Dealing with Item Access & Creation in D&D

[Judging__Eagle]

Seriously, how are people going about doing it?

I somehow get the feeling that 1/2 your level in basic magic items at level seven wasn't the plan.

However it seems that every MC I see nowadays actually.... sticks with that sort of model.

I'm going for a bit of a different model (1 basic/level past 2, uncapped at level 11; +1 minor at level 6 and every 2 levels afterwards, uncapped at level 16; +1 moderate at level 9 and every 3 levels after that; +1 Major at level 14 and every X levels afterwards).

Also, creating items is sort of important. In some campaigns... the PCs are the only high level adventurers (@_@, ), so having some pretty solid rules on creation is more than a tiny bit important.

I'm seriously in 3 supposedly "tome" games where PCs have.... 3 level 1 spell casting items, or basic magic items, at level seven.

My own character's items are things that let them spam spells (specifically Ex. Retreat, CLW, Ex. Runes) in a meaningful manner. The other PCs have.... minor stat boost or enhancement gear on 28-pt buy characters.

So.... while there have been rules on breaking down item access here, and guidelines on item creation in BoG; I'd like to know if anyone could shed some more light on "how" the process could be described to other people at the gaming table.

[Kaelik]

Only you JE, think that an item that casts Expeditious Retreat is a good idea in a game where an explicit item function is enhancement bonus to speed.

I've been working on something off again on again for Comprehensive Tome Errata ever since I finished making all the items.

[RobbyPants]

Making all the items? Are you trying to create a comprehensive list, or something?

[Judging__Eagle]

Only you, Kaelik, would be silly enough to make incorrect assumptions about everything. You know, like you almost always do.

After wanting to just make "fast walking boots", the DM basically said my character couldn't make +1/3 level Enhancement bonus items to speed... but I could "buy" a wand of Ex. Retreat.

Which I did after the rest of the group basically shouted me down, despite the fact that I told them it would be unbalancing for my character to drop over-sized enhancement bonuses on themselves. Honestly it was a result of my being fed up, and not wanting to argue for balance in the face of obliviousness to you know basic math that I got the item (which...I've used once, about 3 levels ago, and haven't used since; of course, I've been trying to get this PC killed so I don't even do things like summon a 24 hour celestial eagle to be flying all the time). The MC for this group also absolutely <3 shit like Glibness on his DMNPC, so that explains a good amount of their favour for spells that break how bullshit bonuses work.

It's seriously the worst of both worlds. Broken items, and the inability to actually make balanced ones.

Which is why I'm trying to figure out some sort of guidelines. I've seen the outlines you've written in your Tome Errata Kaelik, but I was wondering if anyone else has done anything to go beyond that.

Currently things that I've done in game that could be used towards item creation:

-collect "unique" monster body parts to use towards making appropriate items (we're in the paradox of a "low power" setting, so every monster is worth putting into a jar of preservatives for use later; where firmly established NPC factions are basically entire families of vampires, PCs who are spellcasters are "feared" as "witches", and necromancy is "illegal" (despite the fact that the DMNPC is a vampire necromancer)
-max out my character's craft skill
-craft mundane items
-write scrolls (despite the fact that scrolls are actually completely useless for my Thaumaturge with how this group is going to use scrolls; they are treated as a method to replace a spell slot with a spell you haven't on your spell list, or haven't prepared)

[Kaelik]

Only you, Kaelik, would be silly enough to make incorrect assumptions about everything. You know, like you almost always do.

Only you JE, would claim to be playing a Tome game, but not actually read the Tomes enough to know when you are talking about something explicitly in the Tomes.

Here are some supernatural Worn-item qualities:

&#9632;Lesser Qualities

...

&#9632;Speed: Iconically placed on boots and shoes, this enhancement allows the wearer to move faster. She gains a 5 ft. bonus to all her modes of movement for every two hit dice she has.

In conclusion, your DM was right, that a +1/3rd level enhancement bonus to speed item is not okat, because it doesn't make any goddam sense, seeing as your speed is not an integer, it is an integer divisible by 5.

Which is why an explicit "faster" effect exists in the Tome rules, that you could have used, if only you actually knew any of the rules.

[Judging__Eagle]

Like I already said, the DM vetoed that, and told me to get an Ex. Retreat wand instead of the completely balanced item I wanted my character to make for themselves.

The people I game with can't math. Even when I show them the math.

[shadzar]

First I would have to ask which D&D? I am guessing you mean 3rd, for that what I know is people gave access to magic items the same as always before. Place them as treasure.

Magic Marts, or constant time to create things was never a preferred method with the games I knew of.

Players were adventurers, not merchants. The time they stopped adventuring to set up shop to make mass mercantile items other than polishing armor, is the time they retired form adventuring.

[Psychic Robot]

The best way to deal with item access and creation in D&D is to make it so that magic items are rare and wonderful and largely non-applicable to combat. Yes, a +5 sword is a D&D trope, but make the sword do something other than "hit better and harder" so it's not required for characters to function.

[PhoneLobster]

OK so Tome item rules...

Book of Gears basically... isn't.

I learned the hard way that the Tome Armour rules were nice looking but really rather horrid in practice.

The Wish economy is nice, but not especially useful and not especially news to anyone. "Barter and quest for the good stuff" is pretty much old school style "let the GM fix it" right there.

What you need to do is write up some pretty extensive level by level guidelines on what items are available and how many items/how much wealth you expect players to have.

You need to know things like exactly what level werewolf killing silver weapons become usable, available and affordable. And you need to know at which levels players will treasure a silver dagger, casually swing a silver sword, or line the roads to their cosmic megafortress in silver guttering.

