Same-Game Testing: Rogue v. Factotum

[RobbyPants]

Otherwise blow a 4th level for Vortex of Teeth. Force effects ignore incorporeal right? Probably not going to be prepared every day, but it is within the factotums capabilities.

Vortex of Teeth will hurt them, yes, but it only deals 3d8 damage, so it will likely just do a little over half their health in damage. At this point, they will all scatter and either leave the AoE, get into the center "safe" ring, fly above the AoE, or go under ground.

Without any meaningful way to pin the shadows in place, you will only kill a handful of the shadows with VoT at best.

You're still better off running.

[Danchild]

You can do one of three things: 1) Have a shitty minion for one fight at the cost of 3 spells. Suck.
2) Have him run letters for you with his Greater Teleport. Suck.
3) Abuse stupid Wish wording for infinite Wealth. If Infinite Wealth is allowed at all, then anyone can get it at level 3.

So no, I did not claim that people actually have infinite Wealth, because infinite wealth is stupid, I preempted your claim that Factotums can have infinite Wealth at level 15 and where therefore better than Rogues.

1) The Factotum did not cast Planar Binding today. The factotum cast it last week and negotiated for an extended service.

2) Messenger? Sure why not? Can the rogue do that? I was actually thinking along the lines of guardian, advisor, artisan or scout to name a few roles. I am sure you can think of a few more.

3) Pre-empted me? I wish I had psychic powers like you. Here I was thinking about exploiting the SLA's and utilities of summoned critters but you cut right to the chase.

You also claimed all characters have rings of 3 wishes at level 3. How is this possible? Were you making false statements again?

[Kaelik]

1) The Factotum did not cast Planar Binding today. The factotum cast it last week and negotiated for an extended service.

"Do whatever I want for the next several days" is not a valid service. Yes if you have an entire day where you aren't doing anything you can have a 20% chance of getting a Glabrezu to help you fight for one combat the next couple days. But since you are going to fight a Nalfasheen who has a 50% chance of summoning a Glabrezu, it's not terribly impressive.

2) Messenger? Sure why not? Can the rogue do that? I was actually thinking along the lines of guardian, advisor, artisan or scout to name a few roles. I am sure you can think of a few more.

Yes, the Rogue can do that. He can do it with 100% success rate with 50gp. Or he can spend 750gp to do it 50 times. Now, does he actually want to do it? Usually not. Usually having a Rogue or Factotum pretend to be a Wizard but worse is not worth the parties time, because there are other people in the party.

But yes, I'm sure you were thinking of having the called creature do various things you can't actually get it to do, like "Advise you" even though the spell for that is Divination or Contact Other Plane, and any advisor you maintain with 12 HD is going to be stupider and less knowledgeable than the Factotum.

And yes, you want someone to scout for you, because you think "do whatever I say for the next ten days" is a valid service, but it's not, so you can't use Yesterday's Glabrezu to scout today and tomorrow. You can have him scout one thing ever.

You also claimed all characters have rings of 3 wishes at level 3. How is this possible? Were you making false statements again?

Are you really this stupid? Really? If Wish loops are allowed, then you buy a Candle of Evocation at level 3, Use it to Gate a Solar, then Wish for 3 Rings of 3 Wishes. Each of which you use to Wish for 3 more Rings, until you don't even care.

So yes, if you allow Wish SLAs without Tome handicaps, you can have infinite wealth at level 3, so anyone who claims that being able to planar bind an efferti at level 15 is something their class brings to the table can suck my Solar's cock at level 3.

[Danchild]

Otherwise blow a 4th level for Vortex of Teeth. Force effects ignore incorporeal right? Probably not going to be prepared every day, but it is within the factotums capabilities.

Vortex of Teeth will hurt them, yes, but it only deals 3d8 damage, so it will likely just do a little over half their health in damage. At this point, they will all scatter and either leave the AoE, get into the center "safe" ring, fly above the AoE, or go under ground.

Without any meaningful way to pin the shadows in place, you will only kill a handful of the shadows with VoT at best.

You're still better off running.

VoT is rounds/level. You have a good point about them fleeing or swarming to the centre of the vortex though.

Hogarths death ward suggestion got me thinking. Polymorphing into a young Shadow Dragon provides immunity to negative levels as well as some reasonable extraordinary abilities. Very cheesy, I am also unsure how it would work with the polymorph errata.

[Danchild]

1) The Factotum did not cast Planar Binding today. The factotum cast it last week and negotiated for an extended service.

"Do whatever I want for the next several days" is not a valid service. Yes if you have an entire day where you aren't doing anything you can have a 20% chance of getting a Glabrezu to help you fight for one combat the next couple days. But since you are going to fight a Nalfasheen who has a 50% chance of summoning a Glabrezu, it's not terribly impressive.

