ideas that need to go away

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:38 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:[Batman]

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:46 am

The three-book core needs to get drunk and fall in a fire. Segregation of Player info and GM info into separate books is stupid, betraying either outdated thinking (The idea that there are parts of the system that people other than the GM should not or even can not know about) or an urge to create one more book to sell. It's only ever done anymore by games that have survived since the dawn of table-top gaming as we know it and it seriously needs to go away

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:18 am

While I'm with you on the idea of having system mechanics that are MC's eyes only is stupid, I think there is still legit use for segregation of player and MC info. Mainly it's a lot easier to pitch a game to a casual player if you can point to a single book or subsection and say "everything you absolutely need to play this game is here" than it is to expect them to skim the relvant parts of a 3 book, 900 page core ruleset during their first session or ten.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:47 am

The ideal GM book would focus more on "How to run a good game (covering important planning tips)" and "X hundred plot hooks" (or a hilarious plot generator), interesting conceptual ideas (like how DMG2 mentions the 4D cube thing and so on) and all that.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:56 am

Sure, there's definatly a place for stuff like metaplot information and essays and advice for running a campaign. But there's no reason such a book needs to be part of the core rules since not everyone needs worldbuilding or campaign advice and many GMs preferr to buck a setting's metaplot. Everything that you need to play goes into one book, and everything else is optional.

(On a related tangent, I would really like monster-hunting to stop being Mode:Normal for D&D, but it's such an iconic part of the game that I doubt it will ever happen)

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:27 am

I think my ideal lay out for the core stuff to a game would be:

One page handout of the basic mechanic(s), flashy, but not so much that photocopies are unreasonable.
Ten page max pamphlet on character creation
How to Run a Good Game: Mister Cavern's Bedtime reading, with some lessons for the players too.
The Monster Manual, which would include basic guidelines on how to make a monster, and most abilities would refer you to a glossary, to save some space so that there could be more abilities, and less need to make shit up on the fly for the supercool monster you've just made up.
possibly some kind of short paperback on some optional and advanced rules, like playing monsters.

I would sell this as a complete pack. The Game running and character creation info would be situated such that they can be paged through, something like ,=' where the apostrophe and comma are the pages of those books, and the = is the pack of pamphlets, with the basic mechanic page situated such that it can be read when the game running info is open.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:34 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:I think my ideal lay out for the core stuff to a game [*]One page handout of the basic mechanic(s), flashy, but not so much that photocopies are unreasonable.

This should also be freely available as a smartphone friendly webpage.

[*]Ten page max pamphlet on character creation

That's sadly not enough to cover games with multiple classes / archetypes / castes.

So probably a 10 page pamphlet on the universal parts of chargen plus a set of cards or laminated single pages each with the info for one "class" on them. thus players could pass the class cards around during chargen, each player reading a different card at the same time and passing the ones they weren't considering around until they made up their minds.

[*]How to Run a Good Game: Mister Cavern's Bedtime reading, with some lessons for the players too

Hrm.

I'm actually wondering if "how to be a good player" should be split off. It's basically

Communicate with the others in the game - both in and out of character
Be entertaining - here're some tips for fun and creative things to do
Remember to take turns - it's not always about you
Have fun

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:04 pm

Any advice regarding playstyles or 'how to be a good DM' is a waste of space. The people who need to read that won't read it in more than a perfunctory manner and it's a waste of time for people who don't need it. Even if you were giving genuinely revelatory insights no one is going to take it to heart. Seriously, those things are about as useful as self-help books and have about the same success rate.

Why not use that space for something more useful instead, like a discussion on ceramic ducks or sausage production in the medieval ages?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:13 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Any advice regarding playstyles or 'how to be a good DM' is a waste of space. The people who need to read that won't read it in more than a perfunctory manner and it's a waste of time for people who don't need it. Even if you were giving genuinely revelatory insights no one is going to take it to heart. Seriously, those things are about as useful as self-help books and have about the same success rate.

the Mayans got it wrong! the world ends 09/25/2011 because me an LAgo agree on something!