You need to write that shit down, and try and stick to it during game play, and better yet, also during writing up some actual item rules to replace the mess that is in core. And it would be helpful if your wealth guidelines created characters appropriately equipped to face level appropriate challenges.

I'm giving it a run for my own vaguely Tome derived house rules right now, since I'm on to my like 4-6th item rules rewrite and still not happy with things, it's some nasty stuff, but someone has to do it.

Wealth by level guidelines are some pretty easily broken things, and since you also probably want to include some fairly complex details like tracking DR bypass availability by level possibly fairly large and complex easily broken things.

But if you don't have a guideline... then bugar it, who is to say that 3-4 crappy magic items at level 7 isn't appropriate. You need that wealth by level chart there or you just plain CAN'T say "they have too little, or they have too much" in regard to player wealth or items, at least not without running them down some level appropriate challenge gauntlet every time they finish a bartering session.

Tying item power to level based unlock requirements like skill ranks, BAB, spell casting and actual level is helpful to somewhat prevent excessive piling of wealth into one super world destroying game breaker item, but it won't tell you the things wealth by level guidelines will.

Tying item use to strict limited slot systems will help prevent (beyond a certain maximum) the excessive use of wealth to max out jack of all trades style too. But it still won't tell you what is or should be in the magic item shop, or a treasure chest, or equipped on any given adventurer. You STILL need a wealth by level chart of some form.

So yeah. In the end. You need some extensive wealth by level guidelines. The first place to look while writing them is PROBABLY going to be things like what levels various DR and other bullshit puzzle type monsters pop up. But fuck it, I'm winging it, it's only my own house rules.

[Judging__Eagle]

Alright that's more than fair Phonelobster. Which means I'll have to do it myself.

Level: Item Access

1: Up to your carrying capacity in Equipment, nothing valued over 100 gp. One to Two heads of cattle, plus vehicle, up to vehicle's max weight; nothing in cargo valued over 50 gp.
Wood, Stone, Steel, Silver equipment*.

2: As above. Nothing over 400 gp in value. Two to Four heads of cattle. One Vehicle. No item of cargo with trade value greater than any item equipped. 1st Level NPC Class Hirelings (1/level).
Craft First Basic Magic Item.

3:As above. One melee, ranged and armour/sheild set may be Masterwork May exchange Masterwork equipment options to instead gain a Masterwork Tool. Heads of Cattle now limited by level x3. Vehicles as found/purchased. Cargo as found/purchased. 2nd Level NPC Hirelings (1/2 per level).
Craft Second Basic Magic Item.

4:As Above. 3rd level NPC Hirelings (1/3 levels)
Mithral Light Armour, Weapons
Craft Third Basic Magic Item

5:As above. 4th level NPC Hirelings (1/4 levels)
Adamantine Weapon* (1)
Craft Fourth Basic Magic Item
Craft First Minor Magic Item

6:As Above. 5th level NPC Hirelings (1/5 levels)
Adamantine Medium Armour/Shield (up to 1 ea.)
Non-Planar Special Armour (up to 1)
Craft Fifth Basic Magic Item
1 Minor Magic Item

7:As above
Adamantine Weapons* (1/2 levels, round up)
Adamantine Heavy Armour/Shield (up to 1 ea.)
Craft Sixth Basic Magic Item
Craft Second Minor Magic Item

8:As Above
Craft Seventh Basic Magic Item
2 Minor Magic Items

9:As Above
Planar Special Armour/Shield (up to 1 ea.)
Planar Material Ranged/Melee Weapon (up to 1 ranged/melee)
Craft Eight Basic Magic Item
Craft Third Minor Magic Item


10:As Above
Craft Ninth Basic Magic Item
3 Minor Magic Items

11:As Above
Any Races of War armour (Up to 1/2 levels)
Batcave of Basic Magic Items
Craft Fourth Minor Magic Item
Craft First Moderate Magic Item

* Note: Whenever Equipment or Weapons are referred to and bought instead as Ammunition, get 50 units of ammunition if Arrows/Bolts/Shuriken, 20 if Thrown weapons are Throwing daggers, Javelin or the like.





Crafting Magic Items

But first, a word on how to actually craft things. Since while TGD has tried several times, we've never settled on any single method. This makes me sad since I honestly enjoy making props, tools, equipment and furniture.

Craft
Okay, so you hire one hundred labourers, and can complete the Great Wall in five thousand years. For 100k labourers that's five years. Or something

Let's get something straight, we like the Skills system of D&D. It provides a manner for Creatures to have their capabilities not tied directly to the 2e method of "roll under your stat to pull off a mortal-level stunt". Which means that heroic creatures can perform heroic acts, like run across an icey plank of wood at full speed (DC 15 (2-6" wide) + 5 (Severly Slippery) = DC 20) or jump over an enemy charging at you (DC = 4*Height (in feet)); and the Mister Cavern isn't going to be a dick about it because their perception of level 5 and 6 doesn't fit with the heroism that level 6+ entails.

Which is all well and good, but Skills also cover other things, like Speaking Languages, Professions and Perform. Skills that can't be arranged in the same manner as the rest of skills. While Speak Language is something that is reasonably well costed (I've always wanted to put in some sort of "learning" mechanic and/or barrier in terms of capability with a language, years of translation work has shown how little people know about the entirety of their own language, due to national variations, dialects, etc.), out of the 3.5E box, Profession and Perform are not. Neither does Craft. Fortunately, Profession and Perform were handled very well in Dungenomicon and "Bards?".

In an attempt to use an already existing set of mechanics, I propose that Craft become more like the way that Perform was changed into with the Frank "Bards Suck", Bard.

Specifically:

So what the heck, we know what's wrong with it, why not remake the Bard into something that has but one ass?

