Two Handed Weapons in Tome

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:25 am

So... I like scythes, believing them to be iconic for Clerics of Nerull who abuse animate dead, and therefore seek advice for occasionally using a scythe in melee. Other than picking up Combat School, Whirlwind and Insightful Strike, using a buckler, and casting the standard buffs of vertical power, is there any feat or ability out there that could add to my melee potential of using a two handed weapon as much as exchanging the scythe for a pair of scikles and the Two Weapon Fighting feat?

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:19 am

There have been a number of Two-Handed-focused Tome feats released by other forummembers. You should prolly czech the homebrew thread.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:18 am

Isn't Two-Weapon Fighting basically a wash unless you have a pile of bonus damage coming from somewhere?

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:23 am

For a cleric of Nerull, the scythe is a priori better. You don't have the feats to waste on bullshit like TWF, and you'll not want to spend two of your eight item slots on weapons.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:53 am

Koumei wrote a Two-handed Defense feat in the thread titled Tome of Naked Oiled Men. Seriously. Search those terms.

It's not a bad starting place.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:29 am

A lot of the homebrew stuff that people have made for two handed weapons are frankly over powered. Two Weapon Fighting requires two magic items and a feat just to use, it should be doing significantly more damage than a single weapon that you can use with inherent proficiencies does.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:33 am

Largely because of Frank's initial rant on how two-handedfighting is the default thing for everyone, and it's what casters do, so it doesn't need anything.

And how "doing lots of damage" is really the path of two weapon fighting (with sources of extra damage, or just going for "more attacks == more x4 crits").

Red Rob was arguing in favour of smashing people up with greatswords, and Frank told them they need to stop being like Collins with his Dwarf Barbarian fetish, and if they want to focus on oiled naked men, they should first sit down and decide what they want oiled naked men to be doing, and see if it already overlaps with something else.

Or something to that effect.

This is the thread in question, sadly I can't find the original thread with Red Rob and Frank arguing.

Also, if I could be arsed doing it, I would probably rewrite the feat to not mandate being naked and oiled up unarmoured, but to give smaller benefits out.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:41 am

Largely because of Frank's initial rant on how two-weapon fighting is the default thing for everyone, and it's what casters do, so it doesn't need anything.

What? I can only assume this is referring to in Tome, because I can't think of any other way that two weapon fighting would be the default for anyone ever.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:00 am

I think he meant two handed weapons.

We need more clear terminology 'two ___ weapon" and 'two weapon ___' gets mixed up too often.
Perhaps call it Greatweapons. That's pretty easy to grasp.

People Expect greatweapons and 2hw's and sword n' board to be relatively balanced, because its a flavor thing.
But in execution, with magic items and feats and all that, 3.X doesn't hold them on equal ground.

You'll have to fundamentally change the system to make it operate as Expected, instead of in its current 'balance' of execution.

on the feats level:
if you need to spend a feat, then it has to be better, otherwise you start crippled and expend resources to reach Normal.

on the item level:
FFXI approached this problem by adding the item "grip" to greatweapons. While a dual wielder equips two different weapons, a greatweapon user equips his weapon+a grip. Both have two slots to spend on their weapons.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:07 am

Whoops, yeah. Two-handed, not two-weapon.

jadagul · Post by **jadagul** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:50 am

Koumei wrote:Largely because of Frank's initial rant on how two-handedfighting is the default thing for everyone, and it's what casters do, so it doesn't need anything.

And how "doing lots of damage" is really the path of two weapon fighting (with sources of extra damage, or just going for "more attacks == more x4 crits").

Red Rob was arguing in favour of smashing people up with greatswords, and Frank told them they need to stop being like Collins with his Dwarf Barbarian fetish, and if they want to focus on oiled naked men, they should first sit down and decide what they want oiled naked men to be doing, and see if it already overlaps with something else.

Or something to that effect.

This is the thread in question, sadly I can't find the original thread with Red Rob and Frank arguing.

Also, if I could be arsed doing it, I would probably rewrite the feat to not mandate being naked and oiled up unarmoured, but to give smaller benefits out.

Oddly enough, I have a habit of reading old threads just for the hell of it and the original is the last one I read.

Frank's argument, as best I can make it, is that Two-Handed (or Greatweapon) fighting requires the smallest resource investment: zero feats and one magic item. So it should be the least effective--paying a feat should get you something. Sword-and-board requires two magic items, and Two-Weapon Fighting requires a feat and two magic items; paying the extra cost should get you an actual benefit.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:13 am

Oh, I agree with that, yes. But still, paying a feat to be better at something should still be an option - it's just a matter of how much better. So a S&B feat requires an additional (trivial) proficiency and another magic item, so should have a better pay-off, and TWF doesn't actually require another feat (the feat that lets you do it is also the feat that boosts it) but does require two magic weapons (unless you're a monk, or a flask-thrower), so should be better.

But that does leave room for some kind of thing for a 2-handed weapon feat to do. It just depends on what you want it to do.