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:13 pm

These stupid "Complaining General" threads. If you have a topic worth discussing, fine, make a thread about it. But this General Things The Den Likes To Complain About shit needs to stop.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:43 pm

The DMG should contain content on the following:

How to organize a nation
-Power Controllers [Landed, Settlement]
-Religious Organizations [Churches, Mendicants]
-Trade Leagues [Regional, Shipping]
-Crafting Guilds [Masons, Housekeepers]
-Service Organizations [Performers, Barbers]
-Diplomatic agents [Covert,

How to organize an adventure
-Base encounters on PC capabilities*
-Understanding timing
-Understanding spacing
-How a story has a rising action, climax, and falling action

How to design/understand cultures
-Dietary habits of medieval nations [meat no; lentils, beans, barley = yes]
-Understanding why the communities can't defend themselves
-Understanding why the adventurers aren't integrated into communities
-Understanding why the raiders/monsters/etc. predate on communities

*:

The classic "group" story in human folklore has each member of the party activate at least once to solve a challenge that no one else in the group could easily complete.

Things like "the three women" who help spin straw into gold (and get invited to the subsequent wedding as 'cousins' of the bride); or the "classic" 7 wanderers that join the central protagonist; each able to to some sort of insane thing, like "blow out their nose hard enough to stop someone from running forward" or "have straw that puts out fires".

For TTRPGs, having single PCs able to defeat an encounter within a 5-minute resolution is probably preferable to spending 30-60 minutes with the whole group for only a single encounter.

Of course, this notion is very much killing a sacred cow of gaming, but is more true to the timing and spacing of actual stories.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:38 am

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:The three-book core needs to get drunk and fall in a fire. Segregation of Player info and GM info into separate books is stupid, betraying either outdated thinking (The idea that there are parts of the system that people other than the GM should not or even can not know about) or an urge to create one more book to sell. It's only ever done anymore by games that have survived since the dawn of table-top gaming as we know it and it seriously needs to go away

Call me old fashioned, but I liked that concept. The thing the new editions (3E/4E) lack is a sense of discovery. You already know what magic items are out there, you may even know the monster stats. Part of the fun of the game is finding things that were new and interesting.

Magic items especially have become really stupid. You have 3E where you buy anything you want, meaning pretty much anything you find goes in the sell bin. And you have 4E where players basically write out christmas lists, leaving them to either get what they wanted, and not be surprised, or get something else and possibly be disappointed.

Lets bring some mystery back into the game.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:21 am

Swordslinger wrote: Call me old fashioned, but I liked that concept. The thing the new editions (3E/4E) lack is a sense of discovery. You already know what magic items are out there, you may even know the monster stats. Part of the fun of the game is finding things that were new and interesting.

Magic items especially have become really stupid. You have 3E where you buy anything you want, meaning pretty much anything you find goes in the sell bin. And you have 4E where players basically write out christmas lists, leaving them to either get what they wanted, and not be surprised, or get something else and possibly be disappointed.

Lets bring some mystery back into the game.

I'm not sure that's really the case. I mean, 3e still divides the books between Player Info and DM info. And I remember during my time in 2e, the DM asking us for Christmas lists of items we'd like so he had ideas for what to seed around the game world.

Towards the greater point you're making though, well, discovery and exploration are great, but that can't really be all your game is about because eventually discovery runs out. And it's really kind of bad to write the rules so that discovering those rules is part of the game. You can renew discovery with regards to the setting by changing settings, but you can't renew discovery with the rules without changing the rules, either partially or whole cloth. Take a puzzle monster for example. Once you know that Trolls go down with fire and acid, you don't get quite the same thing out of fighting trolls afterwards, even if you are playing a different character and playing that character as if they didn't know how to defeat the monster.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:30 am

you should play every character through the discovery process, unless the character has had experience with an element of the game world before.

having something in the DMG, doesnt mean it is hidden from the players, just that in making their characters, they dont need this information.

thus 1st and 2nd told DMs to change the names of things so that a player didnt know he was supposed to use fire or acid on the Frizraggle right away.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:26 am

shadzar wrote:you should play every character through the discovery process, unless the character has had experience with an element of the game world before.

