Reading the Constitution

[Avoraciopoctules]

So knives are the same thing as hats, I must be better armed than I thought. Are guns the same thing as pants?

I see you are legally retarded.

But is he pants-on-head retarded? If so, you might be cruisin' for a double-barreled bruisin, hombre.

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

"Multiculturalism" in the European context is the notion of a culture comming into another culture without even attempting to blend in with the society they are moving into.

No. It isn't.

That's just an ignorant racist lie on your part.

I mean, I'd refute it more thoroughly except that you are so fundamentally wrong that there isn't much more to it than that.

Welcome to the PhoneLobster School of Dialectics. Here's an overview of the first class you'll be taking, PhoneLobster Debating Technique 101 :
1. Pretend to listen to the opposing side's argument
2. Make a funny face (optional)
3. Call opponent a liar / sexist / racist / homophobe / ignorant, depending on context. For added effect, use a combination of those, or maybe all of them, why not ! Be creative, this is the knot of your argument, and the truth doesn't matter. Remember, your opponent is wrong, and the important thing is to make more noise than he does, which makes you Right©®.
4. (?)
5. Profit !

In other news, I can't believe I'm siding with Tzor here.

Actually, while I don't have PhoneLobster's gift for invective, he's totally right about multiculturalism. The idea that multiculturalism means no integration anywhere ever is simply not true, and it is not supported by any European government anywhere. The ghettoisation of poor British Muslims is a *problem*, and it is condemned, not celebrated, in Britain. The fact that many Pakistani and Bangladeshi children in the North don't speak English very well is a *problem*, and the government has invested considerable amounts of money to try and overcome it. These problems, as I've said, do not come from multiculturalism. They come from economic inequality and racism.

Ultimately, multiculturalism is the idea that immigrants can retain elements of their cultural distinctiveness while still participating in British society. That's all. There will always be arguments about how much distinctiveness is permitted, and what level of participation it allows - but the underlying philosophy hasn't really changed.

In fact, for all the rhetoric about melting pots and huddled masses, I'd say that American integration policy isn't very different to British integration policy. We both have well-integrated minorities and badly-integrated minorities. We both have the expectation that immigrants will learn the language and respect the law, *alongside* the acceptance of some of their cultural differences. America has Chinatowns just as Britain does. America has 'hyphen-Americans', we have 'British Asians'.

[tzor]

I refuse to sink to PhoneLobster's level (not that I don't think it's fun, I was raised on the old SNL Point / Counter Point Parody skits, "Jana, you ignorant slut"). Here is a relatively old BBC article from 2005.

Nevertheless, the growth of the community has challenged the French ideal of strict separation of religion and public life. There has been criticism that Muslims face high unemployment and often live in poor suburbs.

Until recently Muslims were considered "guest workers", who would one day leave the country - a view that is changing.

[quote="Italy']Italy is working to formalise relations between the state and the Muslim community. Up to 160,000 Muslims are Italian born. Most Muslims have the right to reside and work in Italy, but are not citizens.[/quote]

The integration of Muslims remains a concern for the Dutch government, particularly after a film-maker critical of Islam was murdered in 2004 by a radical Islamist. Further tensions surround the view held by some that there is a high level of crime among Muslim youths and a problem with unemployment.

The 2001 Census showed one third of the Muslim population was under 16 - the highest proportion for any group. It also highlighted high levels of unemployment, low levels of qualifications and low home ownership.

Here is a more recent analysis

As mentioned earlier, the Muslim communities settled in an environment that was not prepared to assimilate the social phenomenon called immigration, in its dimensions and contents. But the immigrants themselves were not prepared intellectually and spiritually to assimilate those transformations and cope with them for the purpose of a better cooperation with their social and cultural environment.

Some of the reasons behind this situation are as follows :

- The rural origins of the immigrants: most of them moved from an agrarian to an industrial type of relations, in an abrupt way, and without any transit not even through urban life in the country of origin, and without there being any psychological preparation to accept those transformations.

