use it and optimize it. The absence of any such voices may be all the indictment you need.

Optimizing it is relatively simple.

Strongheart halfling Factotum 20
Feats:
1) TWF
Halfling) Nymph's Kiss (more skill points)
3) Knowledge Devotion
6) EWP: Gnome Cheese
9) ITWF
12) Darkstalker
15) GTWF
18) Umm, whatever

You could switch it around, but that's basically it. Levels 1 is slightly better than a rogue since you get martial weapon prof and are just drawing daggers with slight of hand as free actions and deal around 1d3+2 base damage +2d6 iajutsu. At level 3, you get knowledge devotion which is going to help out with the fact that you're hitting flatfooted AC instead of flatfooted touch AC. Level 3 also grants you +int to init, which really helps you get the jump on people. Oh, you also get grease once per day. That's good too. Really, this build is pretty sweet at level three since you're still dealing rogue damage (if with less accuracy).

After level three, you more or less cry in a hole until level 8. Then you get an erection because all the sudden you can cast a spell and full attack in the same round.

Let's look at level 10 though.

Spells prepared:
4th: Greater invisibility
Rest: Dispel Magic, Phantom Steed (for when you need to run away), Rope Trick (so you can rest at the end of the day)

Your attacks are something like 7 bab 2 str 2 insight 2 magic -2 TWF for a total routine of +11/11/6/6. Your damage is 1d3+6+4d6 Iajutsu.

Here's what happens against the colossal animated object: You blow your greater invis on it. You wail on it for 70 damage a round. It will take you 5 rounds to kill it. You have 80 hit points. It will kill you in 3 hits. Luckily, it has 50% miss chance due to not being able to see you, so you *barely* beat it if we leave out the chance to grapple you. If you weren't packing adamantine gnome cheese razors, you straight up lose this fight. Probable loss.

Young adult brass dragon: Grapples you to death because he thinks it's funny. Loss.

Couatl: Charm monster has a DC 17. Your will save is about +7. So, it can rocket tag you. Your full attack (assuming you win init and blow your standard action getting into place to full attack) does not deal enough damage to kill it in one round. After that it grapples you to death. Loss.

Bebilith: See the dragon. Loss.

Formian Myrmarch: See dragon. Loss.

Fire Giant: See dragon. Loss.

Long story short, everything of your level can just beat the shit out of you in melee and your spells don't mean a damn except to try and set you up for iajutsu damage.

Reason why this doesn't apply to the flask rogue? The flask rogue is running around attacking flat footed touch AC (10 or less on every creature at this level) with a +8 on his lowest attack (he gets 5) dealing 6d6+2 damage on each hit (average damage per hit: 23*6 hits = 120 damage). So the flask rogue actually can take out about half the monsters on this list in one full attack and all of them within two.

Yes, Factotum is a worthless class.

[Juton]

Does anyone here even like the Factotum? To have a fair test we need some people in its corner who like it enough to know how to use it and optimize it. The absence of any such voices may be all the indictment you need.

You don't have to like something to optimize it.

To an extent that's correct, but if you really love a class then you are always looking for ways to optimize it, if you think a class is lame then you file it away and don't ever really consider it again. In a discussion like this you need someone bringing ideas to the Factotum's corner, I don't see that happening for whatever reason.

[ubernoob]

Why? "Take an extra action for free" is an awesome feat, why wouldn't you take it over and over?

Because it doesn't do that at almost any of the levels we're talking about.

15 Inspiration points are available by level 8. That's 5 extra standard actions per encounter.

OK, let's look at building for the best possible level for the class and starting and ending at this level.

Human factotum 8
1) FoI
H) FoI
3) FoI
6) FoI

1+2+3+4 = ten bonus inspiration +5 base = 15. That's 5 standard actions. Obviously you're going to use Iajutsu. Your bonus is +13 or so. That grants you 3d6 bonus damage. Your base damage is going to be from stacks of greatswords that you draw. So you're going to charge after grabbing a greatsword to attack flatfooted AC at +12 or so. You will then do 5 more standard action attacks with all of your IP. Grand total of 6 attacks at +12 dealing 5d6+4 or so damage.

A rogue uses 5 attacks against flatfooted touch AC dealing 6d6+2 every single round at this level. Without Iajutsu.

Your nova is as good as the rogue's base round. Shut up now.

[Psychic Robot]

We should probably ignore flask rogues for this if we're going to ignore FoI factotums.

