Definition of Christianity

[violence in the media]

Yeah, Catholic baptism is ritual you schedule for off-hours at the church during a workday as a kindness to your friends and family members so they have an easy excuse for not attending.

NO, sorry, but NO.

Catholic infant baptism (as opposed to Catholic adult baptism) is something that is typically done on a Sunday, after the last Sunday Mass. It is small ceremony, typically done in small groups of 3 to 6 infants along with their parents, god parents, close friends and close relatives by either a priest or a deacon. It is then followed by individual luncheons that often cost just as much as a wedding. (Later followed by the very expensive one year old celebration luncheon.)

Catholic adult baptism is a long and drawn out process. After being bored to death with the RCIA (Rite for Christian Initiation for Adults) over the course of Advent and Lent, the converts are baptized and confirmed and receive their first Holy Communion at the Easter Vigil Mass, the longest Mass in the liturgy. It is one of those very odd exceptions where a priest can in the name of his bishop confirm someone.

The bolded part is a myth. No one in their right mind coverts to Catholicism.

[tzor]

The bolded part is a myth. No one in their right mind coverts to Catholicism.

In a strange twist of fate as we fully enter the 21st century, there is actaully a Wiki page about that: List of people who converted to Catholicism

[Crissa]

...And therein we have a conundrum. vinthem didn't say 'no one converts to Catholicism.'

-Crissa

[violence in the media]

Yeah, Catholic baptism is ritual you schedule for off-hours at the church during a workday as a kindness to your friends and family members so they have an easy excuse for not attending.

NO, sorry, but NO.

Catholic infant baptism (as opposed to Catholic adult baptism) is something that is typically done on a Sunday, after the last Sunday Mass. It is small ceremony, typically done in small groups of 3 to 6 infants along with their parents, god parents, close friends and close relatives by either a priest or a deacon. It is then followed by individual luncheons that often cost just as much as a wedding. (Later followed by the very expensive one year old celebration luncheon.)

Catholic adult baptism is a long and drawn out process. After being bored to death with the RCIA (Rite for Christian Initiation for Adults) over the course of Advent and Lent, the converts are baptized and confirmed and receive their first Holy Communion at the Easter Vigil Mass, the longest Mass in the liturgy. It is one of those very odd exceptions where a priest can in the name of his bishop confirm someone.

I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the refutation of anything I said anywhere in this wiki-quote of yours. Admittedly, I've never heard of anyone doing this extravagant luncheon you speak of, especially not one that runs into wedding dollars--is that a New England thing?

[tzor]

I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the refutation of anything I said anywhere in this wiki-quote of yours. Admittedly, I've never heard of anyone doing this extravagant luncheon you speak of, especially not one that runs into wedding dollars--is that a New England thing?

Sorry, that wasn't a wiki quote, but thank you for suggesting that I'm as ... you fill in the blank ... as a wiki editor writer.

It might be a New England / Long Island / NYC thing.

[Prak]

They all are Christian, but claim each other is not, which is stupid. They should be calling each other heretics or heathens, not "not Christians".

I think Frank brought this up before, in a debate when we had both a crazy Catholic and a crazy Protestant. I recall it involved the Protestant saying "I dunno', that worship of Saints and stuff sounds too much like polytheism." then it was pointed out that the Bible itself says there are other gods - you're just not allowed to like them.

There's also the fact that Catholics (and other denominations which believe in saints) don't worship saints, but merely revere them, and pray to them much as you would buy someone in a king's court a few drinks so maybe they'd put in a good word for you.

I was baptised, and I think Christians are suffering from fear-based delusions and need to seek counselling.

Your definition makes me a Christian despite having burned that bridge behind me long ago.

Same, but just think, if there's a vampire apocalypse, we can bless water, despite not believing any damn part of the "god damn bible"

Yeah, I actually have evidence that people do convert to catholicism, my parents are involved with the RCIA of the church my father has been assigned to as a Deacon.

yes, my parents are catholic. you may recall I'm a satanist. They are deeply ashamed of my religious choice. Jokes on them, I'm ashamed of theres, and the fact that my mother managed to "religion whip" my father.