- The existence of illiteracy among the immigrants.

- The infatuation with some of the attractive aspects of Western civilization.

- The material quest, the emphasis on which led to the ignorance of many other concerns : educational, social, religious, etc.

- The adherence to beliefs which does not necessarily correspond to the true basics of Islam.(8)

- The adherence to practices and traditions inherited from rural life in the country of origin, and the first generation lived by these traditions and tried to pass them on to the children. Although these traditions, through time, underwent major changes in the country of origin itself, the immigrants clang to them in their initial version.

- The adoption of mostly invalid patriarchal values in which the father has absolute power and the members of the family respect him. These values, however, often clashed with reality. The illiterate father who lacks the means of communication with the outside world cannot perform the power he desires. He will be obliged to request his children's assistance. Thus, the father is no longer the one who prepares the children to deal with the outside world; on the contrary, it is the children who perform this role.(9) This has become a source of worry for both parents and children and created a chasm between them.

- The absence of communication among the generations resident in the West : while the first generation suffered from the handicaps of language, knowledge and spirituality, which caused a great confusion in educational relationships with the second and third generations, the problem is not limited to the absence of internal communication among those generations. Rather, it exceeded it to the absence of communication with the outside world as well. Each generation has its typical problems with its environment. It is thus that the first generation's preoccupation is to acquire money, the second is characterized by intransigence and violence, while deviance is a common trait among the third generation.

- The absence of a common vision among the Muslim communities and the absence of the necessary coordination to achieve the common goals at the educational, social and religious levels, and the domination of differences which relate to the diversity of national origin (Turks, Indians, Pakistanis, Arabs). Muslims also suffer from the variety of parties which attract them: "The Muslim is required to adhere to his creed, his country of origin, the country of residence, his school of fiqh and his local community. The diversity of these affiliations - civilizational, international, regional, organizational and cultural - contributes to the intensity of attractions on the part of the attracting parties, especially those which have a regional and organizational nature and which always require the Muslim to devote it more allegiance than the others”(10). This situation grew as a result of the emergence of movements which aspire to create disharmony, and to the absence, among Muslim communities, of a conscious and committed leadership which puts the interest of Islam and its reputation above other interests. Some members of the community adopt positions and reveal behavior which distorts the image of Islam, and Islam disclaims responsibility for the deviant behaviour of some of its adherents.

[The Vigilante]

snip

That's what a racist would say.

[tzor]

snip

That's what a racist would say.

[sabs]

snip

That's what a racist would say.

What?

That didn't even make any sense.

[Kaelik]

Um guys...

Vigilantee is the guy arguing that PL is full of shit for calling racist on everything.

Hence, he probably meant it ironically. Hence why it doesn't make sense seriously, and hence why tzor's image macro is not of any value in response to Vigilantee.

I may be wrong, I didn't actually read Tzor's wall of text, so maybe it is racist, but I'm currently leaning towards ironic.

[The Vigilante]

Um guys...

Vigilantee is the guy arguing that PL is full of shit for calling racist on everything.

Hence, he probably meant it ironically. Hence why it doesn't make sense seriously, and hence why tzor's image macro is not of any value in response to Vigilantee.

I may be wrong, I didn't actually read Tzor's wall of text, so maybe it is racist, but I'm currently leaning towards ironic.

I know my post was ironic, and I think tzor's was too.

[Molochio]

You don't like a certain culture or group of people? Such a flaw is easy to work around. Many other races also find the orcs unsavory.

[The Vigilante]

You don't like a certain culture or group of people? Such a flaw is easy to work around. Many other races also find the orcs unsavory.

[Meikle641]

I'm down with the idea of multiculturalism, but there needs to be more assimilation. There are large amounts of asian immigrants who have never bothered to learn either of our official languages, instead preferring to use translators from the government and police. If someone can live here for more than ten years and not speak any of the languages of the country, what the hell?