[ubernoob]

We should probably ignore flask rogues for this if we're going to ignore FoI factotums.

Flask rogues are core and viable. And people have actually played them at games.

[Juton]

There is a problem with your test Uber. Factotum casts Greater Invis, then the Animated Object, the Coatl and the Fire Giant can't spot him for 10 rounds. If he brings along a potion of remove scent then the Formian and the Bebilith can't find him either.

[Zeezy]

Does anyone here even like the Factotum? To have a fair test we need some people in its corner who like it enough to know how to use it and optimize it. The absence of any such voices may be all the indictment you need.

I used to, back when I was first starting D&D. Now, I realize that trying to optimize a factotum's combat ability is like trying to optimize an expert, except the factotum can pull off three rounds' worth of attacks in one: you can, but why bother when you can optimize a class that actually has class features geared toward combat?

Your nova is as good as the rogue's base round. Shut up now.

I can do you one better: the factotum's standard attack routine is marginally better than the druid's animal companion. A druid's brown bear will deal 1d8+9 (13.5) with his claws at +14 each, and 2d6+4 (11) with his bite at +9 (unless he takes Multiattack, which he can), and he'll try to grapple with each successful claw attack. Assuming a masterwork greatsword (2d6: 7) with iaijutsu focus (+3d6: 10.5) and 14 strength (+3), he's dealing 21.5 damage with one attack at +10 (flat-footed, mind you). The animal companion will deal 38 damage if all its attacks hit, and will probably start a grapple. The factotum's normal attack routine will deal 41, if both attacks hit at +10/+5. Thankfully, the factotum has cunning surge, bringing its first-round attack routine to +10/+5/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10, right? We are, of course, assuming the factotum wins initiative (which he has a good chance of doing).

Oh, and you're wrong, ubernoob. You can draw a weapon as part of a regular move. I don't think a charge attack qualifies, but feel free to prove me wrong. So, assuming I'm right, he can't charge unless he spends his level 9 feat on Quick Draw. On top of which, if he does have to draw a new greatsword after every attack to trigger iaijutsu focus, then he will need Quick Draw. Even if he does charge, he only gets the +2 on the charge attack, not any subsequent attacks, which makes his charge attack routine +12/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10.

[Hicks]

Drawing a hidden weapon (in 3.5) can be done as a free action with 1 rank in Sleight of Hand. This does not stop the Factotum from suffering from a terminal case of the "just fucking dies".

[Zeezy]

Drawing a hidden weapon (in 3.5) can be done as a free action with 1 rank in Sleight of Hand. This does not stop the Factotum from suffering from a terminal case of the "just fucking dies".

This only applies to light weapons and small objects, unless I'm missing something.

[ubernoob]

There is a problem with your test Uber. Factotum casts Greater Invis, then the Animated Object, the Coatl and the Fire Giant can't spot him for 10 rounds. If he brings along a potion of remove scent then the Formian and the Bebilith can't find him either.

He's attacking in melee range. With no reach. Listen checks. His move silently is at -20 for being in combat and there are no distance penalties. They totally know exactly what square he's in.

Oh, and you're wrong, ubernoob. You can draw a weapon as part of a regular move. I don't think a charge attack qualifies, but feel free to prove me wrong. So, assuming I'm right, he can't charge unless he spends his level 9 feat on Quick Draw. On top of which, if he does have to draw a new greatsword after every attack to trigger iaijutsu focus, then he will need Quick Draw. Even if he does charge, he only gets the +2 on the charge attack, not any subsequent attacks, which makes his charge attack routine +12/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm
There is no restriction to small objects. It just has to be hidden. Now, it totally doesn't have to be hidden well. You just have to use the skill (and they definitely spotted you due to the minus 20), but that doesn't matter because they are flatfooted by other means (losing initiative).

[Juton]

That's correct, but the Factotum relies on drawing Gnomish quick-razors to make his opponents flat footed, which are light weapons I believe.

[ubernoob]

That's correct, but the Factotum relies on drawing Gnomish quick-razors to make his opponents flat footed, which are light weapons I believe.

I tested two different builds. The quickrazor is the level 10 test (which loses) and the level 8 FoI (which uses greatswords since it burns all its feats on FoI) which loses harder.

[Zeezy]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm
There is no restriction to small objects. It just has to be hidden. Now, it totally doesn't have to be hidden well. You just have to use the skill (and they definitely spotted you due to the minus 20), but that doesn't matter because they are flatfooted by other means (losing initiative).