[Koumei]

if there's a vampire apocalypse, we can bless water, despite not believing any damn part of the "god damn bible"

I want to steal a Eucharist and make holy penicillin from it.

my mother managed to "religion whip" my father.

Religion-whipping sounds hot.

[Prak]

if there's a vampire apocalypse, we can bless water, despite not believing any damn part of the "god damn bible"

I want to steal a Eucharist and make holy penicillin from it.

Really? I want to eat a bowl of "christ-chex" for breakfast.

my mother managed to "religion whip" my father.

Religion-whipping sounds hot.

It's not, he used to be so much cooler and more intelligent before that damned religion wrapped around his brain stem.

[Meikle641]

I recall my brother's common-law wife tried to force him to convert to Catholicism. Ended up saying "Fuck this" and she refused to marry him.

The thing that gets me? Her family is NON PRACTICING yet they force their bullshit on us and their kid(s).

I'd say a decent amount of conversions are simply so you can fucking marry someone, whether they're a Catholic or a Jew.

[Neeeek]

I recall my brother's common-law wife tried to force him to convert to Catholicism. Ended up saying "Fuck this" and she refused to marry him.

The thing that gets me? Her family is NON PRACTICING yet they force their bullshit on us and their kid(s).

My parents went through that when they got married. My mother refused to convert (I believe she was an atheist at the time), but agreed to raise any children as Catholic. They got divorced when I was about 3. Funny thing: My mom converted to Catholicism wholeheartedly after the divorce, and was the one who took me and my brother to mass every week. My dad is completely non-practicing (I have no reason to think he believes in much of anything) and had the exact same experience with his parents (who didn't get divorced, just his mom wasn't Catholic when the marriage happened and became much more strongly devoted to the faith than her husband). Of course, growing up in the Catholic Church convinced me there is no god. So my kids won't face the same issues.

[RobbyPants]

I'd say a decent amount of conversions are simply so you can fucking marry someone, whether they're a Catholic or a Jew.

I've seen that happen or almost happen several times with people I know.

[tzor]

There's also the fact that Catholics (and other denominations which believe in saints) don't worship saints, but merely revere them, and pray to them much as you would buy someone in a king's court a few drinks so maybe they'd put in a good word for you.

English is a strange … no strike that … the English language outright sucks. Most, if not all, of the modern “English” words are basically sloppy approximations of what they were generally thought of today.

Worship: Etymology: Middle English worschipe, worshipe, from Old English weorthscipe, from weorth worthy + -scipe –ship

It is important to note that Webster still gives (although as an archaic definition) the first definition of the word as “a person of standing or importance -- used as a title or mode of address especially for holders of various high offices” and gives as its fourth definition “respect, admiration, or devotion for an object of esteem.”

Saint Worship? Catholic Answers

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia."

Thus we can see that there has always been a clear separation of attitudes towards God and towards His Saints. Yet in English depending on which side of the pond you live on you can official members of government as “Your Worship” or “The Honorable.”

We give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar; we give to God what belongs to God. It’s not our fault we use the same English word for two completely different things.

[tzor]

By the way, although everyone often jokes about it, most of the really influential apologetics of the Roman Catholic Church comes from converts. This is because while a person has been born a Catholic has been used to it all of their lives, those who convert do so because they have discovered something that they think is important enough to make them convert and as a result want to learn more and spread what they learn with others. One of the biggest examples in the United States, is that of Scott Hahn a person whom I have had the pleasure to meet and to listen to one of his many lectures.

[tzor]

I want to steal a Eucharist and make holy penicillin from it.

While I can’t seem to be able to Google a reference to it at the moment, I am pretty certain that Catholic Church teaching indicates that once the host begins to decay it is no longer the Body and Blood of Christ. Sorry about that.