I find myself shocked when I see signs at TD Canada Trust, Walmart and other Canada/American chains and see Chinese or Korean first, with English in subscript under it all.

I'm sure some would call me 'racist', but learn one of the fucking languages of Canada if you're gonna move here. Even broken English is better than nothing. If I moved to France, Germany, or China I'd do my best to actually learn the damn local language.

I've seen ads for ESL and such, but it seems that there needs to be more pressure for it. In any case, I bet Quebec at least has less issues regarding signage, at least.

/braces self

[CatharzGodfoot]

Language in Canada is a totally different issue than language in the US. You actually have two national languages, and the insane politics that go with them.

But, to be perfectly frank, I think it would be hilarious if the Quebecois had to put Chinese on all their signs.

[Meikle641]

Yeah, but the language used in most of the nation is English. I'd wager most Canadians aren't bilingual, but most do at least know *one* of the languages fluently.

And indeed, that would be a sight. I've no idea of their language law only goes after English, or all non-French languages.

[cthulhu]

I'm sure some would call me 'racist', but learn one of the fucking languages of Canada if you're gonna move here. Even broken English is better than nothing. If I moved to France, Germany, or China I'd do my best to actually learn the damn local language.

Generally, I wouldn't call you racist, I'd call you a retard who is blind to business realities in the 21st century.

Have you ever been to Greece for example? Most of the signs are in English, German, and French as well as well, and it's not because there is a massive influx of French speaking immigrants.

Similarly, in the Gold Coast in Australia, every second shop has Chinese and/or Japanese signage. Again, it's not because half of japan has relocated to the gold coast, it's because these locations get a huge influx of tourists and want to sell them shit. If they cannot understand what you are selling, it's not likely they will buy it. So you put a fucking sign up in <language spoke by majority of your tourists> and have some menus etc in that language.

The reason these signs are often bigger than the English sign is I'm not going to buy shit from tourist traps on the gold coast, and I can order a coffee in a cafe without the menu as prompt for me or the waiter.

[PhoneLobster]

On the other hand the whole "Learn to speak MY language, er... OR ELSE! Derp Derp!" line is pretty damn stupid and racist too when you think about it.

Lets run down a list of reasons why it is dumb as all fuck.

1) It is a strawman set up by Racist demagogues like Tzor. All these foreigners insidiously and defiantly attacking us by, er, not learning English? (WTF do we care really) basically don't exist in significant numbers. The vast majority of migrants DO want to learn enough of the local language to get along. What problems there are are usually due to lack of wealth or available education as already pointed out. Hell it isn't even easy to not learn the local language even if that is your intention, immersion is the most powerful means of learning a language and it is actually really hard to avoid.

2) Seriously what do we care if some small fraction of migrants don't learn English? No really. That one old guy from China working in China town with a bunch of people that all speak Cantonese. Who is he hurting? Is he hurting anyone anymore than that Irish guy with an accent so thick I can't understand him when he speaks English? How about that locally born and bred guy WHO CAN'T READ OR WRITE, should we deport him "back where he came from" too? Seriously. WTF is wrong with people who make this "SPEAK OUR LANGUAGE OR ELSE!" angle.

3) Seriously what IS the "Or Else!" in speak our language or else going to be. No really what is the just and proper enforcement mechanism here. Similarly when and how do people get to learn to speak our language, are we offering to teach? If we fail is it our underpaid teacher's fault or the student's fault? Do they get to try again? How long before we test their language skills "Or Else!"? And when we do exactly what level of "Our Language" must "They" learn "Or Else"? Innumerate Illiterate heavily accented Irish guy level? Jackie Chan level? Sir David Attenborough level? What are we talking here? And what is so important about the difference?