Before that can even be done, Perform needs the following adjustment:

Replace First Paragraph with wrote:

You are trained in several types of artistic expression and know how to put on a show. Possible Perform types include ballad, buffoonery, chant, comedy, dance, drama, drums, epic, flute, harp, juggling, limericks, lute, mandolin, melody, mime, ode, pan pipes, puppetry, recorder, shalm, storytelling, trumpet, and tuba (the DM may authorize other types). You are trained in one form of performance per rank.

Thus, for Craft I propose the following change:

Craft (Int): The ability to solve the problem of "how should this be made?", then applying the solution.

Note: The Ability to craft objects is actually, a transferable skill. An engineer working with steel girders and cement can work with stones/mud-packed forms and bamboo. The limitations of what they can achieve will be limited to the materials they have (and the extent of their ability).

Spending Ranks in Craft: Just as Balance doesn't care if you practise on wooden planks or ropes; nor does Diplomacy bother to denote weather you make Rhetorical or Emotional appeal; so too does Craft not give a shit about whether you're an armoursmith, or a weaponsmith. At best Craftspeople care about the sort of materials they work with. Elukian Clay vs Iron, or Pure Hope vs Distilled Pain.

When putting ranks into a Creature's Craft skill, they may purchase one type of material per rank in the Craft skill that they have (a 1st level Expert Blacksmith with 4 ranks in Craft probably has: Iron, Leather, Wood, and Fabric; at higher levels, stone, silver, adamantine, baatorian greensteel and gems).

Materials: Minimum Ranks in Craft: Example
Mundane: 0: Wood, Copper, Iron, Cloth, Leather, Stone, Gems, Gold, Mundane Body Parts
Heroic: 9: Adamantine, Mithral, Greensteel, Ankheg Chitin, Angelskin, Fiendskin, Monsterous Body Parts
Planar: 12: Raw Chaos, Pure Hope, Perfect Widget, Distilled Pain; Souls, etc., Divine Body Parts

Creating Items with Craft: The base Difficulty of Crafting is based on the following formula:

Equipment: 10 + one of:
[*] [Shield/Armour: AC of item]
[*] [Simple Weapon: 1/2 of Damage Dice size]
[*] [Other Weapon: Size of Damage Dice]
[*] [New Weapon: Size of Damage Dice +10] [Ignore the +10 if the crafts-person has an example object]

More valuable armours are only made by more profienct craftspeople. "Exotic" weapons are harder to manufacture compared to other weapons (no one makes a spiked chain or chu-ko-nu (aka repeating crossbow), but weighted chains are much more likely, also actually realistic). A smith can make maces and longspears by the bundle, and "harder" swinging weapons are also "harder" to make (with the Greatsword and Greataxe both needing a base check of 22 to make; while a Greatclub is a 20).

Bows: Hardness of Material + [Bow Strength Rating]; unless Bow Strength Rating > Hardness. Then use Bow Strength Rating.

Thus a Composite Longbow made of Bone/Wood with an str rating of 18 is a DC 18 Craft check.

Making Objects: 10 + Hardness of Material; -5 if very simple (cloth tabard, wood spoon); 0 if normal (shirt, metal nail); +5 if worked (gambeson, iron pot); +10 if complicated (embroidered dress clothes, key-lock).

Alchemy: Anyone can be an alchemist, not just spellcasters. In fact, many alchemists are not spell casters. Using their alchemy in place of the energy manipulation that spellcasters use.

Making Alchemy: Alchemy comes in two main types, consumable, and usable.

Consumables
Consumables come in Potions (24hr, 1 hr) and Vials (Instantaneous); and are the equivalent of a spell that affects the Creature they are applied to. The Craft DC of a Potion or Vial is equal to 10 + Minimum Caster Level + Spell Level + Minimum Attribute Modifier to cast the spell.

For Example: A vial of Cure Light Wounds requires a DC 10 + 1 + 1 + 1 or 13 to create. This explains why healing potions are so prevalent, despite often looking like a mug's game to create and sell. Potions which simulate a Spells a duration of more than 1 Round/Level instead change to 24 hours, and uses 1/8 Item Attunement Slots that a character may have. Potions with a duration of 1 Round/level instead change to lasting 1 hour, with the same limitations as 24 hr potions (use an attunement slot).

Potions last their full duration unless Purged (a 10-minute action which leaves the creature Helpless during the time where they try to expel the potion), or are dispelled/suppressed by means that would affect an equipped item.

An Alchemist may carry one potion per rank in Craft that they have at the start of an adventure.

Vials are instantaneous effects in physical form. An Alchemist can carry their Craft Ranks + CR + Intelligence Modifer in Vials per adventure.

Usables
Usables come in [amount] main forms: Applied, Thrown, Oxidized

The DC of making a Usable Alchemy is equal to the 10+ Caster Level needed to make the object (if it is a Wonderous Item) or 10 + Caster level + Spell level to make a usable Alchemy that has a non-standard spell (such as Disintegrate Water, a la Bottle Woman); 10 + 5 (Thrown Alchemy: Thunderstone, Alchemist Fire, Acid, Tanglefoot Bag etc.) or +10 if Oxidized (Sunrod, Tindertwig).

Making Alchemy: If a creature can successfully make the craft DC to make an alchemical item, they may brew up to their Craft ranks in Vials per hour; or 1/2 their Craft ranks in Potions per hour.

Masterwork: Takes 2x as many materials as a normal item (using only ideal resources), and requires a DC 20 craft check after the item is finished to see if it is of superior quality or a normal (but well made) object.

Magic

Basic Magic Items

A character may make one object into a Basic Magic Item upon leveling up. This is commonly done with a character's weapon, armour, or parts of their clothing or equipment. This takes a 24 hour process, and involves 100 gp times the CR of the creature squared.