2) Messenger? Sure why not? Can the rogue do that? I was actually thinking along the lines of guardian, advisor, artisan or scout to name a few roles. I am sure you can think of a few more.

Yes, the Rogue can do that. He can do it with 100% success rate with 50gp. Or he can spend 750gp to do it 50 times. Now, does he actually want to do it? Usually not. Usually having a Rogue or Factotum pretend to be a Wizard but worse is not worth the parties time, because there are other people in the party.

But yes, I'm sure you were thinking of having the called creature do various things you can't actually get it to do, like "Advise you" even though the spell for that is Divination or Contact Other Plane, and any advisor you maintain with 12 HD is going to be stupider and less knowledgeable than the Factotum.

And yes, you want someone to scout for you, because you think "do whatever I say for the next ten days" is a valid service, but it's not, so you can't use Yesterday's Glabrezu to scout today and tomorrow. You can have him scout one thing ever.

You also claimed all characters have rings of 3 wishes at level 3. How is this possible? Were you making false statements again?

Are you really this stupid? Really? If Wish loops are allowed, then you buy a Candle of Evocation at level 3, Use it to Gate a Solar, then Wish for 3 Rings of 3 Wishes. Each of which you use to Wish for 3 more Rings, until you don't even care.

So yes, if you allow Wish SLAs without Tome handicaps, you can have infinite wealth at level 3, so anyone who claims that being able to planar bind an efferti at level 15 is something their class brings to the table can suck my Solar's cock at level 3.

I guess I am really this stupid.

Be my bodyguard for the next 15 days is a valid service. Obviously you want a critter that can understand the concept if they are going to perform that service well.

Not all information gained from and advisor has to be in the vein of a divination. It could be mundane information beyond the scope of a local sage.

Mundane methods of delivering messages are fine for local communication. They tend to be slow over great distances.

Asking a summoned critter to scout the way to a dungeon/adventure site might be a good idea. If it does not return, then you know there is danger. It can also be the target of a subsequent scrying.

How does a level 3 character gain access to a candle of invocation? Is it via WBL? Sucking the DM's cock? Or are you making more false statements?

[CatharzGodfoot]

How does a level 3 character gain access to a candle of invocation? Is it via WBL? Sucking the DM's cock? Or are you making more false statements?

WBL (although it isn't affordable until level 5 without multiple characters pooling resources). That's why it's one of the few items that straight-up banned from most Tome games.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, I guess 4 level 3 guys could pool together. I'd never thought of that. You could accomplish it with 9 2nd level guys, but most parties don't get that big.

[Danchild]

so entirely contingent on sucking the DM's cock then? And there is no way for a level 3 character to obtain a ring of wishes (being 100k gold and all). I thought for a moment he was going to bring up Pazuzu.

Can we go back to discussing factotum vs. rogue now?

[CatharzGodfoot]

so entirely contingent on sucking the DM's cock then? And there is no way for a level 3 character to obtain a ring of wishes (being 100k gold and all). I thought for a moment he was going to bring up Pazuzu.

Can we go back to discussing factotum vs. rogue now?

No, it's really straightforward in 3.5e.

[Kaelik]

Be my bodyguard for the next 15 days is a valid service. Obviously you want a critter that can understand the concept if they are going to perform that service well.

No, it's not. Be my bodyguard for 15 days is a) beyond the one day per CL b) a stupid thing to say because it's beyond the abilities of the creature, and so therefore he just subverts it by trying to kill you and guard your corpse.

Mundane methods of delivering messages are fine for local communication. They tend to be slow over great distances.

You know what else tends to be slow? Spending five days preping your new set of spells, setting up the diagram, then failing the will save DC, then doing it again the next day, and this time failing the CHa check, and then three days later, after the level one spell already got the message to them, finally getting a demon to agree to teleport.

Also, why do you think that level one spells are mundane methods, when they are by definition magical?

Seriously, if you want to deliver a letter, you are better off casting Teleport, then Teleporting back. It only takes two days instead of 5.

Asking a summoned critter to scout the way to a dungeon/adventure site might be a good idea. If it does not return, then you know there is danger. It can also be the target of a subsequent scrying.

Asking a summoned critter would be a good idea, asking a called creature can be a good idea, see this one time, I was told about some Kobold fortifications, so I just cast Lesser Planar Binding and called a Xorn. I could do this because I was not a Factotum, so I could count on a 90% success rate, and I did it in the field, because that's when you have the knowledge to give them a task.

How does a level 3 character gain access to a candle of invocation? Is it via WBL? Sucking the DM's cock? Or are you making more false statements?

WBL, alternatively, if they can make a DC 2X knowledge planes check, they can just shout Pazuzu. But since that's harder to pin down than the WBL needed to buy a Candle, I just went with that.

