Comprehensive Tome Errata

[CatharzGodfoot]

I guess that kinda threw me off. So you can't whirlwind attack w/a ranged weapon then? Like, at all?

If you have PBS, you can use the BAB +11 ability. Which is actually pretty damn' good.

[For Valor]

Well, that's pretty close.

Still, nothing like Swarm of Arrows?

[schpeelah]

Whirlwind is a level 3 Soldier melee maneuver. The Halfling Stance allows you to use any maneuver, even melee ones, with a thrown weapon, throw any weapon and triples the range increment of light weapons. It's more Rip van Winkle with a dagger than swarm of arrows, but still pretty cool.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Whirlwind is a level 3 Soldier melee maneuver. The Halfling Stance allows you to use any maneuver, even melee ones, with a thrown weapon, throw any weapon and triples the range increment of light weapons. It's more Rip van Winkle with a dagger than swarm of arrows, but still pretty cool.

Again, reach vs. range.

[Kaelik]

I don't think the phrase "can reach" necessarily means the reach of a weapon. It's a generic english, not specific game rules term.

I think a soldier can in fact toss a dagger at everyone in range using that combination.

[Koumei]

Hundreds of daggers, you say?

[For Valor]

So no on the Whirlwind feat; yes on the soldier nonsense.

I'm just gonna say "You can take the [Epic] Swarm of Arrows feat at level 10 or above," and tag it as [Combat] then.

[Red_Rob]

Firstly, while most of these are things that have been mentioned or bandied around in previous threads (Like the Combat School clarification), its nice to have them all in one place and the fixes, like the Fiend Size feats, are good.

Now, regarding the Errata. Metamagic Feats and ML; Should all the old ways of avoiding increasing spell level for Metamagic still apply? I.e. Metamagic from items still applied without adding ML, does DMM cheese still work etc? The Persist change looks like it will bring Clerics down a peg or two. Is that intended?

I remember some discussion about bad things happening when high level Sphere abilities are usable at will without limits, and some suggestion that the highest level ability you have access to should never be more than 3/day? Has that been considered for inclusion?

The magic weapon attuning rule nicely resolves the contradiction between "items take 15 mins to attune" and "bobby knife thrower can throw 8 magic knives one at a time". The "unless thrown" thing is a little clunky, I'd resolve it with "if they leave your hand they become unnatuned at the end of that initiative count" allowing time for thrown weapons to hit but not much else.

The bonus list in BoG had an entry for "+1/3 levels to whatever" which was too vague and could lead to brokenness, but I think the current defined list is a little restrictive. Some characters want bonuses to things that most people don't consider useful, like DR, so I would probably put something in about "You can have an enhancement bonus to other stats if you want, but nothing figured from a stat already on this list".

You mentioned wanting to power up the Jester and Assassin. One house rule we have implemented is that Cantrips are cast as a swift action. This powers up classes with awesome cantrips (like the Jester) without affecting other casters much.

Currently all Samurai use Picks or Scythes. There was a fix discussed in which any incease in threat range to a weapon increased the multiplier by +1 for Kiai, don't know if you want to include that.

Kudos for putting this together, its very useful for the game I'm running.

[Kaelik]

Now, regarding the Errata. Metamagic Feats and ML; Should all the old ways of avoiding increasing spell level for Metamagic still apply? I.e. Metamagic from items still applied without adding ML, does DMM cheese still work etc? The Persist change looks like it will bring Clerics down a peg or two. Is that intended?

Well, book of gears doesn't actually make room currently for rods of metamagic, but I would not be strictly opposed to their use.

DMM... Well, there's a reason Persist was changed, and it does bring them down. I think with the changes, DMM is no more or less powerful than any other use of domains and feats and turn undead attempts (domain spontaneity + Get more good domains is my example balance point).

I'm really not sure, because I don't play Clerics except to prove that DMM persist clerics bring more to the table in damage than any Fighter ever.

I remember some discussion about bad things happening when high level Sphere abilities are usable at will without limits, and some suggestion that the highest level ability you have access to should never be more than 3/day? Has that been considered for inclusion?

No, I have not and never will consider such a stupid whiny bitch change. The only people who care are people who look at the level 19 abilities, Gate, and Time Stop, and bitch about how X at will breaks the game. Fuck them, it's level 19, if you want to break the game, you can break it with Gate 3/day anyway.

Other than that, it's just a bullshit nerf that makes Conduits wait another two levels before they can build their castle. Fuck that.