Basic Rules for Wielding Spell Items

1. They count as a light melee weapon that deals at least 1d3 bludgeoning damage, and thus must be wielded, put away, and the like, just like other pieces of equipment
2. Each item takes up an attunement slot if used, just like other magic items, and attunement lasts for 15 minutes

Wands

A wand may have any spell that a character can currently cast. So long as a character has an unspent Spell Slot of that spell level, they may use a wands spell as much as they want. Characters without caster levels or remaining spell slots make a Blind Activation check against the Activation check of the wand (DC 10 + Caster level + Spell Level).

Wands are commonly made of: semi-precious stones, plant matter animal parts and/or soft metal.

Aside on Using Magic Devices:

Anyone should be able to blindly activate a magic item. Doing so allows a character to use either their CR + Charisma Modifier against a DC of 10 + Caster level + Spell Level. An item that has been successfully activated in the past has its DC reduced to 5 + Caster Level + Spell Level.

Happy birthday to all non-UMD and non-casters. No more X/day items. Rogues still get to caper about madly using wands, as their checks can be many points higher (level + 3 in ranks, cha modifier, skill boosting item).

Rods

A Rod has one, or more spells that it can be used to cast, or else has some other special property. A Rod has a number of spells that it can cast based on the creator's available spells, no more than the creator's Casting Attribute Modifier in different spells, and all must either: 1) Be of the Same School of Magic or 2) All have the same [Subtype] tag. If a character has no spellcasting, then the Rod they create is a light melee weapon with a special property that is usable as a Close Ranged Touch attack as a standard action.

Rods are used like wands, however if a character's Casting Attribute modifier (or Charisma modifer for non-casters) is lower than the number of spells within the Rod, then they may only use up to their Casting Attribute Modifier in different spells from the Rod during that day.

Anyone can use a Rod, but Rods are not able to be manufactured until level 5.

Rods are commonly made of: precious stones, plant matter, animal parts and/or hard metal.

Staffs

A Staff modifies how a spell is cast, applying a Metamagic feat to a cast spell. After every use, a Staff cannot be used until a number of rounds have passed equal to the amount of spell levels that the Staff's Metamagic applied to the spell.

Creatures with a Metamagic feat may use a staff of that metamagic feat every round, instead of having to wait one or more rounds.

Anyone may use a Staff, but Staffs are not able to be manufactured unless the creator also has the required metamagic feat. Staffs tend to cost the square of the amount of spell levels they add, multiplied by 1,000 gp. Thus an Empowering Staff is 1,000 gp, and possible to be owned; while a Quickening Staff is 16,000 gp and only used by Wizards who can already quicken spells.

Staffs are made from a wide range of materials, and commonly have a headpiece that reflects the type of Metamagic that the staff applies to cast spells.

Wonderous Items

Characters can make Magic Items as if they were a spell-caster with their CR as their caster level. Spells may be cast onto the item by an other character in order to finalize the effect. Iconicly Formed Items count as if their required caster level is 4 lower (although the required spells must still be cast).

The time needed to create an item is a 24-hour ritual, after the yet unmagical version of the object has been created and is in the creating creature's possession.

===========


Phew. so that's a first draft. I want wands to scale up forever, but be narrow in spectrum; Rods to be able to cast more than one spell, but potentially force a character to pick and choose from a list of options if they didn't make the Rod they are using; and Staffs to be used to make spellcasting more effective somehow.

[Judging__Eagle]

I still have to do scrolls... which are still very problematic and troubling.

Either they're too powerful for some characters, or entirely useless for others. Depending on how they are adjudicated.

[Kaelik]

Wow, I actually read your items, and they are fucking terrible times infinity.

First of all, the part where you give everyone who casts spells infinite spells for no goddam reason, that's fucking retarded, but that's really your normal level of stupidity, so that wasn't surprising.

What really got me was the part where you thought that someone should be able to get a Staff of Persist, and Staff of Chaining, and then have every single buff Persisted, and have every single offensive spell chained at the cost of one feat. Well damn, that's even beyond your normal level of stupid.

[Judging__Eagle]

Wait, how is a person going to hold more than a staff at a time? Is the word of "a staff" that unclear? Probably needs clearing up then.

A wizard who picks up the feats to cast spells one after an other with a metamagic rider is.... burning up a bunch of feats. Which is honestly more than I tend to spend on metamagic feats on spellcasters (usually... I spend none, unless it's something that is getting in RAW 3.5 shenanigans like Roland Bear of the North or other BS).

I'm talking PBH metamagic stuff, no scaling metamagic feats or anything. If using scaling or multi-use metamagic feats, a staff should only allow one of the sub-uses which is decided upon when created.

If they really want to do some shenanigans where their Melf's Acid Arrows are persistent and thus chemically react with an enemy to death... that's a shtick, they shoot acid arrows with a pretty close to "fire and forget" as one can get.

Of course, getting a staff of metamagic is going to be as hard as any other magic item. Staffs that add a +1 to spell level are possible to find for gold, anything with a +2 or higher is going to be harder, something like a

Having a rider where once a staff is unequipped, then any spells cast and still active revert to their normal form probably makes sense.

Really this is meant to explain why the fuck spell casters carry staffs in stories. Under almost any rules I've read, I have yet to find even a decent reason to not just have something less cumbersome than a staff. In D&D, they're not defensive, not ruled realistically as weapons, and only count as large capacitors for spell energy of a few flavours. None of those things I've ever seen as being how a staff is used or displayed in media. Thus trying to explain why a spellcaster would have a "favoured" staff, or why they would even have one at all.

An other possibility would be to also allow staffs to allow their wielder to 'channel' spells through them, giving spellcasters a 'reach' with touch-cast spells.



