Races of War

[virgil]

Considering the volume of 3+ attack routines at the gate and the more stringent limitations on spirited charge, I'm having to side with Kaelik on Pounce being a bad idea for low level. TWF on its own can already work as a 'low-grade' pounce for that purpose.

I was mainly wondering where it would fit into the whole Tome debacle, since it's a very clear and present ability in a fair number of monsters in the MM (the cat types, mostly).

[CatharzGodfoot]

Based on Barbarian precedent, pounce is worth slightly less than a feat at 1st level. Which makes it a fine [monster] feat. Considering that some D&D Joke Book feats are given out as BAB 0 abilities, I really don't see that as a problem. Blitz is still superior because it lets you do a 'spring full attack', and other interesting uses of your move actions.

What really stuck out to me as overpowered was trading AC for damage. That's some serious alchemy.

[Kaelik]

Pounce is underpowered as a level 11 ability, so a feat dedicated to it should give it much earlier.

Seriously, at level 11 a Samurai can make three + dexterity modifier attacks as an immediate action, with no iterative attack penalties, plus three more if two-weapon fighting, so you're looking at something like fourteen attacks easily (two swords, plus DEX 26), and that's not even well-optimized. Pounce is trivial next to that.

No, pounce is not underpowered at level 11. It is just fine at level 11, just like it is just fine at level 16 where Blitz gives a weaker power and people still don't think it's weak. You just think it is because you are intent on relentlessly powercreeping Tome feats.

But congratulations on showing that a single ability that basically every melee fighter is going to get at level 1 does not grant as many attacks as multiple class features synergizing with another feats abilities to grant multiple attacks on the one class that actually specializes in that.

Try it again with a Barbarian without Pounce, and a Barbarian with. Or a Tome Fighter or Knight, with and without Pounce.

Meanwhile, a single level 2 spell or a DC 15 skill check completely negates all of those attacks from the Samurai, because they are on AoOs.

[CatharzGodfoot]

If you get pounce at 1st level and it's reasonable, that does not mean that it's underpowered at level 11. If you get pounce at first level and then get the ability again, you don't get some kind of 'double pounce'. You just have an ability which happens to scale to all levels for chargers.

[Kaelik]

If you get pounce at 1st level and it's reasonable, that does not mean that it's underpowered at level 11. If you get pounce at first level and then get the ability again, you don't get some kind of 'double pounce'. You just have an ability which happens to scale to all levels for chargers.

Pounce at level 1 isn't reasonable. That's the whole point.

[CatharzGodfoot]

If you get pounce at 1st level and it's reasonable, that does not mean that it's underpowered at level 11. If you get pounce at first level and then get the ability again, you don't get some kind of 'double pounce'. You just have an ability which happens to scale to all levels for chargers.

Pounce at level 1 isn't reasonable. That's the whole point.

Why not, and when is it reasonable?

[Mask_De_H]

Wait, wasn't the ability to do a full move and keep their full attack one of the nice things fighters got taken away from them from 2e - 3e? Granted, with the stuff we can already do with Blitz and how much easier it is to get multiple attacks at L1, throwing Pounce on the pile would just get silly.

I agree with Catharz on the trading AC for damage part though, eggshells with hammers are a bad thing, the hell would we make the shell thinner and the hammer bigger for?

[IGTN]

as many attacks as multiple class features synergizing with another feats abilities to grant multiple attacks on the one class that actually specializes in that.

Meanwhile, a single level 2 spell or a DC 15 skill check completely negates all of those attacks from the Samurai, because they are on AoOs.

One class feature, and one feat granted as a preselected bonus feat: Horde Breaker for multiple attacks, and Iaijutsu Focus. Two-weapon fighting gave three attacks there; if you are using, say, a Scythe, you'd only have 11 attacks, if synergies involving something other than the stuff you get for free make you angry.