The only Conduit abilities that exist are: 1) Create infinite minions. 2) Make a level appropriate attack this round.

I'm not going to cripple 2 to make 1 take two more levels to come into play, especially not because it comes into play already at level 3 by anyone who takes the Bone Sphere.

Furthermore, GRRRRR!

The magic weapon attuning rule nicely resolves the contradiction between "items take 15 mins to attune" and "bobby knife thrower can throw 8 magic knives one at a time". The "unless thrown" thing is a little clunky, I'd resolve it with "if they leave your hand they become unnatuned at the end of that initiative count" allowing time for thrown weapons to hit but not much else.

No, because then bobby knife thrower can't throw 4 knives.

The bonus list in BoG had an entry for "+1/3 levels to whatever" which was too vague and could lead to brokenness, but I think the current defined list is a little restrictive. Some characters want bonuses to things that most people don't consider useful, like DR, so I would probably put something in about "You can have an enhancement bonus to other stats if you want, but nothing figured from a stat already on this list".

I'm not sure I want it that open ended. However, I could definitely add DR/SR, something else anyone brings up, to that list.

You mentioned wanting to power up the Jester and Assassin. One house rule we have implemented is that Cantrips are cast as a swift action. This powers up classes with awesome cantrips (like the Jester) without affecting other casters much.

I don't know. I've never really paid much attention to half caster lists, so I don't know what the Assassin and Jester have anyway. My fixes are usually only aimed at stuff I like, or stuff that specifically I get confused about.

[Koumei]

I don't know. I've never really paid much attention to half caster lists, so I don't know what the Assassin and Jester have anyway. My fixes are usually only aimed at stuff I like, or stuff that specifically I get confused about.

Can't speak for the Assassin, but the Jester's Cantrips include Grease, which is a handy spell, if no Colour Spray. The main spell I see Jesters using is Fire Trap, to add some extra Fire damage to the Acid flasks they sneak attack with.

[TarkisFlux]

The assassin pulls spells off the wizard list without random level changes, but only only from the Divination, Illusion, or Necromancy schools. Their cantrips aren't all that awesome.

[Sunwitch]

I don't know. I've never really paid much attention to half caster lists, so I don't know what the Assassin and Jester have anyway. My fixes are usually only aimed at stuff I like, or stuff that specifically I get confused about.

Can't speak for the Assassin, but the Jester's Cantrips include Grease, which is a handy spell, if no Colour Spray. The main spell I see Jesters using is Fire Trap, to add some extra Fire damage to the Acid flasks they sneak attack with.

Don't forget about Glitterdust, which they get as a level 1 spell a level earlier than the wizards do. Mass save-or-blind comes in very handy.

[Red_Rob]

DMM persist clerics bring more to the table in damage than any Fighter ever.

Well, more than any Core Fighter ever. Tome Martial classes can do some pretty kick-ass things, partially because they were balanced around Clerics having full BaB.

That was my only query, if we boost Martial classes because Clerics get Persistent Divine Power, then we take it away, do we leave Clerics in the lurch?

No, because then bobby knife thrower can't throw 4 knives.

You're right...

What about "They instantly become unnattuned if they leave your hand, however any bonus they are providing themselves (enhancement bonus, Flaming etc.) lingers until the end of the initiative count"?

[Kaelik]

Added a section on doors and trap searching.

[VladtheLad]

Neat. This clarified a lot of things.

The save DC for your spells is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Primary Ability Modifier, just like everyone else in the game.

Whats the thinking behind that? It does make things simpler, but it kinda buffs the casters (not that that's a necessary bad thing).

[Kaelik]

Neat. This clarified a lot of things.

The save DC for your spells is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Primary Ability Modifier, just like everyone else in the game.

Whats the thinking behind that? It does make things simpler, but it kinda buffs the casters (not that that's a necessary bad thing).

1) It buffs the casters lower level spells. That's good, because they weren't using them for save or X stuff anyway, they were still using high level slots for that.

2) On odd levels, it reduces the DCs of a Wizards highest level slots by 1. This is not a why thing, it's just a by the way thing.

3) It's much easier bookkeeping.

4) The casters need some buffs to compete with other Tome classes and material, if they aren't going Incantatrix/DMM/ Planar Binding/Charm Monster cheese levels.

5) It makes everything be on the same RNG. A level 7 spell is still better than glitterdust, because it can do something better than blind, but all the spells are still useful. This is opposed to having a 60% chance targeting a weak save with your highest level spell slots, but only a 20% chance targeting a weak save with a level 2 slot. It emphasizes the 15 minute workday problem and encourages players to use stupid bullshit like Ray of stupidity or Shivering touch.