You might try simple bread soaked in holy water; well at least that is less profane.

[Prak]

I want to steal a Eucharist and make holy penicillin from it.

While I can’t seem to be able to Google a reference to it at the moment, I am pretty certain that Catholic Church teaching indicates that once the host begins to decay it is no longer the Body and Blood of Christ. Sorry about that.

You might try simple bread soaked in holy water; well at least that is less profane.

I think the profanity is the point.

[Ganbare Gincun]

The bolded part is a myth. No one in their right mind coverts to Catholicism.

I know a guy that was going to convert to Catholicism for the sake of his fiancee. She absolutely refused to marry him unless he joined her church. And she didn't want to continue the relationship unless they got married. He was probably going to go through with it right up until the point where she decided to give up sex for Lent. That's when he came to his senses and realized that he was going to have to put up with that kind of crap for the rest of his life and ended the relationship shortly thereafter.

[PhoneLobster]

"Well honey, I don't really want to become a Catholic, it's humiliating and unpleasant and I don't believe in it."

"But if you insist then hey, I guess I could do it to prove my love. Of course... it would be good if you could do something similar for me as well."

"Now I don't really like religion, and we can't really have you switching to an incompatible one for the marraige so I'm thinking just a small sweeping lifestyle choice."

"So I've decided you are becoming an extreme naturist. We're talking a lifestyle of every day nudism here, I mean like you will always dress for the maximum amount of nudity you can get away with in any given situation without being arrested. Friends and family coming over to visit doesn't cut it, nor does visiting a friends private residence, if it isn't an actively policed public venue you don't get to wear pants, for the rest of your life, 'kay?"

Seems like an about fair exchange to me.

[Crissa]

Was that the weekend version of Lent, the week one, or the six week version?

-Crissa

[Meikle641]

Sounds like the second or last ones, to me.

[tzor]

The bolded part is a myth. No one in their right mind coverts to Catholicism.

I know a guy that was going to convert to Catholicism for the sake of his fiancee. She absolutely refused to marry him unless he joined her church. And she didn't want to continue the relationship unless they got married. He was probably going to go through with it right up until the point where she decided to give up sex for Lent. That's when he came to his senses and realized that he was going to have to put up with that kind of crap for the rest of his life and ended the relationship shortly thereafter.

I’m trying to understand the order of operations here. While they were engaged she was giving up “sex” for Lent? (I’m not being judgmental here but I see the signs of a “Cafeteria” Catholic, picking and choosing what to do. Not that I’m judging that either but you can’t judge a church by those who pick and choose.)

Lent is traditionally a time of fasting and abstinence. History has shown a continual gradual relaxation of the rules for fasting and abstinence over the centuries. The notion of “giving up something for Lent” is normally considered to be given to children to refrain them from eating candy. (Absence does make the heart grow fonder.)

Never the less, I should point out that using the traditional definition of forty days of Lent in the Roman Catholic Church, (as opposed to the Orthodox) Sundays are not considered a part of Lent for purposes of fasts and abstinence.

P.S. For many years the organist in my parish used to not have sex during Lent. (He was married to an ex-nun and yes they had many children.) The Easter Vigil Service is one of the longest liturgies in the Church, going on from sundown to whenever it finishes. After the service … well let’s say they more than made up for the forty days.

[Kaelik]

but you can’t judge a church by those who pick and choose.)

Yes you totally can. Every single person ever picks and chooses. Every church is composed of 100% pickers and choosers. What they pick and choose is often a reflection of what the church emphasizes.

Pickers and Choosers are the best source of judging a church, since she picked to observe Lent and not pre-marital sex bullshit we can tell that the local Priest probably emphasizes Lent more than pre-marital sex bullshit.

[tzor]

Sorry Kaelik but I have to call you out on this one. That is like saying that you can completely judge the rules of D&D by how a bunch of MtG players house rule D&D. Once you start picking and choosing you do so mostly because of your own desires. They become self excuses and self delusions. In fact, the opposite happens; if you ignore major rules you often overcompensate by taking minor rules and making them major rules instead, under the self delusion that observing the minor rule absolves you from ignoring the major rule.

