A class you'd like to see

[Quantumboost]

A martial artist base class which is not a Monk. Not all legendary martial artists lived in monasteries, were lawful and got supernatural abilities out the wazoo.

we call those people "Fighters"

;P

[magnuskn]

A martial artist base class which is not a Monk. Not all legendary martial artists lived in monasteries, were lawful and got supernatural abilities out the wazoo.

we call those people "Fighters"

;P

Not really. ^^

[Prak]

You're right, technically each style calls it's students something different. Practitioners of the Greek martial art, for example, are called Pankrationists. Though usually, they're generally referred to as martial artists.

[Blicero]

I was looking at a similar thread on the Paizo boards, and the two that struck me were (a) a non-spellcasting shapeshifter class and (b) a non-magical gadgeteer class.

I made a really shitty Shifter class right here (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50747) and then Ubernoob wrote one that wasn't shitty.

[Maxus]

I guess he wants something like some of the parts of Kung Fu Hustle. Say, being able to catch a bullet in two fingers, with only starting moving well after you pull the trigger. And put a dent in the bullet when you catch it. Then do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dXHw36n ... re=related

Edit; It might even be workable at that. They just get hyped-up physical skills, representing EXTREME CONTROL AND SKILL and a few abilities which are vaguely scientifically based. To pull an example COMPLETE out of thin air, with no reference to any links above this paragraph, cutting a room in half with the draft from a vertical kick.

But fact is, he's going to go superhuman fairly soon. Even if he's just superhumanly strong, tough, and fast.

Edit-edit: Actually, coming up pretty good after all. I may do a writeup soon.

[magnuskn]

I guess he wants something like some of the parts of Kung Fu Hustle. Say, being able to catch a bullet in two fingers, with only starting moving well after you pull the trigger. And put a dent in the bullet when you catch it. Then do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dXHw36n ... re=related

Edit; It might even be workable at that. They just get hyped-up physical skills, representing EXTREME CONTROL AND SKILL and a few abilities which are vaguely scientifically based. To pull an example COMPLETE out of thin air, with no reference to any links above this paragraph, cutting a room in half with the draft from a vertical kick.

But fact is, he's going to go superhuman fairly soon. Even if he's just superhumanly strong, tough, and fast.

Edit-edit: Actually, coming up pretty good after all. I may do a writeup soon.

That sounds about right. Although going over the top isn't necessary. I am thinking more along the lines of the usual Jackie Chan movie. The Forbidden Kingdom is a nice example for a westernized version, although I am not referring to the drunken style per se.

[Maxus]

Here's the thing:

There are a rough set of tiers in D&D 3.5. I remember seeing the writers say they -meant- for people past level 5 to be superhuman.

The Legend Lore spell defines anyone and anything over CR 10 as "Legendary". As in, your 11th-level character is supposed to have people able to research him with a magic spell.

I normally don't give a fuck what WotC says on a subject, but that sounds about right to me.

So your hero in a Jackie movie is a 5th level character, depending. The landlords in the Kung Fu Hustle could be over level 10. The Beast is something closer to 15.

Besides, just because he doesn't do the whole mysticism thing doesn't mean he shouldn't kick as much ass as the other Tome characters.

[STDoc]

A martial artist base class which is not a Monk. Not all legendary martial artists lived in monasteries, were lawful and got supernatural abilities out the wazoo.

I built a rather nifty non-monk martial artist class. It's not exactly amazing, but it might be something like what you're looking form. http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Student_ ... .5e_Class)

[magnuskn]

Here's the thing:

There are a rough set of tiers in D&D 3.5. I remember seeing the writers say they -meant- for people past level 5 to be superhuman.

The Legend Lore spell defines anyone and anything over CR 10 as "Legendary". As in, your 11th-level character is supposed to have people able to research him with a magic spell.

I normally don't give a fuck what WotC says on a subject, but that sounds about right to me.

So your hero in a Jackie movie is a 5th level character, depending. The landlords in the Kung Fu Hustle could be over level 10. The Beast is something closer to 15.

Besides, just because he doesn't do the whole mysticism thing doesn't mean he shouldn't kick as much ass as the other Tome characters.

Oh, I guess I am just not the right target demografic for a Gaming Den character class. Don't bother on my account.

[Maxus]

It's doable. It can even be low-key. It's just going to get stuff like...bonuses to break DCs, and ignore DR/Hardness, and likely some weird Armor Bonus (Kung Fu Blocking!) and DR, and Extraordinary Jumpin' and Balancin' Skillz (anyone sufficiently advanced should be able to do the whole "balance on a teacup and, eventually water thing.)