The problem of layering up Buffs like you are wearing Mr.T chains and having them all stack up is an other problem that I've tackled with in my games by having spells active on a creature burn up an item attunement slot. It's not clean, but it keeps a cleric from running around with buffs till domesday and up to eight magic items.

I also force players to attune wands if they want to cast spells out of them. Really, the overall goal is to make spellcasters actually look like how people expect spellcasters to look. They carry a staff, a wand or three of their most used spells, and the rest of their slots are spell scrolls or a fancy cloak.

I've also found that players are seriously all right with burning up an item attunement slot with "other" stuff, just so that they can use them in combat time. Some people really want to throw animals at enemies, others want to always be able to play with their Puzzle Cubic Gate.... others like surprising people with folding boats.

On wands eh, honestly, I don't really care. People who use wands tend to simply care about having "arbitrarily large" amounts of use of a spell. Having actual numeric caps means only one of two things:

1. A party buys many wands of that type

or

2. A character blows through their charges every adventure, or tries to

After seeing "uncapped" wands in games, honestly, they're less visible impact on the game scenes than actual class abilities than other non-caster classes have.

Why? I think it's because when you aren't concerned about your wand losing charges, or how many charges you have left; or you aren't buying up second, third, and fourth wands of Lesser Vigour or Cure Light Wounds, the game doesn't get that dumb.

I also want to eliminate bookkeeping, and the notion that wands "have"

Nevermind, Wands take a full round action to use, that's why people don't always use them. This represents the "build up" of charge in the item, before it can cast the required spell. Unlimited full-round action scorching rays is.... much more balanced than what the other MCs in my group are doing (i.e. they're both fans of "unlimited wands"). Not perfect, but it does make a character have to think tactically between using a spell slot and using an item.

As for scrolls.... I want to have more of a Yrris, Thieve's World/Sanctuary, pulpy 1970's heavy metal sort of feel. Which means that Conan the Barbarian reads a scroll, and casts a spell. Which is what D&D should have always been able to do, but Gary and his dumbass friends thought that they should cut off anyone who wasn't a spellcaster from using spellcasting ever. Despite the fact that Yrris creating a swarm of Daylight Wasps when opening a wooden chest he "bought ages ago" is no real different than a spellcaster using some sort of AoE fireblast.

In some ways, looking at Ultima Online's classless system is the way to go. If you can be a Mace Grandmaster who can cast Intox and Combast-Flam in the same character, then the concern about some characters being "cut off" from special powers becomes moot, since almost anyone can get access.

I'm also favouring a "everyone can use spell casting items" model; where spell-casting items are really just high tech gear from a bygone age, and some people have recorded the words/codes/intonations that result in the desired spell effects going off.

Again, inspired by the original D&D fodder like Metal Hurlant and European fantasy comics.

[Kaelik]

Apparently, you decided to counter by playing as stupid as you possibly could, as some kind of defense mechanism.

So I will explicitly spell everything out:

1) You don't hold two staffs at the same time. You use a Persist staff when you are casting all your buffs, because then they are all 24 hour duration, and you don't waste any feats on it either, because the staff works again in four rounds. So literally every single person who casts buff spells is now better than an Incantatrix or DMM Cleric. This is retarded.

2) Then, you take the meta feat Chain spell, and then you use the meta feat chain spell with a Staff to chain all your spells ever cast with no level adjustment. You don't hold this staff at the same time as you hold the Persist staff, because that one applies only when you aren't in combat, and this one applies only when you are.

And no, you don't get to say "But they spent a feat!" Yes, they spent one feat to get every single spell ever chained all the time, that's fucking retarded, Chain is good with a multiple feat investment, and a spell slot increase, it's absurdly great otherwise.

3) You get infinite spells from Rods too you dumbass. Which is why you just get some rods that hold all your buff spells, split into multiple rods if you need to, then you use those for infinite buff spells, and then, tuck them into the Bag of holding with your staff of all spells persisted, and you are like an Incantatrix that never spends spell slots on his buffs, and has more buffs than an Incantatrix. Then you go out and start killing Balors at level 9. And if you get Dispelled or something, you just finish the fight, break out your staff of all spells persisted and your rods of buff spells, and suit back up, and go back to chain casting you highest level spells.

[Archmage]

I got down to wands and just kind of stared at my screen.

You really think an infinite number of spells of your highest spell level is balanced ever? Infinite scorching rays as full-round actions is terrible, sure, but I'd take infinite hold person, infinite fly (which is supposed to be a major item effect), infinite suggestion, infinite stinking cloud, or even infinite summon monster (any level) in a heartbeat. I will spend every other full-round action casting summon monster from a wand and conjure a gradually-enlarging army of creatures to wreck your shit before I ever enter your dungeon/fortress/home. They only stick around for 1 round/level, but you're summoning one every round (or every other round if you want to summon/move/summon), so who cares?

Also, that bones the shit out of the sorcerer, who can only know so many spells, whereas the wizard can know infinity plus one if he gets his hands on the materials to scribe them into books. Either way, he has a bigger list of known spells than the sorcerer. So sorcerers no longer benefit from wands as a way to cast utility spells they wouldn't want to actually waste a "known spell" to learn.

[Judging__Eagle]

1) Ok, I see what you mean there. That's a problem with how buffs work, not how items work.

If every active spell on a creature chews up 1 of 8 attunement slots, then I really don't care if your magical buffs come from an item or spell slot.

Unless there's a better way to deal with the issue of "stack 8+ buffs" being layered on top of "wear/weild 1-8 pieces of gear".

The staff also needs to be held and attuned if it's providing the benefits. Really, any item or spell that is affecting a creature should take up an attunement slot. Players and MCs need to decide if they will have 8 slots filled with gear or spell bonuses.