This way, you still prepare glitterdust and stinking cloud instead of ray of stupidity and shivering touch, and so enemies have a level appropriate chance of avoiding your attack, instead of you using touch attack no save shit because it's the only thing that works in those slots.

[For Valor]

Neat. This clarified a lot of things.

The save DC for your spells is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Primary Ability Modifier, just like everyone else in the game.

Whats the thinking behind that? It does make things simpler, but it kinda buffs the casters (not that that's a necessary bad thing).

1) It buffs the casters lower level spells. That's good, because they weren't using them for save or X stuff anyway, they were still using high level slots for that.

2) On odd levels, it reduces the DCs of a Wizards highest level slots by 1. This is not a why thing, it's just a by the way thing.

3) It's much easier bookkeeping.

4) The casters need some buffs to compete with other Tome classes and material, if they aren't going Incantatrix/DMM/ Planar Binding/Charm Monster cheese levels.

5) It makes everything be on the same RNG. A level 7 spell is still better than glitterdust, because it can do something better than blind, but all the spells are still useful. This is opposed to having a 60% chance targeting a weak save with your highest level spell slots, but only a 20% chance targeting a weak save with a level 2 slot. It emphasizes the 15 minute workday problem and encourages players to use stupid bullshit like Ray of stupidity or Shivering touch.

This way, you still prepare glitterdust and stinking cloud instead of ray of stupidity and shivering touch, and so enemies have a level appropriate chance of avoiding your attack, instead of you using touch attack no save shit because it's the only thing that works in those slots.

4) The casters need some buffs to compete with other Tome classes and material, if they aren't going Incantatrix/DMM/ Planar Binding/Charm Monster cheese levels.

4) The casters need some buffs to compete with other Tome classes and material[...]

The casters need some buffs


... and the world comes to an end...

[Kaelik]

I've been saying this for actual years since Races of War came out yes.

It takes like 30 seconds to slap together a Barbarian that wins MVP in every game that doesn't feature absurd cheese that ruins the game.

[VladtheLad]

Makes sense. Thanks for explaining.

[Judging__Eagle]

I'm really not sure, because I don't play Clerics except to prove that DMM persist clerics bring more to the table in damage than any Fighter ever.

Any fighter, ever? I think we seriously got bent out of shape over at least one tweaked out build. Of course, the character was seriously not built for the game it was used. I blame myself for not asking in detail what "Character Optimization Challenge" for a campaign descriptor "actually" meant, since apparently using a RoW fighter wasn't kosher. ...):

I've been saying this for actual years since Races of War came out yes.

It takes like 30 seconds to slap together a Barbarian that wins MVP in every game that doesn't feature absurd cheese that ruins the game.

Yes, this is true.

Of course, RoW was the pendulum swinging the opposite way. So some overshooting was done. Now, it is time enough to bring the pendulum back to a more reasonable place, the middle.

Wizards that use... fireball as a combat tactic are just as upsetting as fighters picking up Weapon Focus.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.

[Kaelik]

I'm really not sure, because I don't play Clerics except to prove that DMM persist clerics bring more to the table in damage than any Fighter ever.

Any fighter, ever? I think we seriously got bent out of shape over at least one tweaked out build. Of course, the character was seriously not built for the game it was used. I blame myself for not asking in detail what "Character Optimization Challenge" for a campaign descriptor "actually" meant, since apparently using a RoW fighter wasn't kosher. ...):

A) I'm talking about 3.5 you retard.

b) Yes, DMM Persist Cleric can bring more damage to the table at that level than your fighter. Which is why I don't play DMM Persist Clerics in actual games.

[Judging__Eagle]

1) Watch the insults your ablist ass flings out. Some people get really bent out of shape, and they have a good point. You're no more clever than if you called me something racist or attack my gender or sexual preference or political or religious preferences (go for it, call me a bi trans hippy-wop and still say you can still feel clean afterward). We both know you're able to do better than use that word (try something that makes sense, or describes the situation/target); and you're only reinforcing pejoratives with use of that word.

2) Which specific long-duration buffs work best for DMM Clerics? I can think of things that are straight out of the PHB (Divine Power for full BaB and "fuck your Str belt"; or any of the Restoration chain of spells for "fast healing nao"), but there are probably some uncommon things as well.

p.s.