But a buddy also has asked for it, once I mentioned I was looking at it. So even if I don't do it on your account, I'll do it on his.

Edit: Basically, it comes down to whether you think a Wulin should get the physical control to do this: http://wen-m.deviantart.com/art/Anima-L ... 170&qo=138

(Check that guy's gallery out, by the way.)

[STDoc]

It looks like my last post didn't go through properly, so I'll try it again. I built a Non-Monk Martial Artist Class called the Student of Kung Fu. It's on Surgo's site.

[koz]

It looks like my last post didn't go through properly, so I'll try it again. I built a Non-Monk Martial Artist Class called the Student of Kung Fu. It's on Surgo's site.

Commenting here, because I hate coding wiki.

Your class, overall, is nowhere near rogue-level. You are outshot in AC by wizards. This is a serious problem with the PHB monk, and just giving it good BAB won't solve it - although it is a start. The fact you add Wisdom to AC doesn't actually mean anything, because your class is still MAD as hell, as it need FOUR ability scores to do anything anyone cares about, vs. the rogue's two. Seriously, that is an offensively bad problem.

Your fighting styles consist of numbers. Numbers are not real abilities. Remember, abilities that consist of 'do X but better' should be the minority - in your case, they are the majority. This is just bad.

Next, points-tracking stuff. Just don't do it. It's annoying, tedious and doesn't actually help anyone. If you wanna give out an ability, give uses per encounter, or just make it at-will. There's no need to make people do bullshit accounting - it's really not that good. The ninja is not a model for ability use - the warblade is.

Fourthly, the monk abilities are made of ass. Stop porting them. Chi strike was a joke when printed originally, and still is a joke, as it can't even hurt incorporeal creatures, and there are about four creatures in the SRD that even have DR/lawful. Write some real abilities please.

In general, the class is a bad mishmash of monk, fighter and ninja. It's not rogue-level, and it's not even interesting. If you want to see how a monk SHOULD look like, I suggest checking out the Tome monk, or hell, just looking at a wizard build for unarmed damage. That does a far better job at rogue-level than your class ever will.

[Judging__Eagle]

Archivist?

That's cleric spells out of a spellbook.

But can't wizards cast all spells from anywhere? So wizards should be able to do all of that cleric stuff.

Archivists are good, but their power is totally DM dependent. Wizards are limited to Wizard spells, in the DMG it even gives guidelines that Wizard spells shouldn't heal damage. Sorcerers however have a caveat that their spells are drawn primarily from the Wiz/Sorc list, what that means is never explained but conceivably you could use that to learn Cleric or Druid spells.

Uh. No. They're not.

If Bards exist, then Divine Bards exist. Learning Secret Page is... really all you need after that.

A DM that says "divine bards don't exist" in their setting need to realize that high magic settings will have divine bards in pretty easy to access locations, like, say, local temples.

Of course, you can just hit level 7, and go Efreeti-trolling for scrolls. I've always liked that idea myself.

[Judging__Eagle]

Here's the thing:

There are a rough set of tiers in D&D 3.5. I remember seeing the writers say they -meant- for people past level 5 to be superhuman.

The Legend Lore spell defines anyone and anything over CR 10 as "Legendary". As in, your 11th-level character is supposed to have people able to research him with a magic spell.

I normally don't give a fuck what WotC says on a subject, but that sounds about right to me.

So your hero in a Jackie movie is a 5th level character, depending. The landlords in the Kung Fu Hustle could be over level 10. The Beast is something closer to 15.

Besides, just because he doesn't do the whole mysticism thing doesn't mean he shouldn't kick as much ass as the other Tome characters.

Oh, I guess I am just not the right target demografic for a Gaming Den character class. Don't bother on my account.

No.... that's not it.

It's that we're talking about how D&D actually works as a rule system.


Level 1-5 is "human limitations".

Aragorn is a level 5 human, with the "Numenorean", "Heirs of Minas Tirith" and "Ancient Heritage" templates applied to him.

He can't kill "people just as fast as three men, using only one hand" (seriously, that's how one of King Arthur's knights is described, as an 11th level fighter). He can kill an orc ever round. He's a highly competent fighter, but he's not able to plough through hordes with super-human ability.

Really, skill checks, and skill check results are the real guide here. At levels 1-5, a human can achieve mortal human level accomplishments.

