Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[LeadPal]

Gah, why is the pirate AP so fucking boring... I'm getting so tired of making Sailor checks....

I have exactly the same problem with it. We all know the boat isn't going to fucking sink no matter how badly we tank the rolls, so it just adds like thirty minutes of dead time to every session. We've been pleading with the GM to just use MTP.

[Rawbeard]

Is this the one where plot only continues when you get certain reputation ratings that you literaly get from grinding?

[Username17]

The Air-Born, Earth-Born, and Water-Born Sorcery feats let a sorcerer swap their casting and sorcerer ability stat from Cha to Dex, Con, or Str, respectively, at the cost of forbidding a school and an element. I don't actually know how bad a limitation that is or if it can be worked around, but I remember some of the outrage on this board for the scarred witch doctor racial archetype, so I figured these had some cheese potential. I know this doesn't fit with your necromancy idea, I just don't know where else to put these feats I stumbled over and they were sorta related to adding Cha to save DCs....

No, the downside is taking a godawful Elemental bloodline.

Or having the appropriate elemental subtype. But Genasi in Pathfinder don't have elemental subtypes, and worse than that, they don't even synergize with those fucking feats. The Earth Bloodline lets you run your sorcery off of Constitution, but in Pathfinder an Earth badtouched character gets +2 Strength and Wisdom at the cost of -2 Charisma. And one of their main "abilities" is the right to ignore the Charisma penalty to sorcerer casting if they take the shitty elemental bloodline.

It's a giant clusterfuck where literally every single part of it anti-synergizes with every other part of it. It's like it was written MadLibs style, with every piece submitted by people who couldn't read the work in progress.

-Username17

[Hicks]

From an outsider looking in, why doesn't every sorcerer ever have elemental bloodline (water) with Water-borne sorcery as their first two feats, then hulk out with size increasing spells to max out their strength modifier and cast color sprays, charm monsters, and other save or lose spells with a DC of Fuck Off?

[Ice9]

It's a third party feat. Which means that from the perspective of many gaming groups, it's about as official as making something up, writing it on a sticky note, and attaching it to your character sheet.

And I can't exactly disagree, although really the same thing is true about a lot of official material, as far as quality goes.

[LeadPal]

Is this the one where plot only continues when you get certain reputation ratings that you literaly get from grinding?

Yeah. NPCs constantly tell us that we need to do odd jobs like kill giant spiders and collect sahuagin asses before they'll be willing to help us pirate. We've mostly refused to do anything that uninteresting, and so we've spent most of our time dicking around. The group has great chemistry and the GM is decent, but the adventure itself is awful.

[Koumei]

From an outsider looking in, why doesn't every sorcerer ever have elemental bloodline (water) with Water-borne sorcery as their first two feats, then hulk out with size increasing spells to max out their strength modifier and cast color sprays, charm monsters, and other save or lose spells with a DC of Fuck Off?

I thought that at first, but then I remembered that you'd need your size boost to last 24 hours or more for it to affect your spells per day or Save DC. They used a weird and stupid rule to bandaid other weird and stupid rules, and now you have a sort of paper mache of weird and stupid.

[ishy]

I thought that at first, but then I remembered that you'd need your size boost to last 24 hours or more for it to affect your spells per day or Save DC. They used a weird and stupid rule to bandaid other weird and stupid rules, and now you have a sort of paper mache of weird and stupid.

That is no longer the case.

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do.

Yeah. NPCs constantly tell us that we need to do odd jobs like kill giant spiders and collect sahuagin asses before they'll be willing to help us pirate. We've mostly refused to do anything that uninteresting, and so we've spent most of our time dicking around. The group has great chemistry and the GM is decent, but the adventure itself is awful.

Only just finished the first book. The rum ration system is awful. I wonder how the cook even survives for 2 weeks, since he's always drinking rum.

[hogarth]

Gah, why is the pirate AP so fucking boring... I'm getting so tired of making Sailor checks....

And then if you complain about the poor implementation on the Paizo boards, James Jacobs generally reacts like: "Well, I guess everyone hates pirates. We're never doing a pirate adventure ever again!!!!"

[GâtFromKI]

That is no longer the case.

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do.

Huh?!?

I though it the temp. bonus rule was here for two reasons : avoid bugs with Cha/day abilities like lay on hand (and most classes have such ability) and avoid rayon-of-enfeeblement-paralysis.

So now I have no idea how this interact with Cha/day abilities like lay on hand.

[Longes]

Is this the one where plot only continues when you get certain reputation ratings that you literaly get from grinding?