I'm not sure which skill you're referring to. Tumble just prevents movement AoOs, which those are not. Concentration prevents casting AoOs, which these are not. You can be protected from them by Invisibility, since he can't take any AoOs if you have total concealment, but that only works for total concealment, so there aren't any 2nd level spells that don't either do the same to you (Fog Cloud in the right circumstances) or go away when you attack. Your level of rules comprehension is surprisingly lacking for your confidence.

Try it again with a Barbarian without Pounce, and a Barbarian with. Or a Tome Fighter or Knight, with and without Pounce.

Tome didn't put the Ubercharger damage tools, like Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, in. You could go and get them if you want to, but generally you have better uses for your feats. Even if you play by the Tome Power Attack option qualifying as the Power Attack feat, you've still got to spend two feats to get Shock Trooper when you could be getting something awesome. I've already said my suggestion of those in my draft was a bad idea.

A Barbarian with Pounce is just like a Barbarian without, except that the former can only be shut down by cutting off a direct path between them and their target, while the latter just takes being more than 10' away. A Knight with Pounce is a bit more dangerous, since they can designate an opponent and then charge them for a full attack from having been safe, but Knights are supposed to be good at damage when not tanking (better than Barbarians, even), and such a Knight can still take ranged damage, spell damage, etc.

Pounce doesn't make you any better when you're stuff works; it just makes you harder to shut down. If there were powerful charge synergies (which my example feat put in and probably shouldn't have), then there would be a potential problem where you could stack things that were meant to increase single-attack damage onto a whole mess of attacks. . . and instagib one enemy as a full-round action. Oh, right, even the worst-case scenario isn't that bad.

I can think of a lot of ways to build a warrior where your level 1 feat would be something that didn't give you Pounce immediately, since, y'know, you can't use it at 1st level. I might see a Fiendish Brute using it, but other classes? Two-Weapon Fighting includes getting your off-hand attack on a charge in its 1st level ability, so even two-weapon fighters with a feat to spare don't need Pounce. For someone without natural weapons, you don't even want Pounce before level 6, so giving it earlier than that is really fine.

Didn't Complete Champion have a Barbarian variant that got Pounce? I don't have the book; what level do they get it at?

[Leress]

Didn't Complete Champion have a Barbarian variant that got Pounce? I don't have the book; what level do they get it at?

You gain pounce at level one, with the spiritual [lion] totem variant class feature.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Alternately, Druids can wildshape into something with Pounce at level 5 and Wizards can Polymorph people into something with Pounce at level 7. Granted, those things lack a lot of the pounce-related synergy that Tome Warriors can access, but it seems like that's the window.

[Koumei]

Seriously, the reason blitz doesn't give standard action full attacks at level 1 is because it's not a level one ability.

Yeah, at level 1, two attacks will kill you. Three will overkill you and a booming "DESTROYED!" gets called out. Now, I could see a level 6 ability being "You can make a full attack (or possibly "your BAB-derived attacks, nothing else and I don't care about your seven arms") as a standard action. This can not be combined with an AoO, a charge, a trip follow-up or your mum."

And I say this even though I suspect I'm one of the targets of this statement:

unlike everyone else ever, my goal is not to make a community feat that is twice as good as the comparable Tome Combat feat until no one ever wastes their time on the good Tome Combat feats, because community feats are always that + stuff.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure people are still allowed to take non-Tome feats in Tome games, like the "My Power Attack is >9K" ones.

[virgil]

Do the grapple maneuvers in the advanced combat section make the assailant flat-footed?

[Judging__Eagle]

Speaking as someone who played a low level Barbarian with Blitz, and two Weapon Fighting.

Pounce is overkill.

I was using a character that I only used Rage Dice on 1/2 of their TWF routine, and I was pleased with how the character did at dealing damage.

I thought that the 'damage' dice were only used on Iterative attacks only, so TWF only gave me extra swings, and some bonus Blitz damage. Not +Xd6 extra rage dice.

[CatharzGodfoot]

For the races (like gnoll and bugbear) that have '+X levels in the first Y class they take', I assume they only get +X levels of Y progression, rather than automagically gaining a bunch of extra class levels. Is that correct?