At level 6+, they're performing Thesus, Perseus, Herakles, Cucullain, Rostram, Achillies, Goosclap, Gilgamesh, Ekindu, and other levels of bad-assery.

"Thor" is ... seriously a level 11-16 character in D&D. An Asgaridian Outsider, with a Hammer of Thunderbolts, Belt of Giant Strength, and Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

Until people realize that fact, people will always mistakenly assume that the "hero" of any thing that they read, or watch, is a level 20 character.

They're not. Jackie Chan is level 5, Miyamoto Musahi is level 5 (prolly higher, maybe level 6, he did pull off the whole "fight a horde of trained warriors" deal at least once).

Once people realize that D&D has "mortal accomplishments" as the 1st quarter of it's content, can people realize that the high level 'fighter' is seriously some guy who has taken a bath in Dragon's Blood, for the DR bonus; or eats Mermaid's flesh to maintain their constant health and vigour.

By the time a character is level 8, their challenges from level 1, are... trivialities.

I'm honestly alright with that.

Samson murdered an army with an improvised club made of bone. He used an ass' jawbone as his weapon to kill an army of Philistines. He had reverse-trolled them, by making them capture him, and then killing them all when there was a big storm, and darkness + rain gave him the concealment and sound of battle masking he needed to get into a fight without the entire army realizing what was going on.

A level 8 PC killing 100, 400 or 1,000 CR 1-2 creatures is something I'm fine with. If anything, it helps to demonstrate the fact that the PCs are otherworldly, transhuman, and have to be very careful about maintaining their humanity in the face of their exponentially growing power.

A level 20 character is basically no different than a diety when compared to most mortal creatures. In 6 seconds they can drop as many as four people.

In real life fighting parlance... that's super fast. Dropping one person in 6 seconds when you go full out is a good thing. In real life, someone who knows what they are doing will be punching faster than 1x per second (it's not quite 2x per second, but it's close to that), or swinging a sword at 2x per second (katanas tend to clock in at around 3x per second, when compared to an arming sword).

Combat in RL is very fast, and being able to actually drop a person in 6 seconds is considered "average" to "great". Depending on who you are, and who your opponent is. Someone of average skill, against someone with no skill, ends up with the skilled person winning. Someone of globally recognized skill, against someone with also globally recognized skill is going to be a toss up based on minutiae like "weight category" and "style preference" and "total body of knowledge/training".

A greasy asshole who runs their mouth and makes sucker punches is probably not going to last very long against someone who trains in and teaches Krav Maga and Karate. An expert and creator of say... Brazilian Jujitsu, isn't going to last forever against someone who outweighs them for 20-30 lbs, doesn't allow for grappling (Brazilian/Gracie Jujitsu's strongest suit); and is using as yet 'unknown' Jujitsu techniques (specifically a technique that negates most grapple techniques; while is also causing actual harm).

In the first instance, I'm talking about a probably use of MMA, someone using it to defend themselves from someone else, who probably has no training or knowledge at all on fighting. In the second instance I'm talking the Helios Gracie vs. Kimura match that happened about 40-50 years ago or so; Kimura used a move that most people hadn't actually 'seen' before, over and over, and over again; until Gracie's shoulder was eventually dislocated, and his coach threw in the towel to prevent further injury. The move that Kimura used is now actually used by other martial arts schools, and in Gracie/Brazlian Jujitsu it's actually 'named' the "Kimura", b/c of the person who first showed it to the Brazilians.

Once you realize that level 6 = not mortal, you're fine.

Until you get that into your head, you're better off playing Warhammer Fantasy RPG, Pendragon, or Middle Earth Role Play System.

[magnuskn]

stuff

In theory that is true, although in reality nobody I know suddenly has his character don a cape and put a giant "S" on his chest at a certain level. People don't play their characters as suddenly super-human, beyond all mortals.

Eh, as I said, I am not the target demografic for this board, I don't really like min-maxing too much and that is the mind set which calls the game "rocket launcher tag" after a certain level. Which it can be, with instakill spells and high damage output, but it doesn't have to be.

[Prak]

well.... no.

But peoples character do move through tiers of power in some games, even though they may not realize, and even though sometimes they think they're a different tier than they are.

Non-D&D examples: My first time playing Werewolf, I kinda tended towards action hero/crowning moment of awesome stuff because, c'mon, "I'm a fucking werewolf". This wasn't quite where the werewolf power level is, but it's not far off.