Yeah. NPCs constantly tell us that we need to do odd jobs like kill giant spiders and collect sahuagin asses before they'll be willing to help us pirate. We've mostly refused to do anything that uninteresting, and so we've spent most of our time dicking around. The group has great chemistry and the GM is decent, but the adventure itself is awful.

Can you guys elaborate a bit? I was thinking about running it.

[Longes]

Is this the one where plot only continues when you get certain reputation ratings that you literaly get from grinding?

Yeah. NPCs constantly tell us that we need to do odd jobs like kill giant spiders and collect sahuagin asses before they'll be willing to help us pirate. We've mostly refused to do anything that uninteresting, and so we've spent most of our time dicking around. The group has great chemistry and the GM is decent, but the adventure itself is awful.

Can you guys elaborate a bit? I was thinking about running it.

[Paizil]

The big issues are with the first two books.

Book 1 goes through a month or so of being a slave pirate. They masterfully simulate the drudgery by requiring at least a half dozen rolls per person per day to resolve. Work assignments also split the party, and being level 1 it is likely you won't have the skills or abilities to interact with the mechanisms and even if you do it can be a failure parade. I'd recommend ditching it after a couple of days and just doing the group scenes. There is also a mandatory rum ration that will kill the crew in a couple of weeks through Constitution damage, and a drinking "game" that can only end through forfeit or death.

Book 2 starts with a short railroad and then opens into a sort of sandbox full of scenes you are supposed to run, many of which are grindy piracy (randomly see ship, long pointless chase scene, fight captain on poop deck, repeat). Making things worse you are expressly forbidden from visiting the not-Caribbean and have to stick to the boring area between it and not-Colonial-South-Africa. There is a plot that links a few of the scenes with the finale, but none of it is presented to the players and anyone who could explain commits suicide immediately upon capture (thankfully, this also keeps the players from knowing about the consensual fish on human sex). Even if you finish all the plot you need a certain amount of "Infamy" and "Plunder" to start the next book, which might mean more grinding.

You can certainly make something fun out of both of them, but it could be very tedious if run without alteration. After you get through those books it is a pretty standard AP, with all that that entails.

[GâtFromKI]

Book 1 goes through a month or so of being a slave pirate. They masterfully simulate the drudgery by requiring at least a half dozen rolls per person per day to resolve.

So that's a rollfeast with 200 roll per player ? And someone though it was a good idea ?

[Rawbeard]

On Meth it is.

[NineInchNall]

Huh?!?

I though it the temp. bonus rule was here for two reasons : avoid bugs with Cha/day abilities like lay on hand (and most classes have such ability) and avoid rayon-of-enfeeblement-paralysis.

So now I have no idea how this interact with Cha/day abilities like lay on hand.

That isn't even a change from 3.5.

When a cleric has a temporary bonus to his Charisma
score, does it affect his turning check or turning damage?
Does it change the number of times he can turn or rebuke
per day?

Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability
score has the same effect as a permanent one. For example, a
cleric with a temporary +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma
(such as from eagle’s splendor) adds 2 to his turning check and
to his turning damage while the spell was in effect, since his
Charisma modifier is 2 points higher than it was before.

Things get a little stickier when talking about powers with
daily limits, such as turn/rebuke undead or lay on hands. (Hold
on, because this gets worse before it gets better.) In this case, a
change to the key ability score indeed affects the daily limit—
in the example above, the cleric would gain 2 additional
turn/rebuke attempts per day—but these aren’t just “free” uses.

Here’s why:

Assume the cleric above has a normal Charisma score of
12, granting him 4 turn attempts per day (3 + 1 for Cha bonus).
Casting eagle’s splendor increases his Charisma to 16, which
would grant 6 attempts per day. At the end of the spell,
however, his daily limit would drop back down to 4 attempts.
At that point, the player must compare the number of daily uses
expended to the daily limit to see if any still remain.
Here’s how that might work in play. Our cleric turns
undead twice, then casts eagle’s splendor right before a big
fight with a horde of zombies. During the duration of the spell,
he makes four more turning checks. When the spell ends, he
compares his new daily limit (4) to the number of attempts used
(6)—whoops, no turns left. Hope all the undead have been
destroyed, because even if the cleric cast eagle’s splendor
again, he wouldn’t have any more turning attempts available,
since he’s already used all 6 of his allotted attempts. If he could
increase his Charisma to 18, he’d “gain” one more turning
attempt (since he has now used 6 out of his allotted 7 daily
attempts), usable only during the duration of the Charismaboosting
effect.

The same is true of the paladin’s lay on hands ability. If the
paladin gains a temporary Charisma boost, her total capacity of
healing via lay on hands improves accordingly, but she must
keep track of the healing “used up” to see if any remains after
the boost ends.