Also, I'm writing up a few more advanced races. Please let me know if you see anything wrong with the following:

Doppelganger
You're a body-snatching super spy.
[*]Base hit dice: 4d8
[*]Base attack bonus: +4
[*]Saves: Fortitude +1, Reflex +4, Will +4
[*]Starting skills: 7 * (4 + Int modifier) skill points
[*]Ability scores: Dexterity +2, Charisma +2 (this really breaks from the given, but the given don't make much sense)
[*]Type: Monstrous Humanoid (shapechanger)
[*]Base speed: 30'
[*]Darkvision: 60'
[*]Natural armor: +4
[*]Mental barrier: Immune to Charm and Sleep effects
[*]Detect thoughts (Su): as the spell, at will
[*]Human form (Su): as the spell, at will
[*]Natural weaponry: slam 1d6
[*]Deceitful: Doppelgangers gain a +4 racial bonus to Bluff and Disguise checks.
[*]Automatic languages: Common


Lizardfolk
Sapient monitors. Their natural weaponry and impressive natural armor help to make up for their lower base attack bonus.
[*]Starting hit dice: 2d8
[*]Base attack bonus: +1
[*]Saves: Fortitude +0, Reflex +3, Will +0
[*]Starting skills: 5 * (4 + Int modifier) skill points
[*]Ability scores: Constitution +2, Strength +2, Intelligence -2
[*]Type: Humanoid (reptilian)
[*]Natural armor: +5
[*]Athletic: Lizardfolk gain a +4 racial bonus to Balance, Jump, and Swim checks.
[*]Hold breath: A lizardfolk can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning
[*]Natural Weaponry: 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d4)
[*]Weapons & armor training: A lizardperson is automatically proficient with simple weapons and shields
[*]Automatic languages: Common, Draconic

Satyr
"He's a fairy from the waist down"
Half-goat, half- human alcoholics that still manage to get all the chicks.
[*]Starting hit dice: 3d8
[*]Base attack bonus: +2 (medium)
[*]Saves: Fortitude +1, Reflex +3, Will +3
[*]Starting skills: 6 * (6 + Int modifier) skill points
[*]Ability scores: Dexterity +2, Charisma +2
[*]Type: Fey
[*]Size: Medium
[*]Base speed: 40'
[*]Low-light vision
[*]Natural armor: +4
[*]Damage reduction: 5/Iron
[*]Skilled: Satyrs gain a +2 racial bonus to Perform checks.
[*]Natural weaponry: gore 1d6
[*]Weapons training: Proficiency with simple weapons and short bows
[*]Automatic languages: Sylvan

[Hicks]

Pounce is pointless without iterative or bonus attacks, but Two Weapon Fighting provides a bonus attack (at level 1) with your off-hand that can be used whenever you attack, and stacks with Whirlwind. Honestly, a Barbarian will kill nigh any level appropriate enemy dead in 2 hits; Why overkill one target with 4 attacks (pounce + TWF) at 6 BAB when you can hit everyone you can get to with 30' of movement and still murder them, in the face?

Knights with pounce are weaksauce, because the most hard-core Knight isn't one who is in your grill, wreaking your shit (though that is both an iconic and valid way to play one), but on a flying mount, shooting arrows at you. Smart knights don't pick up Horde Breaker, TWF, Insightful Strike, and Whirlwind, but do snag Blitz, Point Blank Shot, Sniper, and Hunter; swift death, from 100+ feet away.

[Maxus]

Pounce is pointless without iterative or bonus attacks, but Two Weapon Fighting provides a bonus attack (at level 1) with your off-hand that can be used whenever you attack, and stacks with Whirlwind. Honestly, a Barbarian will kill nigh any level appropriate enemy dead in 2 hits; Why overkill one target with 4 attacks (pounce + TWF) at 6 BAB when you can hit everyone you can get to with 30' of movement and still murder them, in the face?