It has to be hidden, yes, but you can't hide anything larger than a light weapon or small object -- not by using Sleight of Hand, anyway. You could hide it in a bag, but then it's a move action to produce it, and I don't think Sleight of Hand works there. Unless there's text beyond what the PHB/SRD states for Sleight of Hand, it doesn't work on a greatsword.

[ubernoob]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm
There is no restriction to small objects. It just has to be hidden. Now, it totally doesn't have to be hidden well. You just have to use the skill (and they definitely spotted you due to the minus 20), but that doesn't matter because they are flatfooted by other means (losing initiative).

It has to be hidden, yes, but you can't hide anything larger than a light weapon or small object -- not by using Sleight of Hand, anyway. You could hide it in a bag, but then it's a move action to produce it, and I don't think Sleight of Hand works there. Again, unless there's text beyond what the PHB/SRD states for Sleight of Hand, it doesn't work on a greatsword.

This is the relevant quote:

You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body.

I think you're right actually. You have to have the object be hidden to use slight of hand instead of quickdraw and you can only hide small objects.

Instead of running the numbers again, can we pretend the factotum had some least augment crystals of returning? It's 300 gp per weapon and WBL at 8 is like 27k.

[Zeezy]

Instead of running the numbers again, can we pretend the factotum had some least augment crystals of returning? It's 300 gp per weapon and WBL at 8 is like 27k.

Well, I was thinking 10, but sure. All that changes from 8 to 10 is the factotum's attack bonus goes down by 1.

[Username17]

Point of fact: the FoI Factotum is bullshit on many levels. First of all, it's obscure as hell and made out of web enhancement content that's only slightly more official than a web forum post. But secondly, it doesn't actually increase the amount each feat adds every time you take it. That's a completely bogus interpretation based on some poorly written text. But unlike something that PR happens to not like that is totally core and totally unambiguous and raw, the entire concept of the FoI Factotum rests upon a dubious and false interpretation of a poorly written rule.

Here's the important parts:

Benefits: When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 1 inspiration point.

Special: You can take this multiple times. Each time you take this feat after the first time, the number of inspiration points you gain increases by 1 (for example, you gain 2 inspiration points if you take the feat a second time).

Yeah. It doesn't make you gain 3 Inspiration Points for taking it twice, nor does it make you gain 4. It makes you gain two. It's not 2 for the second plus one for the first. It's not two per feat once you've taken it twice. It's literally just two points. You "gain 1" for taking the first feat, and when you take the feat again, your total gain increases to two.

Why didn't they say that you gain one Inspiration Point per feat and that you can take the feat more than once? Because it's fucking terribly written shitty web content, that's why!

If you have to pretend that your bonuses are literally the square of the actual size of your bonuses to even start to try to make a viable character, your class sucks. Really badly. The entire Font of Inspiration thing is just pathetic losers trying to cheat because they think it gives them optimization chops. It's just as fucking retarded as Pun Pun. It's not RAW, and throwing it around is not clever.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

As for WBL nonsense, isn't there some rule that says you cant spend more than 25% of your WBL on a single item?

That would mean there is an inherent restriction on pooling resources. It also means that Kaelik is still a fucking liar. Now a character is looking at being 8th level before they can put that shit past the DM.

No, there is no rule. And contrary to Uber, it's not even a suggestion. It's a suggestion that only applies creating characters at higher levels.

Which means if you are a creating a level 3 character with your party, you are allowed to (but it's suggested you not) assume you pooled your money and bought a candle. You are allowed to (and there is no suggestion that you shouldn't) assume you haven't spent your money and then in game pool your money and walk to the nearest magic Mart for your Candle of This Game Is Broken.

[Saxony]

Because it doesn't do that at almost any of the levels we're talking about.

15 Inspiration points are available by level 8. That's 5 extra standard actions per encounter.

OK, let's look at building for the best possible level for the class and starting and ending at this level.

Human factotum 8
1) FoI
H) FoI
3) FoI
6) FoI

1+2+3+4 = ten bonus inspiration +5 base = 15. That's 5 standard actions. Obviously you're going to use Iajutsu. Your bonus is +13 or so. That grants you 3d6 bonus damage. Your base damage is going to be from stacks of greatswords that you draw. So you're going to charge after grabbing a greatsword to attack flatfooted AC at +12 or so. You will then do 5 more standard action attacks with all of your IP. Grand total of 6 attacks at +12 dealing 5d6+4 or so damage.