Temporary ability reductions (such as penalties or damage)
work similarly. When applying a reduction, do the math as if a
bonus had just elapsed to see if any daily uses are left, and
reverse that when the reduction goes away to see what (if
anything) the character regains. If our cleric is hit by touch of
idiocy and suffers a –4 penalty to Charisma, his daily limit of
turning attempts is reduced from 4 to 2; if he’s already used 2
or more, he has none available as long as the spell’s effect lasts.

This seems more complicated than it actually is. As long as
you remember that the important number to track is not uses
remaining, but uses expended, everything else should fall into
place

Ray of enfeeblement can't cause paralysis because the spell specifically says it can't reduce the subject's strength below one.

That is no longer the case.

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do.

I don't think what you linked/quoted actually answers the question. Remember, in 3.5 temp bonuses were supposed to work just like permanent ones, but even then:

Do ability enhancing items (such as the headband of
intellect, cloak of charisma, and periapt of wisdom) grant
bonus spells to the appropriate spellcasters? The spells
these items are based on would seem to prohibit it, but the
only things specifically addressed in the item descriptions
are skill points.

Yes, you can get extra bonus spells if you have an item that
increases the ability score that governs your spellcasting. To
get the extra bonus spells, you must wear the item while resting
to regain spells and all through your initial daily preparations
for spellcasting. (Even characters who don’t prepare spells need
to meditate a little while at the beginning of the day; see Daily
Readying of spells under the Sorcerers and bards section of
Chapter 10 in the PH.)

If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell
slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you
have of the appropriate levels.

[K]

Gah, why is the pirate AP so fucking boring... I'm getting so tired of making Sailor checks....

And then if you complain about the poor implementation on the Paizo boards, James Jacobs generally reacts like: "Well, I guess everyone hates pirates. We're never doing a pirate adventure ever again!!!!"

I don't really know why he thought that being a slave and making a bunch of checks you couldn't possibly make is fun.

I'm five sessions in and have made 200 XP. I'm not even leveling fast enough to go off the rails.

[Rawbeard]

are those like one hour sessions?

[ishy]

That is no longer the case.

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do.

I don't think what you linked/quoted actually answers the question. Remember, in 3.5 temp bonuses were supposed to work just like permanent ones, but even then:

It did answer the question. I'm posting in a pathfinder thread not a 3.5 one. Pathfinder completely changed how ability bonuses, penalties, damage etc. works. And that Pathfinder FAQ changed it again.

[momothefiddler]

I can certainly see the argument that a prepared caster would need to take the appropriate amount of time to prepare new spell slots granted by a temporary ability bonus, but the argument that they'd need to rest to 'refresh' the slots (or that spontaneous casters would have to do anything but cast with the slots) flies in the face of the cleric uses per day example. When you're out of Channels, you have to rest to regain them, but a new one can still be used without a rest, so why should a spell slot work any differently? Anyway, those are both 3.5 faqs and as ishy said the whole mess is a different whole mess in PF.

Given the PF faq, though, and the emphasis on prepared slots being x separate 1-use things, not x uses per day of one thing (like spontaneous slots might be and Channel Energy definitely is), is there anything that prevents a Wizard from carrying around a Headband of Vast Intellect Intelligence +2, putting it on, preparing a spell in the granted slot, casting the spell, taking off the headband, putting it back on, preparing a spell, etc? I mean it's a turnaround of 15 minutes for the one spell but is theoretically unlimited, since "uses of spell slot 92B" do not count as "uses of spell slot gamma-6", or you'd be able to prepare 4 different spells and use any of them in any combination that added up to 4 instead of using each once.

Am I missing something there?

[Username17]

I can certainly see the argument that a prepared caster would need to take the appropriate amount of time to prepare new spell slots granted by a temporary ability bonus, but the argument that they'd need to rest to 'refresh' the slots (or that spontaneous casters would have to do anything but cast with the slots) flies in the face of the cleric uses per day example. When you're out of Channels, you have to rest to regain them, but a new one can still be used without a rest, so why should a spell slot work any differently? Anyway, those are both 3.5 faqs and as ishy said the whole mess is a different whole mess in PF.

Given the PF faq, though, and the emphasis on prepared slots being x separate 1-use things, not x uses per day of one thing (like spontaneous slots might be and Channel Energy definitely is), is there anything that prevents a Wizard from carrying around a Headband of Vast Intellect Intelligence +2, putting it on, preparing a spell in the granted slot, casting the spell, taking off the headband, putting it back on, preparing a spell, etc? I mean it's a turnaround of 15 minutes for the one spell but is theoretically unlimited, since "uses of spell slot 92B" do not count as "uses of spell slot gamma-6", or you'd be able to prepare 4 different spells and use any of them in any combination that added up to 4 instead of using each once.