[ubernoob]

Danchild, show me a typical 10th level factotum. We'll run it through the SGT. Any cheese you use, we're also going to use on the rogue. Sound fair?

[Orion]

Kaelik, what are you talking about? 15th level is the SGT level wher eplanar bindingcomes in, that's why Danchild picked 15 days. And how is being a bodyguard "beyond a demon's ability"?

[ubernoob]

Kaelik, what are you talking about? 15th level is the SGT level wher eplanar bindingcomes in, that's why Danchild picked 15 days. And how is being a bodyguard "beyond a demon's ability"?

The fact that we're having to get into polymorph and planar binding to prove factotum is a good class is hilarious.

[Hicks]

Danchild, the Factotum still dies.

Even if you blow 14k on a rod, The primary target gets a save, as it is not mindless, and the chained targets save at a lower DC. And, get this, shadows can't damage one another; shadows deal "Strength Damage", and as all Shadows are undead they are immune to strength damage.

Your mindslaved minions cannot stop the rest of the Horde of Shadows dealing xd6 strength damage to your sorry ass. The Factotum just dies, and joins the horde in 1d4 rounds.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik, what are you talking about? 15th level is the SGT level wher eplanar bindingcomes in, that's why Danchild picked 15 days. And how is being a bodyguard "beyond a demon's ability"?

Yeah, I was going back and forth between the level 10 sgt the Factotum keeps failing even with Schroedinger spells, and how the Factotum Planar Binds once a day. Yeah, the Glabrezu can attempt to kill you and camp your corpse for 15 days, because that's the only way it can guard you, since it is beyond the Glabrezu's ability to bodyguard you against a pair of Nalfashenees and a Glabrezu, so it it can do is make sure you don't get in any fights, sense it can't actually keep up in those fights.

[Orion]

Kaelik, you'd convince a lot more people of a lot more things if you made fewer retarded arguments. It is indeed cool that you can tell such great jokes, but it just confuses people when you mix them into an actual argument.

[Psychic Robot]

If the factotum is only viable when it takes Font of Inspiration a half dozen times, then it's not really that viable.

[koz]

If the factotum is only viable when it takes Font of Inspiration a half dozen times, then it's not really that viable.

This, times one million.

[Orion]

Why? "Take an extra action for free" is an awesome feat, why wouldn't you take it over and over?

[Leress]

Why? "Take an extra action for free" is an awesome feat, why wouldn't you take it over and over?

Because when you can't do jack shit else it is just a waste of everyone's time.

[Username17]

Why? "Take an extra action for free" is an awesome feat, why wouldn't you take it over and over?

Because it doesn't do that at almost any of the levels we're talking about. Also, it doesn't really exist in almost any game ever, because it's obscure web content that is here. If you're basing your life on something that sketchy and obscure, you don't have a life.

-Username17

[Danchild]

I am not saying the Factotum is a powerful class.

I am saying it brings more to the table than rogue.

As for WBL nonsense, isn't there some rule that says you cant spend more than 25% of your WBL on a single item?

That would mean there is an inherent restriction on pooling resources. It also means that Kaelik is still a fucking liar. Now a character is looking at being 8th level before they can put that shit past the DM.

[Psychic Robot]

Why? "Take an extra action for free" is an awesome feat, why wouldn't you take it over and over?

Because if your class is only viable with one, specific build, then it's a shitty class. Full stop. I think it says something very profound when a fighter has more viable builds than the factotum.

Now, the factotum is inherently a more interesting class than the fighter, and he can do more wacky things, but when the fighter can be a tripstar, charger, leap attacker, or even a scythe-wielding power attacker and do different things than the factotum's "font of inspiration + spam actions."

That's a bunch of bullshit.

[ubernoob]

I am not saying the Factotum is a powerful class.

I am saying it brings more to the table than rogue.

Burden of proof is on you. We've already shown that rogue can do mad damage pretty fucking easily. You haven't shown us the factotum bringing anything notable to the table at all yet.

As for WBL nonsense, isn't there some rule that says you cant spend more than 25% of your WBL on a single item?

No, there isn't a rule that says you can't spend more than 25% of your wealth on a single item. Now, I *believe* there is a *suggestion* not to let your players spend more than 50% of their wealth on a single item, but that's a suggestion not a rule. The only 'rule' on spending wealth is the gp limits based on the size of the city.

That would mean there is an inherent restriction on pooling resources. It also means that Kaelik is still a fucking liar. Now a character is looking at being 8th level before they can put that shit past the DM.

You say this after bringing up polymorph and planar binding as strengths of factotum? After bringing up Iajutsu focus? After bringing up font of inspiration?

Fuck you and your intellectually dishonest behavior.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I really wanted the Factotum to be awesome, but my in-game testing has shown it just isn't. It's not even good as someone's cohort.