Thinking about that character again, I'll concede that the character wasn't a damage dealer. They were actually pretty anemic in the damage dealing capacity, and damage dealing wasn't actually their forte at all. It was one of their smallest abilities really (grappling, damage absorption and some other things were also lacking). Calling them a rogue, bard or monk with very high BaB and lots of RoW combat feats would be more accurate, and probably correct.

[Kaelik]

1) Watch the insults your ablist ass flings out. Some people get really bent out of shape, and they have a good point. You're no more clever than if you called me something racist or attack my gender or sexual preference or political or religious preferences (go for it, call me a bi trans hippy-wop and still say you can still feel clean afterward). We both know you're able to do better than use that word (try something that makes sense, or describes the situation/target); and you're only reinforcing pejoratives with use of that word.

No. Retard is what you call incurably stupid people. You are incurably stupid. I am no more beholden to someone else's offense at me accurately describing you any more than I beholden to the rage at accurately describing Crissa as a bitch.

The reason racial slurs and "transgendered" are not appropriate insults is because they have no other meaning other than "member or race X" which is not something that is insulting.

So yes, retard is a real insult for stupid people like you that is no different than calling Zinegata a bitch.

2) Which specific long-duration buffs work best for DMM Clerics? I can think of things that are straight out of the PHB (Divine Power for full BaB and "fuck your Str belt"; or any of the Restoration chain of spells for "fast healing nao"), but there are probably some uncommon things as well.

Well, depending on what you want, the specific goal I go for is super archery.

So the trick to that is:

1) Some form of polymorphing. PAO works at the high end, but if you can DMM Persist a Polymorph or Draconic Polymorph spell that you get on your list before then (or via spell domain), way to go you. You also have to be an outsider to get Arrow Demon.

2) Heroics to get Rapid Shot and Zen Archery if you have the spell domain. More feats for Extra Turning.

3) Arrow Demon + two Splitting Bows = 4 attacks per every normal attack.

So you want to get as many bonuses to AB and damage as you can, and get as many attacks as you can.

Arrow Demon + Righteous Might + Divine Power + GMW + Righteous Wrath of the Faithful + Righteous Fury + Divine Favor + Knowledge Devotion + Double Heroics = Level 11: Str 43 Wis 24 gives you full attack of +22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+12/+12

+ your knowledge check converted by Knowledge Devotion added onto that.

for 3d8+25 + Knowledge Devotion damage bonus.

After that, you want to spend your other attempts on Lesser Vigor, True Seeing, and defenses. Also, probably some level 1 spell that doubles your range increment or something, but I can't recall it, even though I'm sure such a thing exists.

Thinking about that character again, I'll concede that the character wasn't a damage dealer. They were actually pretty anemic in the damage dealing capacity, and damage dealing wasn't actually their forte at all. It was one of their smallest abilities really (grappling, damage absorption and some other things were also lacking). Calling them a rogue, bard or monk with very high BaB and lots of RoW combat feats would be more accurate, and probably correct.

I never said the character wasn't a damage dealer, because he was, he did over 250 damage on a full attack not counting the Con damage. What I said was that DMM Persist Clerics do even more damage than that. Because your character breaks the game, and likewise, DMM Persist Clerics break the game.

So do uber chargers. Doing too much damage is a way of pushing yourself off the RNG that makes playing the game impossible. Uberchargers can just be negated with entangle or fatigue effects, but DMM Persist Clerics can't be.

And the fact that you would say "He was like a Rogue" as something to indicate he was not a damage dealer blows my mind, because that's the thing rogues do.

[ubernoob]

The spell domain is actually incredibly optimal on a cleric. Greater Anyspell at level six is just right to persist draconic polymorph (you can't apply persist to regular polymorph). Plain old anyspell grants you wraithstrike should you care. When you hit level 13 you get to pop off limited wish at the start of the day when your CL is through the roof to get Hunter's Eye should you ever fight anything that isn't immune to sneak attack.

Granted, you're not a wizard, but wizards have to use incantatrix and runestaffs to pull the same trick. And as a cleric, you can do cheater of mystra cheese.

[Kaelik]

Greater Anyspell at level six is just right to persist draconic polymorph (you can't apply persist to regular polymorph).

Yes, Draconic Polymorph is factored into the Str score on that monster. But no, Polymorph can be persisted. Touch is a fixed range, and always has been.

Plain old anyspell grants you wraithstrike should you care.

Yeah if I weren't talking about an Archer, I would add that to the list.