If you put the staff away, then the spells count down from when you first cast the spell, probably poofing instantly.

2) I'm not sure how to resolve that. It's not much different than always empowering a spell (+1/2 damage on Chain spell, right? or is it a full spell repeat) and about the same as having a staff of quicken spell for SoDs.

Probably capping the benefit of staffs to only affect spells whose adjusted spell level would be no higher than your current highest level unused spell-slot? So, at level 3, you can chain colourspray, sleep or magic missile; scorching ray and web at level 5; fireball and deep slumber at level 7.

Which is still pretty potent, but costs a feat, no free hands to use scrolls, weapons or items while casting with the staff. Still very powerful though.

3) Rods cast spells, but what allows a creature to metamagic pre-programmed spells?

I'm of the opinion that while rods may be more durable, and have more spells to choose from, they're probably never going to be less than a Heroic [6-10] Magic Item. If a creature has multiple Rods of their highest level spells, then you can be pretty sure that they're never going to sell them for mundane currency, as they'd be that creature's Mastercrafted* item of the level.

*I'd use the term Masterwork as is used in BoG for the "at level" item a character can make, but that gets confusing with mundane masterwork items; so I'm cribbing the GW 40k term for almost unique equipment that no one can make anymore.

Dropping down or shifting power levels is something I'm fine with, so long as it helps establish and maintain themes that fit with the stories trying to be emulated.

Really, I don't like the idea of a wizard putting away and un-attuning a wand that they cast spells on themself with. I much rather like the idea that a Character uses their Bull's Strength wand on themself, and say some sort of cap (anywhere from Cha modifier to CR) of other creatures; and then can't put the wand away, or slot in a different item; if not the buffs instantly wear off.

A lot of this is me trying to look at the problem of "tons of buffs active" getting to the point where 1) attacking creatures are going to favour being scry & die or other flavours of ambush monster (with a hard cap on total spell/item benefits on a creature, this keeps things to a list of 8 beneficial effects/items) 2) attacked/ambushed creatures are completely boned (now they can simply have "buffs up", making tackling them a matter larger than simply "catch them in the latrine") as well as 3) the accounting for spells affecting a creature taking up more line space than their equipped items.


Anyway, Scrolls are something that I haven't touched since before our group knew about the Tomes material. I've played a caster or two in the interim, but haven't really figured out how I want to deal with them in a satisfactory manner.

I like the idea of flat, flexible, sheets of data being able to be manipulated to achieve a spell effect (and with roll-up digital screens available now, one could make the argument that it's not a magic scroll you're holding, but an ancient programmed piece of tech used to modify the physical world, the formula changes slightly every time its read, and thus re-use of a scroll is not something one can handwave). The problems of scrolls are:

-Amount of uses per item/hour/day/adventure
-Accumulation of scrolls beyond reasonable levels (and what are reasonable levels)
-Who can use them
-How the use of a scroll is explained (you recite a formula? say the last words and then the writing floats into the air, enacting the spell effect on the desired target?)
-Ease and Access of use of scrolls (personally, having say decipher script be the only way a creature can use scrolls is a filthy thing to do, but it does make a rather defunct skill handy for any creature; while not stacking it up with the awesomeness of UMD; maybe a DC 10 + Spell level mental attribute check to decipher what the scroll says right now in order to successfully cast from a scroll)

I'd like to make scrolls be easier to get your hands on, take up an item slot to use/benefit from, require a check that is failable with every use, and allow more PCs within a group to use scrolls. Since the story where a character is given a scroll for a mission totally happens more often than when a character is given a wand to complete a mission. Especially if the character is not a spellcaster, and is the protagonist on a solo mission. "Warparties" are simply a bunch of normally soloist characters being collected to complete some more difficult task than a single creature alone could. Which means everyone needs to be able to use magic spells at level 1 and regardless of species, class or skills.

Converting all spell-casting items into things that require some sort of check that can be failed, thus wasting a round in order to attempt to get a power your character can't do right now is not bad. As is giving all spell casting items a cooldown between uses (say... 1 round per spell level?). Probably implementing both on Wands, Rods and Scrolls, as well as other things, which I'm unsure about just yet.

[Kaelik]

1) There are some problems with the way buffs work. But a) If you make your fucking item rules without mentioning your fucking buff houserules, wtf are we supposed to do, read your goddam mind? b) Your buff houserules are fucking terrible, and you deserve to die for having ever thought that was okay. Buffs are almost universally worse than items. There is no reason to use buffs instead of items. You are retarded.
c) Making people choose between buffs and items fucks over every character, for literally no reason. That's fucking dumb for them to work on the same system.

d) while we are on the topic of your shitty houserules. You didn't explain the attunement rules of any of your goddam infinite spells items. In Comprehensive Tome Errata, I explicitly and meticulously spelled out attunement rules for every single type of item. This is because unlike you, I am not retarded. You have a bunch of items, and you don't say anything about how they are attuned, so literally no one could ever know.

2) No retard. Chain spell does 1/2 damage on spells that do damage, and not all spells do damage. If a spell doesn't do damage, it decreases the save DC for extra targets. But if it doesn't have a save, then it just is like casting the spell CL times. So yes, chaining buffs is fucking amazing, and everyone would do it if they weren't using your shitty system to just Persist every single spell on every single party member without ever using a single slot.

But in combat, they are chaining Fleshshiver, which no save stuns for one round, and then has a fort save for nauseate and CLd6 damage next round.

So on the first round, every single person is stunned, and on the second round, every single person is stunned again, and, in case one of them is immune to stunning, that person has to make a save against Nauseate at maximum DC (because Fleshshiver does damage, so the DC is not decreased) and this is how every fight not against Undead/Plants/Constructs go.