Granted, but it's still not the same having your new character fighting a puzzle monster you've faced before as it is fighting the puzzle monster for the first time ever.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:37 am

then have it fight the Frizraggle instead. How many Frizraggle has any of your characters fought?

remember language is based on regional and those regional words can be few and far between when one area says troll, another could say jsut about anything.

a walking swamp is what monsters? how about bush baby?

they have a name because they relate to something similar in myth or folklore, and so that the DM can find them easy to use, but it doesnt mean the DM even has need to use that name for anything.

Desdan's Combustion Blast still functions as a fireball, but doesnt have to be called that.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:23 am

Desdan_Mervolam wrote: Towards the greater point you're making though, well, discovery and exploration are great, but that can't really be all your game is about because eventually discovery runs out. And it's really kind of bad to write the rules so that discovering those rules is part of the game. You can renew discovery with regards to the setting by changing settings, but you can't renew discovery with the rules without changing the rules, either partially or whole cloth. Take a puzzle monster for example. Once you know that Trolls go down with fire and acid, you don't get quite the same thing out of fighting trolls afterwards, even if you are playing a different character and playing that character as if they didn't know how to defeat the monster.

There's a reason there's a lot of monster manuals published. So you can keep throwing surprises and new stuff at PCs. D&D monsters are largely supposed to be flavor of the week stuff.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:52 am

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:The three-book core needs to get drunk and fall in a fire. Segregation of Player info and GM info into separate books is stupid, betraying either outdated thinking (The idea that there are parts of the system that people other than the GM should not or even can not know about) or an urge to create one more book to sell. It's only ever done anymore by games that have survived since the dawn of table-top gaming as we know it and it seriously needs to go away

I disagree with this notion only because of one thing: My group started making wish lists of magic items in our Pathfinder game because the Core Rulebook HAS the magic items list in it and the setting was dumb enough to claim that there are magic item shops in that one big capital of that random country and by that part I couldn't do much about them going and buying any and all magic items that they wanted as the game went onward.

If you ask me, THOSE KIND OF THINGS ARE NOT MEANT FOR PLAYER EYES BECAUSE PLAYERS CAN BE GREEDY LITTLE BASTARDS OUT TO WRECK YOUR SHIT.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:03 am

What's wrong with wishlists?

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:05 am

I could go on and explain in detail, but I am 100% sure someone else could do it better. And besides, my explanation would be very subjective and would probably also make little sense given I am very damned tired and thus unable to think straight aside from that one statement I made.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:07 am

The "some players are dicks" argument is just as bad as the "some GMs are dicks" argument, in that there is absolutely no rule that can ever make someone stop being a dick. Those kinds of things are called laws. Regardless, the problem with players going out and buying whatever magic items they want (assuming your magic items are, in fact, set up such that this is a problem, in which case you're probably doing something terribly wrong anyway) can be solved by not having a magic item shop.

That one in the PF city? It was burned down by the mole people. In fact, the whole city has been overrun by a zombie plague and even if you clear out the zombies the economy is still gone, so that market niche isn't getting filled in within your lifetime either.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:13 am

Chamomile wrote:(assuming your magic items are, in fact, set up such that this is a problem, in which case you're probably doing something terribly wrong anyway).

All I did was follow the usual "average character wealth" table and the "magic item availability" stuff in the DM guide section. Huh, guess I either misread them or then those systems both suck their own separate barrels of cock. Anyway, that was only the beginning of the downhill on my campaign, but that is a story for another time.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:20 am

icyshadowlord wrote:Huh, guess I either misread them or then those systems both suck their own separate barrels of cock.

Well, it's Pathfinder, so the latter is by no means out of the question.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:35 am

icyshadowlord wrote:
Chamomile wrote:(assuming your magic items are, in fact, set up such that this is a problem, in which case you're probably doing something terribly wrong anyway).
All I did was follow the usual "average character wealth" table and the "magic item availability" stuff in the DM guide section. Huh, guess I either misread them or then those systems both suck their own separate barrels of cock. Anyway, that was only the beginning of the downhill on my campaign, but that is a story for another time.

Then your problem is that you are a terrible DM and also person, because you designed a shitty campaign if it was broken by anything other than calling magic items.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:39 am

It wasn't broken only by magic items, but like I said...it's a story for another time. Also, I find it amusing that instead of staying on-topic, some people just love to jump at the chance to try and troll others. Edit: I can also see why you have a signature like that, Kaelik.