Am I missing something there?

Pathfinder rulings long ago passed the incomprehensibility threshold, but the way it works in 3rd edition is that a slot has to be opened before it can be filled. And the opening process requires eight hours of rest.

So when you hot swap the headband of intellect, you don't gain an open slot, you gain the right to open a slot the next time you rest.

-Username17

[GâtFromKI]

Ray of enfeeblement can't cause paralysis because the spell specifically says it can't reduce the subject's strength below one.

It can on an armored opponent.

Well, actually, the rules don't even explain what happens if you wear a full plate with Str 1. So I guess the game freezes and you have to reboot.

[momothefiddler]

Hm. Okay. So for 3.5:

I can certainly see the argument that a prepared caster would need to take the appropriate amount of time to prepare new spell slots granted by a temporary ability bonus, but the argument that they'd need to rest to 'refresh' the slots (or that spontaneous casters would have to do anything but cast with the slots) flies in the face of the cleric uses per day example. When you're out of Channels, you have to rest to regain them, but a new one can still be used without a rest, so why should a spell slot work any differently? Anyway, those are both 3.5 faqs and as ishy said the whole mess is a different whole mess in PF.

Given the PF faq, though, and the emphasis on prepared slots being x separate 1-use things, not x uses per day of one thing (like spontaneous slots might be and Channel Energy definitely is), is there anything that prevents a Wizard from carrying around a Headband of Vast Intellect Intelligence +2, putting it on, preparing a spell in the granted slot, casting the spell, taking off the headband, putting it back on, preparing a spell, etc? I mean it's a turnaround of 15 minutes for the one spell but is theoretically unlimited, since "uses of spell slot 92B" do not count as "uses of spell slot gamma-6", or you'd be able to prepare 4 different spells and use any of them in any combination that added up to 4 instead of using each once.

Am I missing something there?

Pathfinder rulings long ago passed the incomprehensibility threshold, but the way it works in 3rd edition is that a slot has to be opened before it can be filled. And the opening process requires eight hours of rest.

So when you hot swap the headband of intellect, you don't gain an open slot, you gain the right to open a slot the next time you rest.

-Username17

Aside: Does this mean that until you first sleep after leveling up, you don't have any higher-level spells?
Is this specifically for spell slots? Why do spontaneous slots work differently from Channels? Are spontaneous casters technically also given x separate 1-use abilities like prepared casters, except they're interchangeable? I had always viewed it as "an 11th level sorcerer can cast x 5th-level spells per day", but what you're saying indicates that it's technically more like "an 11th level sorcerer has x spell slots that can each be used to cast 1 5th-level spell per day" and this situation (temporary Cha bonus) is one of the only times the distinction matters?

This feels awfully inelegant, but I think that's just familiarity because it does match up more closely with the wizard and it does provide the expected results. On the other hand, it would imply that sorcerers can benefit from the hot-swap in PF without any time in between.

That said, does anyone know if that's how it works in PF? I presume if I asked a developer they'd say "no because I said so" but are there actual rules against it? It appears that rest is only required to prepare a spell in a slot that has already held a spell since your last rest, indicating that a completely new slot is immediately available. Similarly, a Sorcerer or Bard needs 8 hours rest and 15 minutes prep or else "the character does not regain the spell slots she used up the day before" - indicating, again, that a fresh slot is immediately available.

[Pixels]

Ray of enfeeblement can't cause paralysis because the spell specifically says it can't reduce the subject's strength below one.

It can on an armored opponent.

Well, actually, the rules don't even explain what happens if you wear a full plate with Str 1. So I guess the game freezes and you have to reboot.

Given that a character can barely move while heavy load < stuff carried <= 2x heavy load, it is a fair assumption that they are immobile with more than that. But being immobile is not the same as being paralyzed, and they can likely still defend themselves.

[NineInchNall]

It did answer the question. I'm posting in a pathfinder thread not a 3.5 one. Pathfinder completely changed how ability bonuses, penalties, damage etc. works. And that Pathfinder FAQ changed it again.

Yes, temporary bonuses are treated the same as permanent bonuses, but that just pushes the question back. Is there a part in PF (FAQ or otherwise) where it says what happens with available spell slots when you acquire a permanent bonus/penalty/modification to your casting stat in the middle of the day? 'Cause that seems to be the relevant point, but I'm not familiar enough with PF to know where to look.