And against Undead or Constructs, I start with a chained Glass Strike, and they all have to make a Fort save or die at maximum DC (because Glass strike does damage, so the save is not decreased). And I'm sure there is some spell I can break out for plants. And I'll find something that no save Dazes somewhere, and use that on all the casters, because Daze immunity is basically non existent.

And I literally just made that up right now, with actual diving, who knows what I can come up with.

"Probably capping the benefit of staffs to only affect spells whose adjusted spell level would be no higher than your current highest level unused spell-slot?"

See, limitations like that.... Are things you should have fucking come up with before you posted a bunch of goddam rules. But yes, that limitation is totally fine, since I already gave them the ability to do that with every metamagic feat they ever have without using an item, because that's how metamagic should work.

3) How about fucking staves! I mean, are you retarded? Why do I even ask that in th form of a question anymore? You created an item that specifically turns any spell into a Persisted spell, and then wondered how someone could turn a spell into a Persisted spell.


Oh yeah, and your item acquisition rules, before you fucking destroyed the universe by giving out infinite spells and all persisted buffs, basic items are stupid, no one should ever have a basic item at all. An item that only grants a numeric bonus is fucking terrible, and against the concept of what we look for in an item.

Also, by level 11, everyone has a batcave of minor items. Get over yourself.

[Red_Rob]

My group are just hitting level 7 and they are all pretty much hitting their limit of minor items, with I think 2 medium items in a 5 person party. Its getting to the stage that they are no longer checking what minor items do and just checking the boss types for a Medium. This seems a pretty fair progression, with levels 1-7 being about accumulating basic items, levels 7-14 being when you fill up on mediums, and then Majors appearing from level 12-13.

We don't use "basic" items, every item has some kind of power.

[Judging__Eagle]

Hmmmm.

I think I'm going to have to completely re-teach my group how players should be getting items. Which is honestly a good thing. I've been getting rather annoyed and really, ambivalent about seeing 4 basic items on my level 7 character's sheet. The game I'm running is a lot closer to the payload I outlined in an earlier post, in the level 10 game I'm running I told them they get 1 major (or artifact of my choosing, based on what their character is and does); 3 moderates, and a batcave of minors/basics. Shifting the batcave to only be minor items with basic powers tacked on is no big deal for me, but will be for the group's perception on treasure acquisition and access.

Making it so that the "basic" magic of an item is what is added to (or replaces the powers of) items that could be taken from the DMG/MIC (ehhh... I know MIC has issues, but it is a laundry list of items) magic items is something that hasn't really been clear in reading and re-reading BoG over the last few years.

Also, the assumption that the brainstorming of potential fixes for issues I'm having with item and power distribution are rules that I'm currently using is false. This is IMHO, not IMOI, I don't know what the fixes for "buffs stacked to the sky" or "players getting the shaft on items" exactly are. That's why I'm posting ideas for how to fix issues I'm noticing, here.

To the bulk of the campaigns my group is running (aka, the four other campaigns I'm not MC of) the very notion that a PC has their level-1 in Basic magic items is a massive powerup. Shifting that to Minor magic items is going to wreck the faces of the MCs of the other groups, and honestly I know that the PCs need more and better items.

In the one game I'm running... the shift will be a minor power boost. I mean, shit, the players think I'm the monty haul MC (while really, it's not even close to what could be defined as monty haul, right now I've realized that I'm under-gearing them, which is really bad). The other three DMs are going to have to accept that they've been royally screwing the group in their games. Hopefully we'll be correcting that.

Shifting PCs to batcaves of Minor items in my game is not even something I need to be convinced of, I just want to be clear on how I should be handing out gear. I really like watching powerful and effective PCs in play. In general I'll try to give players suggestions that will widen their characters options or synergize with their existing powers/build. Since very few of the people I play with are very good at optimizing and I hate to watch a PC suck or flail, and suggesting that between level 6-10 they have to pick up flying of some sort is something that most of them wouldn't even consider.

Which is why I've favoured starting my campaigns at level 6, 10-11, or 16. I pick those points specifically to let the full BaB classes actually see more than 2 scaling feat powers from any of their Feats in action, and because it's fun to watch 10th level godling-adventurers take on entire castles with only the party, and no army backing them up. It really helps establish the power level of their characters for players to realize "hey, that entire castle of soldiers.... isn't really hitting, or even hurting, us. Oh shit, the door is made of stone golems" before they decide to spell past, fly over or burrow through the fortifications.

The clarification on Chain spell is appreciated, I couldn't google the book it shows up in, have heard of it once, years ago on the WoTC boards, and have never read the description for it.


back on topic:

1) Buffs: how could they be handled? I want some sort of rubric for how many buffs a character could expect would work on them. Up to one per CR of the creature receiving the buffs?

I'm not writing houserules, I'm trying to develop houserules. BoG left as many unanswered questions as it resolved issues when it comes to items. The point of this is to try and figure out what is good/bad/ugly, as well as what other people are doing based on their interpretation of BoG.

2) Okay, so Chain spell is really hardcore.

I want staffs to be the metamagic item of my setting, as well as an item that can allow touch ranged spells to be 'poked' at a target that's 5' (or melee reach if larger) away from the caster.

There's literally more ways that this could be done than could be counted, and most of them are not going to be any good; which is why I'm posting here, right now my group has decided to let staffs get used in this manner and honestly I'm not very keen, and TGD is the only place I'm going to find anything remotely reasonable.

Shifting staffs to have some sort of daily charges; like 3/day, the way DMG metamagic rods function instead of "as much as you want" is something I'm fine with, and don't really care about. I just want to see the items used in an iconic manner, and not relegated to "something most spellcasters don't even really bother thinking about, let alone wanting to get" in just about every game I've seen, played in, or run.