In Runequest, my group has gone from "group of peasants with basic weaponry is a serious threat if you're not a combat character" all the way to "country shaking power that's just been told they're a hop, skip and a jump away from fulfilling a prophecy that destroys Chaos (big bad entropic evil) in the world."

Now, did we realize that in Runequest? Not for a long time, but we're learning, though I personally think my group is, overall, being a bit too timid still. But seriously, we regularly are walking through towns in bright shining gold fucking armour, because that's how powerful we are. And now it's not even gold.... mine stayed gold till I pissed it off and it took it's ball and went home, but that's because it was Fire/Sun God Sacred armour. The party leader's armour literally looks like the sky. Like, down to the gods' firepits (stars) in it, if you look close enough. Which I did, and it broke my character from reality a bit. The barbarian's armour just became stone-like because it's controlling "program" was awakened. Seriously, we are big bad super fucking mojo. We have moved through a definite tier structure, and occasionally we actually act like it.

[Judging__Eagle]

Rocket Launcher tag...... is level 1.

A fighter with a longsword and a 16 str is an average of 4.5 + 3 damage. Enough to drop most CR 1/2 threats that the PCs will see in one shot.

Wizards have colour spray, and sleep.

Seriously, how much more rocket launcher tag can you get than that?

I'm not talking about threat or danger levels. I'm talking about power levels, as in, what sorts of effects the PCs can potentially have on the world. By level 6, they will have more effect on the world than any normal person could. By level 10, they can have more effect on the setting than most nations can, even today.


As for the "reality"//"theory" marker..... who care what an adventurer wears? They're all pretty much the same. They wear equipment, own and use magic, and wield weapons.

If an PC is able to move at a speed of 60', make jump checks in the high 30's; and can regularly survive having their head crushed in, their torso turned into emmental, in a single adventure; then you're no longer within the "mortal" realm. Mortals can't survive having their skulls crushed by hill giant greatclubs, or their bodies ripped open by Cloud Giant skeleton claws. At least, not the last time I checked.

[Maxus]

By 'superhuman', I mean 'do things a vanilla mortal would not be able to do'.

Let's roll with level 8.

At level 8, you run into CR 8 opposition, mostly. Hopefully, you should be able to do something against a CR 8 creature.

Want to know what a CR 8 creature looks like?

That's right, at CR 8, you should be able to do something against a damned Tyrannosaurus Rex. Something more than "Run away like a bitch".

And a vanilla human just isn't going to cut it. Sure, you could do it at CR 3, when you're fighting lions. I'd expect an experienced human to be able to take on a lion, especially with armor, a shield, and a decent weapon.

But a T-Rex? You need something extra.

[erik]

But a T-Rex? You need something extra.

Like a horse, bow and arrows? =-)

[Fuchs]

A T-Rex is actually not that impressive. Just about every soldier today should be able to kill it given the correct tool - any heavy machine gun will do the job, as will an RPG aimed right. Older assault rifles should work as well, 7.6 mm ones I mean.

Of course we're talking medieval/fantasy resources here, but I'd think a superhuman hero should be at least able to duplicate the performance of a modern soldier.

[erik]

Now a pair of CR 7 Chimera's would be pretty nasty CR 8 fight.
Flying, breath weapon, bruiser.

No level 1 archer on a horse is gonna own that fight.

[Maxus]

I like using that T-rex picture because of the scale model. And you'd better have a lot of arrows for that thing. And it's something more comprehensible and gives a baseline.

A T-rex is CR 8. A T-Rex is a fairly wimpy encounter.

And if you're going to melee that thing, or contribute to its defeat via melee combat (a level 8 party should be able to take one no problem), then you had better have some kickass stuff happening.

[Hicks]

image not to be used without permission

Your brazenness is only equaled by your hilarity. *mild applause*

[Maxus]

I'll take it down. It makes a -great- illustration, though.

[Prak]

A T-Rex is actually not that impressive. Just about every soldier today should be able to kill it given the correct tool - any heavy machine gun will do the job, as will an RPG aimed right. Older assault rifles should work as well, 7.6 mm ones I mean.

Of course we're talking medieval/fantasy resources here, but I'd think a superhuman hero should be at least able to duplicate the performance of a modern soldier.

Modern soldiers are more around level 5, maybe 6, and use squad tactics, so, yeah, a party of modern soldiers with modern weaponry, could probably kill a trex.

But that doesn't mean they're CR 8 each.