That being said; the state of catechism in the Roman Catholic Church can be at times downright pathetic if at all.

[Kaelik]

Sorry Kaelik but I have to call you out on this one. That is like saying that you can completely judge the rules of D&D by how a bunch of MtG players house rule D&D. Once you start picking and choosing you do so mostly because of your own desires. They become self excuses and self delusions. In fact, the opposite happens; if you ignore major rules you often overcompensate by taking minor rules and making them major rules instead, under the self delusion that observing the minor rule absolves you from ignoring the major rule.

That being said; the state of catechism in the Roman Catholic Church can be at times downright pathetic if at all.

MtG players who play D&D are D&D players, you only tried to draw that distinction that doesn't exist so you could compare it to Catholics in your stupid argument by analogy. Then you decided to stupidly make arbitrary statements that you learned from bullshit apologists, in which you pretend to know why people do things so you can arbitrarily hide from anything anyone ever does reflecting on the Catholic Church.

But you are fucking wrong. Yes we judge D&D by how people actually play D&D, that's important. We judge D&D as a pretty cool game despite the fact that a level 5 character can buy a candle of invocation and destroy the universe because people don't actually play that.

And yes we judge the Catholic Church by what it's members do and don't do, because when people have premarital sex, it's more likely that they didn't have the premarital sex thing brainwashed into them at a young age, because the Priests didn't try as hard. It's a reflection of the Catholic Church's priorities that she cares about Lent and not sex, because a sane human being who wasn't drilled with bullshit her entire life wouldn't be arbitrarily giving anything up for a month.

[ckafrica]

In a strange twist of fate as we fully enter the 21st century, there is actaully a Wiki page about that: List of people who converted to Catholicism

I love the first one on that list

Approximately 400 Anglican priests in the UK, along with some politicians such as Ann Widdecombe and John Gummer who objected in 1993 to the ordination of women to the priesthood in the Church of England

It's good to see that the list was topped off with the embrace of Catholic misogyny.

Though you might notice that Tolkien is also on that list.

For the most part it is a fairly meaningless list without know why the conversion was done. I can understand people who do it to get married to a Catholic (though any person who would marry into a family which was so Catholic that they absolutely had to convert not meet VitM's criteria anyways) or living in a country where being catholic is necessary for public office (you'd probably would have been raised Catholic in any event).

[Kaelik]

I can see why someone raised Protestant but not quite smart enough would convert to Catholicism.

Those fuckers are good bullshiters, way better than Protestants.

When Protestants want to convince you of some bullshit, like not to have sex, they just straight up lie or command you to not have sex.

Catholics are more devious.

They start from a point way the fuck back that just happens to logically end with their goal, and make a completely unfounded assertion that makes no sense, but the dress it up in a bunch of Catholic defined funny words to make it sound cute, like "openness to procreation during sex is a good thing to have"

Then from that, they derive forward a bunch of logical rules about what you should do, several orders down.

Then they tell you those rules. And when you ask why, they show you that they are logically derived from some middle order stuff that is basically 100% special Catholic Gibberish. Then, when you eventually finally figure out what the stupid Cathol gibberish is, they show you it's derived from some principles that they made up, that are designed to sound true, and resonate, without any actual content.

So basically, logically minded people might appreciate that Catholics appear to be using logic to justify themselves, but they never trace it all the way back, or they get tricked by the stuff that sounds good when you don't think about it all the way.

A lot of people give up before they get far enough back to see the crazy made up axioms of the Cathol chain, but can easily see that "Sex is bad!" "Why?" "Because!" is not very good.

So they convert to Catholicism.

It's only for people who aren't very smart, but are trained to think in a process similar to that used by smart people, like engineers and philosophers and stuff that it works on, but it works on some people.