3) No I meant specifically what I said. How is a staff going to affect a pre-programmed spell.

Can people now use metamagic feats on wands and rods? Can people apply metamagic rods to spells cast out of wands?

I've never thought that was normal for use of spell-storing items, and only consider a character's actual spell slots to be the only spells that metamagic feats or gear should ever apply to.

As always, thanks for the input. While you get overly worked up about my nebulous brainstorming and idea forming Kaelik, you point out the stuff that matters or is going to spiral out of control. I'd appreciate your ideas and suggestions for fixes as well.

[Kaelik]

Making it so that the "basic" magic of an item is what is added to (or replaces the powers of) items that could be taken from the DMG/MIC (ehhh... I know MIC has issues, but it is a laundry list of items) magic items is something that hasn't really been clear in reading and re-reading BoG over the last few years.

Perhaps instead of writing rules, you should go to some kind of class where you learn to read. That might work out well. Then you wouldn't say something so stupid.

You know, come to think of it, I'm not sure if the Races of War classes are supposed to be in addition to the class features of the PHB classes, or instead of.

Oh wait, yes I do, because I know how to read.

Also, the assumption that the brainstorming of potential fixes for issues I'm having with item and power distribution are rules that I'm currently using is false.

Your rules suck. I'm telling you they suck. I don't care whether you use them or not. They suck.

1) Buffs: how could they be handled? I want some sort of rubric for how many buffs a character could expect would work on them. Up to one per CR of the creature receiving the buffs?

I would try to remove the bullshit where people can make buffs last all day. Given infinite time, skill, and willingness for change, I would rewrite the duration system. I would, at exactly zero points, ever, limit the number of buffs people can have active.

That doesn't fix anything. Making people have Wrathstrike, Recitation, Bite of the Weretiger, Iron Guard, and something else every fight is not fixed by making it so they never cast Draconic Senses, or Hoard Gullet, because it's not worth it.

It's fixed by changing the circumstances in which they can have all those short duration buffs active at the same time.

If I were to pick literally the three changes that made the stacking lots of short term buffs situation worse, it would be a) giving infinite spells b) allowing people to Persist easier (at all) c) limit buffs to X amount.

So in other words, you have suggested the three things that make buff stacking worse.

I just want to see the items used in an iconic manner, and not relegated to "something most spellcasters don't even really bother thinking about, let alone wanting to get" in just about every game I've seen, played in, or run.

Hey, you want staves to be used iconically? You know what would work great for that? Iconic forms.

And then just make the Staff the Iconic form for a class of items that Wizards want a lot. Like say, items that cast spells, and do so using their goddam casting stat and CL instead of that of the minimum.

Dude, that sounds like something I did, almost like I put some thought into this or something... Naw, that's crazy talk.

3) No I meant specifically what I said. How is a staff going to affect a pre-programmed spell.

Because the way you wrote the staves, they work on spells from Rods, since Rods specifically say "A Rod has one, or more spells that it can be used to cast" Which means that you are using the Rod to cast a spell, and since you are casting the spell, the staff can modify it.

Can people now use metamagic feats on wands and rods? Can people apply metamagic rods to spells cast out of wands?

Only when people write like shit. Like you always do.

[Judging__Eagle]

For spell timing, what about four set lengths that never change?

Round/Level becomes 1 Minute

Min/Level becomes 10 minutes

10 Min/Level becomes 1 hour

Hour/Level becomes 6 hours

Then remove any duration affecting metamagic abilities? Or remove Persist, since we're all sure it's not necessary; and maintain Extend, since having a character decide what half of the day they get a power, or not.

Which could allow for easier inclusion of certain types of power schedules, like powers only used during day, or night.

I think an other problem that I have with staffs being spell holding items is that really, none of the players in my group want staffs on their spellcasters, and that they don't recognize them as spell batteries. Even the ones that actually know the rules of the game well enough to know they're sandbagging (combat wise at least) as a druid when they have an eagle or a badger as an animal companion at level 5. Personally, I've never really seen staffs as being all that appealing.

For some reason, they all seem to like the idea of staffs as metamagic items. The current rules being used are frankly ridiculous, and I think I'm going to suggest using the actual DMG items. Metamagic staffs are un-iconic metamagic rod.

[Kaelik]

If I were going to do something like that, hour per level would just become 24 hours. Because that's what they should have been anyway.

[Judging__Eagle]

That makes sense.

In any case, using flat durations is better than having all sorts of shifting time durations? How do the other durations look? Good, needs changes?

This actually would make a lot more things balanced both at the lower end of the spectrum, as well as at the higher end. A 1st level spellcaster's Summon Monster lasts more than 1 round, their Mage Armour lasts all day; while a higher level character's buffs are auto-capped and can't spiral into "longer than the next whole day, with sleeping time included" territory.

[tussock]

I use fixed durations, makes life easier.

Minute (AKA this combat, cast in combat or perhaps for an immediate ambush).
Turn (AKA any long action and the next fight, a running series if you're quick).
Hours (AKA until the connected sequence of events is finished, until you travel).
'till Dawn (AKA forever, but locks up the spell slot to do so).
Curse (Also forever, but you get the slot back).

From the standard durations, but anything too strong or weak can be shifted to compensate somewhat. Extend bumps the spell one rank per +2 spell levels to a maximum of all day. Curses (Permanency, Curse, whatever) cost like items, and refresh themselves after a dispel.

Oh, and I have Dispel Magic work. DC = casterlevel, so 100% vs equal level. Also, Teleport dispels all magic, as does the rising of the Sun (even when you're underground).