Knights with pounce are weaksauce, because the most hard-core Knight isn't one who is in your grill, wreaking your shit (though that is both an iconic and valid way to play one), but on a flying mount, shooting arrows at you. Smart knights don't pick up Horde Breaker, TWF, Insightful Strike, and Whirlwind, but do snag Blitz, Point Blank Shot, Sniper, and Hunter; swift death, from 100+ feet away.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the Rage Dice don't stack with TWF or Whirlwind because RD only applies to attacks derived from BAB, due to the wording. They may work on the AoOs you get from BAB, though.

[Hicks]

I never said Rage Dice stacked with either. Blitz and Power Attack will carry you through to victory; with a full power attack at 6 BAB with a 6 (Blitz) + 12 (Power Attack) + 2 (Combat School) + 2 (Rage) + 2 (Magic) + 4 Strength (18) + 4.5 (Battle Axe) on a TWF Whirlwind should snag you a cool 65 average damage if both hit (+8 attack).

• The list of who is totally killed
  An equal level Barbarian with 18 Constitution has 8.5 hp left.
  An equal level Knight with 18 Constitution has 6.5 hp left
  An equal level Fighter with 18 Constitution is at -3.5 hp.
  An equal HD Cleric, Druid, or d8 HD or less monster with 18 Constitution or less is Dead, at -11.5 hp or under.
  Any stock undead of 9 HD or less is destroyed

Seriously, one hit will basically cut an equal CR opponnent's HP in half. Pounce is only effective against a single, higher level foe with more HD and/or DR/Fuck You, But by then you could just Whirlwind + stuff to the offending monster for 65 damage, then full attack for 151 in the next round. problem solved.

[Kaelik]

Knights with pounce are weaksauce, because the most hard-core Knight isn't one who is in your grill, wreaking your shit (though that is both an iconic and valid way to play one), but on a flying mount, shooting arrows at you. Smart knights don't pick up Horde Breaker, TWF, Insightful Strike, and Whirlwind, but do snag Blitz, Point Blank Shot, Sniper, and Hunter; swift death, from 100+ feet away.

Actually, A Pounce specced Knight would do much more damage,

The whole point of Pounce specced is that you can start 60-80ft away, then when they fail to attack you, Pounce their ass for more attacks and more damage per attack than the Archer Knight. IE, much more fucking damage.

I never said Rage Dice stacked with either. Blitz and Power Attack will carry you through to victory; with a full power attack at 6 BAB with a 6 (Blitz) + 12 (Power Attack) + 2 (Combat School) + 2 (Rage) + 2 (Magic) + 4 Strength (18) + 4.5 (Battle Axe) on a TWF Whirlwind should snag you a cool 65 average damage if both hit (+8 attack).

• The list of who is totally killed
  An equal level Barbarian with 18 Constitution has 8.5 hp left.
  An equal level Knight with 18 Constitution has 6.5 hp left
  An equal level Fighter with 18 Constitution is at -3.5 hp.
  An equal HD Cleric, Druid, or d8 HD or less monster with 18 Constitution or less is Dead, at -11.5 hp or under.
  Any stock undead of 9 HD or less is destroyed

1) Except if any of those has any ability at all. Like foil, or AoO that stop your movement, or spells.
2) Power attacking for full? Really? I see you are not familiar with this thing called "AC" it turns out, in Tome games, some character have enough AC that 1d20+8 is not likely to hit. (Though actually, you should have +10 to hit).
3) You forgot the 3d6 Rage dice on one of those attacks.

Also, a level 6 Knight with Pounce (let's assume it's a feat that grants no other benefits, instead of one of these bullshit ones, for simplicity) Blitz, TWF, Combat School, has the same Str, and choose to have a bite attack.

4.5+6 Blitz +2 Magic +2 Combat School +4 Str +21 Challenge Dice x4
+ 3.5 Bite +6 Blitz +2 Combat School +2 Str +21 Dice = 192.5 damage.

And that's with +14 on initial attacks.

