Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

[fectin]

White Wolf can't manage to use the same mechanics twice. Fuck if I know what their special counting means this time.

Are 10s two successes or roll again? Are ones -1 success, or cancel a success, or do they just count towards a botch? Is the TN a "roll over" number or a "roll at least" number?

[Prak]

The basic WoD dice system manages to stay pretty constant, it's Attributes plus Ability d10s (plus equipment dice, but those rarely come up), rolled at a variable TN that is "roll at least this." 1s remove successes, 10s add a die if you're rolling for something you have a specialty in. If you roll no hits and any number of ones, it's a botch.

Basically all I'm doing is codifying a TN saying "fuck you, you don't modify this," and saying that 10s are always awesome, not just sometimes if you're lucky.

[...You Lost Me]

Yeah, anydice is glorious. Here's an image of 10 dice in that dicepool, and the probabilities of each result.

[fectin]

That is pretty nice.

[Judging__Eagle]

I'm back to tweaking WoD because people are more willing to play WoD+House Rules than AS so, say you have a dice pool of 6, TN 6, 1s subtract, 10s count double, and lets say the person writing this completely tuned out their high school algebra class when it got to statistics, what is the statistical chance of getting 1, 2, 3, etc hits?

I weep and feel sorry for you. Your players seem worse than self-blinkering 2e grognards, if that's even possible.

I've started my... fifth* After Sundown (now remixed engine) game at this point since I've started playing around with where I wanted the campaign to be set; and while I'll admit it's been a long process before I was able to get this current game started, it's not like players didn't want to play because of any degree of truculence on their part.

*[the others being: Fantasy Kitchensink Bronze Age Shurupak; Futuristic Post-Apoc Prague Techno-Techno City Shaft; Post-WWII NATO agents in China; War F P-A South Africa; with the current being: 'Modern' Earth After Sundown]

Here's a question that I've got for After Sundown gaining of Elder and Universal powers:

One of the players really likes spell casting; and has spent the bulk of their In Media Res resources on "magical libraries"; which I'm fine with b/c the AS Magic system is probably one the best balanced I've seen anywhere. The fact that they are an immortal Khaibit of ancient Kush (Egypt) who only recently left his Lair-Library on Mictlan to begin wandering the Earth with the rest of the band is interesting, as well as explains why they are Anachronistic, and have all Basic/Advanced Sorceries at their disposal (and yes, that does give them a pile of bonuses; but the two combat monsters of the party are just as ridiculous).

The session I was running last night involved this character summoning the spirit of a ghost necromancer in order to learn the Necromancy path Elder Power "Resurrection". The ghost said that it would; but only after its magical tomb was restored

After travelling to China, going to Tibet, entering the cliff side burial site, and stepping into the depths of the Frozen Shadows, the group proceeded to clean up the Ghost's grave site, sculpt them a new Pagoda tomb-cover out of local stone, place it in site, and perform a traditional Buddhist funeral ceremony (with the hits for these effects going from 6 for the tomb cover to 8 for the ceremony; I felt they did a good enough jorb); the Ghost was called back, and no longer fettered by a disturbed gravesite was able to travel freely in Mictlan again (the draining of tomb's power as a fetter that followed was what I counted as the relic being 'destroyed' to gain the Elder power).

So, I've got 'some' sort of rubric for handling the granting of Elder powers; the group has to jump through a pile of hoops, and kill a creature, or drain/destroy a relic.

The more annoying question is this:

If the PCs want to 'share' their Universal powers with each other; would sitting in a tub (specially made, plus performing a researched ritual per power trying to be taught) of one of the other's blood (say 10 wounds worth; which would kill a creature; but not necessarily if the group also has near-infinite Cleanse the Body (i.e. healing)) begin to be sufficient; or should it be harder?

Right now I'm thinking that it's a ritual that will take a least a day to perform; and has to be done once per creature that will be gaining a single power. Which would limit the group to having to think about who will gain which power at a time.

[Grek]

Gift of Health already lets you "share" Vigor and Revive the Flesh after a fashion. It seems reasonable that Elder level Path of Blood and a level 5 Destiny might let you make vials of blood that are imbued with one hit of some other basic discipline. For actually giving someone a discipline permanently, no, that breaks character advancement in half.

[Judging__Eagle]

The best in game explanation is that people have tried doing stuff like that, but it never works, and the original creature has to die for it to 'take' in the new creature.

I find it interesting that while Sorceries potentially have more oomph, they are also easier to learn; but everyone wants some amount of several Universal powers.

[Kaelik]

JE, just to be clear, you are an idiot and you don't know the rules to After Sundown.

You don't learn sorceries just from having books with them in it. You still have to draw a "learn a new XXX power/sorcery" card from the advancement deck before you can learn them.

So that character that knows all basic and advanced sorceries... that is not a fucking In Media Res character, that is an In Media Res character + 50 advancements.