A rogue uses 5 attacks against flatfooted touch AC dealing 6d6+2 every single round at this level. Without Iajutsu.

Your nova is as good as the rogue's base round. Shut up now.

I never said it was good. I was only pointing out it actually existed at level 8.

[Saxony]

Point of fact: the FoI Factotum is bullshit on many levels. First of all, it's obscure as hell and made out of web enhancement content that's only slightly more official than a web forum post. But secondly, it doesn't actually increase the amount each feat adds every time you take it. That's a completely bogus interpretation based on some poorly written text. But unlike something that PR happens to not like that is totally core and totally unambiguous and raw, the entire concept of the FoI Factotum rests upon a dubious and false interpretation of a poorly written rule.

Here's the important parts:

Benefits: When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 1 inspiration point.

Special: You can take this multiple times. Each time you take this feat after the first time, the number of inspiration points you gain increases by 1 (for example, you gain 2 inspiration points if you take the feat a second time).

Yeah. It doesn't make you gain 3 Inspiration Points for taking it twice, nor does it make you gain 4. It makes you gain two. It's not 2 for the second plus one for the first. It's not two per feat once you've taken it twice. It's literally just two points. You "gain 1" for taking the first feat, and when you take the feat again, your total gain increases to two.

Why didn't they say that you gain one Inspiration Point per feat and that you can take the feat more than once? Because it's fucking terribly written shitty web content, that's why!

If you have to pretend that your bonuses are literally the square of the actual size of your bonuses to even start to try to make a viable character, your class sucks. Really badly. The entire Font of Inspiration thing is just pathetic losers trying to cheat because they think it gives them optimization chops. It's just as fucking retarded as Pun Pun. It's not RAW, and throwing it around is not clever.

-Username17

It is terribly written web enhancement. That means its original interpretation cannot be discerned, meaning your interpretation is just as invalid as anyone else's.

In simple terms, it can be interpreted either way. Calling out people for interpreting it one way and then proclaiming an alternate interpretation as The Truth is arrogant and imperceptive.

It is most likely the larger interpretation. As you said, the "take this feat multiple times and the effects stack" route wasn't taken. The phrase "each time you take this feat" leads most readers to assume increased Inspiration Points gain happens each time the feat is taken. The phrase "have gained" or "have gained in total" instead of "gain" was not chosen. The entire sentence "Each time you take this feat after the first time, the number of inspiration points you gain increases by 1" is written in the present tense. Most likely "increased gain" does not reference past feats but the present feat.

Again, as you succinctly put, "terribly written web enhancement". No interpretation is more valid than the other because no interpretation is clearly right.

[Kaelik]

Actually saxony, because inspiration points are not things you gain once, but things you gain every time an encounter triggers, the words "have gained" and "have gained total" would be meaningless.

In this case, if you have taken FoI twice, then when you trigger an encounter, you gain your normal IP +2. And when you trigger anther encounter, you gain another Normal IP +2. The statement have gained would mean that you only get the increased IP when you take the feat, and that your Ip per encounter is still the default amount, in other words, you'd be lighting feats on fire.

So actually, all the people claiming an increasing progression are clearly wrong, and only think that because they don't understand how IP works.

That is hilarious and awesome Frank.

[Saxony]

Actually saxony, because inspiration points are not things you gain once, but things you gain every time an encounter triggers, the words "have gained" and "have gained total" would be meaningless.

In this case, if you have taken FoI twice, then when you trigger an encounter, you gain your normal IP +2. And when you trigger anther encounter, you gain another Normal IP +2. The statement have gained would mean that you only get the increased IP when you take the feat, and that your Ip per encounter is still the default amount, in other words, you'd be lighting feats on fire.

So actually, all the people claiming an increasing progression are clearly wrong, and only think that because they don't understand how IP works.

That is hilarious and awesome Frank.

If you really want to go there, I could say that the effects of Font of Inspiration only last for one encounter.

Factotums gain a number of Inspiration points every encounter based off their level. The feat never says "You get more Inspiration points per encounter". It just says "You gain more Inspiration points".

[Kaelik]

If you really want to go there, I could say that the effects of Font of Inspiration only last for one encounter.

Factotums gain a number of Inspiration points every encounter based off their level. The feat never says "You get more Inspiration points per encounter". It just says "You gain more Inspiration points".

Yes, that's an equally valid interpretation as the feat allows them to gain one IP per feat. But both those interpretations are more valid than that it allows them to gain 3 IP each encounter for two feats.