Why is this character a chump to you when he performs better than a Barbarian?

[RobbyPants]

I was reading the section on Converting Monsters Into Characters, using Method 1 and I was curious if I did it right to create an Erinyes.

So, the base stats are: Str 21, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 20

Subtracting the elite array highest to lowest and rounding down leaves me with: Str +6 Dex +6 Con +8 Int +6 Wis +8 Cha +8

It's CR 8, +1 for the [AWESOME] tag makes it a 9th level PC. Do you use 9 Outsider Hit Dice for this, or am I supposed to find a "role" for the monster and give it 9 HD according to that?

Other than that, it would get all of the usual natural armor and other abilities, right?

[angelfromanotherpin]

You could just run it straight as a 9th-level PC; or you can adjust its HD if they differ from the character's level to keep BAB and Saves in line, but since the Erinyes already has 9 Outsider HD, it seems like there's no need.

But yes, it gets all of it's MM statblock.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Subtracting the elite array highest to lowest and rounding down leaves me with: Str +6 Dex +6 Con +8 Int +6 Wis +8 Cha +8

For aesthetics I'd give it +7's across the board, but that might be a little bit crazy.

It's CR 8, +1 for the [AWESOME] tag makes it a 9th level PC. Do you use 9 Outsider Hit Dice for this, or am I supposed to find a "role" for the monster and give it 9 HD according to that?

CR 8, +1 because it's a PC, +1 because it's [Awesome], for level 10. It should have 10d8 HD with a BAB of +10 and +7s for all saves. Remember that Dodge and Mobility are bonus feats. The SR should scale to level +10.

[RobbyPants]

CR 8, +1 because it's a PC, +1 because it's [Awesome], for level 10. It should have 10d8 HD with a BAB of +10 and +7s for all saves. Remember that Dodge and Mobility are bonus feats. The SR should scale to level +10.

So, I knew you added +1 to the CR because it's a PC, but I guess I thought that was the [Awesome] type. Is that second +1 because it's an outsider or something?

Also, I get subtracting the elite array from the base stats to make like the modifiers come from that instead of a bunch of 10s and 11s; however, if you were to play a game with a 32 point buy or something, do you still just subtract off the 25 point elite array? That makes the most sense to me as all of the other non-monster PCs will be getting a boost for a higher point buy.

[CatharzGodfoot]

CR 8, +1 because it's a PC, +1 because it's [Awesome], for level 10. It should have 10d8 HD with a BAB of +10 and +7s for all saves. Remember that Dodge and Mobility are bonus feats. The SR should scale to level +10.

So, I knew you added +1 to the CR because it's a PC, but I guess I thought that was the [Awesome] type. Is that second +1 because it's an outsider or something?

Most outsiders, dragons, and a few other monsters are unaccountably better than their CRs would indicate. They have an invisible 'awesome' tag which lowers their CR by about 1 from what it should be. Being a PC comes with a whole 'nother set of benefits, generally along the lines of specialization (better feat choices and attribute assignments) and gear.

Also, I get subtracting the elite array from the base stats to make like the modifiers come from that instead of a bunch of 10s and 11s; however, if you were to play a game with a 32 point buy or something, do you still just subtract off the 25 point elite array? That makes the most sense to me as all of the other non-monster PCs will be getting a boost for a higher point buy.

Yeah. Just like you don't change the attribute adjustments for being an elf when you change the point buy.

[Judging__Eagle]

Robbypants, that's very handy. I've got a player who is an Erinyes in my current game, and I haven't finished converting her stats into PC stats.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah. Just like you don't change the attribute adjustments for being an elf when you change the point buy.

Thanks for the clarification.

Robbypants, that's very handy. I've got a player who is an Erinyes in my current game, and I haven't finished converting her stats into PC stats.

No problem. In fact, it was that exact post of yours that I read that made me think of it. You said you had to let him play it by the book, but you'd write up something later, and I remembered the section in RoW.

Let me know how the PC works out.