Sorceries are harder to learn than universals, because you have to have the book and draw the card, where universals you only have to draw the card.

[Judging__Eagle]

Well, then that's an annoying game question that I need answered, as well as the purpose and expected use of a character's comprehensive magical library.

Since reading the actual magical book and magical library entries in the After Sundown rulebook state that you can learn some new Sorceries with them; but don't say that this only happens if you have also karmically advanced to be able to do so.

[Edit: I'm assuming that the section for the Necronomicon that reads "... , so that if they are afforded the opportunity to learn a sorcerous discipline, they can choose to pursue onf the the sorcerous disciplines described in the pages." implies that?]

Also, if I recall correctly, it should be +60 Advancements, not 50.

There are 3 Schools of Sorcery; 5 Paths each. Each path has 2 Basic powers, and 2 Advanced Powers. [4*5 is 20 Basic/Advanced per Sorcery; 60 across all three types; with 30 Elder Powers on top of that].

The very structured nature of the project makes figuring that out pretty easy, and doesn't require my having to count them out.

What I was previously saying to the player was that they could cast any spells while at their libraries that they didn't have on their character sheet.

Then decided to let them have them away from the sources.

Yes, it's powerful, however I'm realizing that Universal powers are potentially much better; the character can only cast one spell or so per round; their skills and their power points are also limiting factors on their using Sorceries.

[Kaelik]

Also, if I recall correctly, it should be +60 Advancements, not 50.

Every character starts with at least some Sorceries. I don't care if it is plus 60 or +50 or +52 or +58. The point is that you gave one player a huge pile of advancements.

[erik]

There is one section which makes me suspect that you may be able to use Sorceries (or even Universals) without actually having learned them yet.

From the Karmic advancement (p170):

The High Priestess	Learn a Basic or Advanced Sorcery you used this chapter
The Empress	Learn a Basic or Advanced Universal Power you used this chapter.

Presumably the way to use powers that you have not yet learned would be via a Destiny/Magic Item, like a Tome/Library.

So yeah, I'd say they could use Libraries to perform sorcery at their lair or whatever, but they would not count as having the Sorcery for bonus purposes nor would they be able to do that sorcery on the fly wherever.

As for just learning them because you have the Destiny and you haven't spent any other resource to learn them. Um, I suspect not. That would be ridonkulous. The character described does not sound like In Media Res. Sounds like Power Fantasy through and through.

[Chamomile]

My impression of those cards is that they would be a new Basic or Advanced power in a magical Discipline (or whatever you call them in AS) you used this adventure.

[erik]

My impression of those cards is that they would be a new Basic or Advanced power in a magical Discipline (or whatever you call them in AS) you used this adventure.

Ah, right. My brain must have been offline last night. That interp does sound very reasonable, though the blurb is ambiguous.

[Judging__Eagle]

So yeah, I'd say they could use Libraries to perform sorcery at their lair or whatever, but they would not count as having the Sorcery for bonus purposes nor would they be able to do that sorcery on the fly wherever.

Yeah, that's how I was thinking of handling it.

As for "power fantasy" characters, some of the other members of the party can be pretty power fantasy as well.

In the first combat that I ran at the end of the second session; the PCs who are more "combat" specialized were pretty potent.

When in Warform + Giant Size, the Icard has enough Strength to just buy the soak hits needed to soak assault rifle fire. While he was successfully hit due to the +3 dice that Automatics weapons get, they simply did buy 5 soak hits; and didn't care.

While the Werewolf turns into a wolf 5 metres tall at the shoulder (Animal Form, Giant Size, War Form) and bites human sized targets in half (dealing as much as 20 damage with their bite) ; and can run up and down cliffs (Clinging), and was able to cover 220 meters in their second initiative pass (via athletics checks, they don't actually have nimble feet like the Icarid does) to cut off the last Mutant bandit.

Now, granted, both of those characters blew through 90% of their Power Points to do this; and it was around dawn that this happened.

So the rest of the day is going to leave the Werewolf pretty neutered; and the Icarid is going to be taking his deadly liquid metal medication and resting the next four hours.

[fectin]

So, I'm apparently playing in "a 3.5 game with 3.0 flavor". Any ideas what that means?

Also, what were the major changes aside from skill shuffling, ranger and monk rewickered, some spells changed, and wings of flying price increase?

[Judging__Eagle]

That means so little and so much Fectin.

3.5 changed how DR works (typed vs sufficient magic bonus); multiple spells rules; weapon size rules; classes; removed certain skills; and piles of other stuff I can't even begin to recall.

[Kaelik]

As for "power fantasy" characters, some of the other members of the party can be pretty power fantasy as well.

No, those other characters are strong combat monster in media res characters who don't have access to all sorts of things, like piles of minions, utility abilities, information gathering, and in many cases, ranged attacks.

Yes, it is possible to create a combat brute. That's great, but that doesn't magically change the fact that some combat brutes are legal in media res characters, and a super who knows literally all the sorceries is not.

[fectin]

That means so little and so much Fectin.

Don't I know it.

3.5 changed how DR works (typed vs sufficient magic bonus); multiple spells rules; weapon size rules; classes; removed certain skills; and piles of other stuff I can't even begin to recall.

DR and weapon size rules were the big ones I was forgetting.

[Judging__Eagle]

As for "power fantasy" characters, some of the other members of the party can be pretty power fantasy as well.

No, those other characters are strong combat monster in media res characters who don't have access to all sorts of things, like piles of minions, utility abilities, information gathering, and in many cases, ranged attacks.

Yes, it is possible to create a combat brute. That's great, but that doesn't magically change the fact that some combat brutes are legal in media res characters, and a super who knows literally all the sorceries is not.

To be honest, you're not convincing me of anything new. In my original assessment on how to handle how the character got Sorceries I was going to make the libraries only act as a location at which magic could be cast, or learned from.

I allowed it in the second session b/c they felt bad b/c they didn't have the finances, assets, languages or other stuff other people had.

Easy come, easy go.

To be fair, this same character has also invited the rest of the group to study in their library, and also learn all sorceries; so they wouldn't be 'ahead' of the rest of the group in the long run.

Reassessed, it is going to mean that this character is always going to be bidding on Disciplines, and ignoring pretty much anything else that turns up.

Also, what constitutes a 'chapter'? So far every (several hour long) session has the player characters accomplish at least one major task (case, prep, plant for a state museum robbery; travel to the other side of Earth and restore a magical relic).

As well as some side tasks they create as well (successfully perform on stage as a band at a WCL sponsored show; get commissioned steal some 'extras' from a museum; participate in a non-lethal cage match against an average Troll; design and build a prototype low-orbit personal flight suit; deliver a massive shipment of legal goods; get commissions for importing of contraband narcotics); making me classify them as separate chapters.

[Koumei]

There is no "flavour" difference between 3.0 and 3.5, but they might mean "you can use all the 3.5E feats and stuff, but it's the old DR system".

[...You Lost Me]

They also might be crazy.

[Prak]

Could mean 3.0 style animal companions. Given that there is no such thing as 3.0 flavour, however, probably prudent to ask for clarification.

[fectin]

Fiancee's boss is running it. All I know was conveyed by text message, and I've passed basically all of that on. At the end of the day, it's reasonable people, playing an actually well-built game, so I'm not worried. I am, however, deeply confused.

[Hicks]

A non-exhaustive changelog of 3.0-3.5
Sundering was nerfed and boosted: items get crazy more HP but are no longer immune to weapons with a lower magical enhancement bonus.
The Scry skill died in a fire, as did Innuendo
Wilderness Lore and Intuit Direction were folded into survival.
Knowledge skills now tell you about monsters instead of doing nothing
Jump is no longer mechanically limited by a bullshit roleplay number
Magical damage reduction by bonus was replaced by material damage reduction, and the amount of DR handed out increased as well.
You can no longer mine with a pick in 3.5; only slashing and burgeoning weapons can damage objects.
You can no longer charge in 3.5, because fuck you I'm behind a chair.
Haste, Harm, Heal, Hold person and a bunch of other spells were gelded with a nerf bat straight to the nutsack.
Alter self is now the path to secret power.
Symbol and Emotion were split across all spell levels, because fuck Sorcerers
Bonuses from magic arrows no longer stack with bonuses from magic bows, because fuck archers.
The monk still sucks, but lacks fiddly unarmed BAB
Bards can wear light armor with no ASF, but each instrument has a separate skill because fuck bards.
Natural spell is core, because fuck everybody except druids
Tower shields blow, because fuck fighters
The cover system becomes based on grid squares instead of exposure, because fuck you buy miniatures
Metamagic no longer stacks with itself... Casters don't give a fuck
Spell durations are nerfed across the board, because fuckin' love ambushes more than mudkips
Custom Magical items are now ridiculously more expensive; in Soviet Russia, wealth by level fucks You
Weapon size now describes handedness instead of how big the fucking weapons are, because fuck sanity
BALOR HAZ LONGSWORD AS SU ABILITY. Y? FUCK YOU THAT Y!
LOL NO LIMIT WISH, LOL FUCK U!
FUCKING LEVEL ADJUSTMENTS, AMIRITE?

Honestly, everything 3.5 did with the skills was pretty much OK, some of the class ability rewrites (bard armor, natural spell) were pretty cool. EVERYTHING ELSE IS WORSE IN EVERY WAY. IT IS A FRACTAL OF FAILURE: IT IS JUST AS BAD ON ANY SINGLE LEVEL AS IT IS ON EVERY LEVEL.

...SERIOUSLY. Do moar 3.0, it's a better game overall.

[Kaelik]

The fact that you think 3.0 DR is superior seriously undermines your credibility.