4) Finally and most importantly if you DO enact a "speak our language or else" policy there is a tiny minority of real human cost as that primary effect of the policy. Someone's ancient 96 year old Chinese Grandpa entering the country on a family reunion visa is the sort of guy who pays it. Because now Grandpa Xu needs to learn fucking Engligh or he gets deported or detained (or some other vague "or else") before he even gets to play with his grandkids. Seriously, WHY THE FUCK are we requiring Grandpa Xu to learn English. It's not like it's easy for him, he barely remembers Mandarin, but that is the exact sort of impact of this sort of poorly informed and incompletely thought out racist oppression.

And while we are at it, oh look Tzor is pulling the "Oh you rude person how dare you call us Racist!" angle.

Sorry. You are racist. You are DEFINITIVELY racist. You are espousing the discredited and racist policy of Monoculturalism. You are screaming blue murder about imaginary invasions of filthy Muslims that are going to take over your god fearing white nations and steal or the white women. Again. That is definitively racist. I get to call you racist for talking such racist tripe because if I don't get to call THAT racism then basically NOTHING gets called racism and racists like Tzor get free reign to inflict racism on society without fear of the terrible terrible retribution of like some guy on the internet getting delicate Tzor's tiny panties in a twist for calling him out on being very clearly and blatantly racist.

[tzor]

Many other races also find the orcs unsavory.

Do you find orcs unsavory?
Do you find orcs not to your taste?
THEN STOP KILLING, COOKING AND EATING THEM!
(You are cooking them right? Well, that's your problem right there!)

[tzor]

On the other hand the whole "Learn to speak MY language, er... OR ELSE! Derp Derp!" line is pretty damn stupid and racist too when you think about it.

The what? Whatever recreational drug you are currently taking, please stop taking it for a few moments. No one, and I mean no one has even remoretly said that here. Seriously, what the fuck are you taking?

If I go to Paris, and want to stay for any length of time, I better damn well know French. That's what everyone is speaking in Paris and it's really easier to live life when you know the fuck of what everyone is saying. You don't have to know it perfectly (I know that's a common joke leveled against French people) but just trying is going to score you high marks among the peope there.

The same is true for Rome, you better know enough Italian to get by.

The same is true for Bangalore ... no wait ... strike that ... India has so many regional languages that in the cities English is the "common tongue" most often spoken. But you still better know enough English to get by.

This isn't bigotry, this is the fundamental principle of how to get along in a "foreign" land.

More importantly, if you don't know English, and neither does that other person next door who comes from someplace else, you will never be able to talk because not only don't you know English, you don't know their language and vice versa.

[Neeeek]

If I go to Paris, and want to stay for any length of time, I better damn well know French. That's what everyone is speaking in Paris and it's really easier to live life when you know the fuck of what everyone is saying.

The same is true for Rome, you better know enough Italian to get by.
.

No you don't. You can get by just fine speaking nothing but English, because it's the language most people know. You can seriously get by just fine with no problem in most of Europe with just English, because the various Europeans speak to people from other countries primarily in English. Hell, I know people who are in serious relationships who talk to each other in English because neither knows their SO's primary language.

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

Cower in terror before the coming Eurabia!

[Kaelik]

PL, you are a joke.

Two fo your four points are about the "or else" but no one ever said "Or else" in this whole thread except you.

One guy said "When I see signs with chinese before english, I get annoyed."

Um... so apparently the else is "one guy gets annoyed." I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the human cost of one guy being annoyed at Granpa Xu is totally fine.

[sabs]

Speaking English in France will only get you so far. It'll keep you in the overpriced tourist trap areas. But there are literally MILLIONS of people in France who do not speak a word of English.

First off, there's a big difference between Monoculturism, and what America has. You can be multicultural and still assimilate the driving aspects of a culture. Even France, which is probably the Second* biggest Culture Snob Culture in the world. Isn't a Monoculture Borg. It's when the cultural values of the immigrants start eroding personal freedoms that people start having issues. Are the Chinese Immigrants in Australia asking for Chinese Courts, and different laws based on the writings of Confucious? Are they killing people and claiming Buddhism demanded it of them? Noone is saying that the Arab population in Europe has to become White. They just can't pick and choose what laws apply to them. And that's reasonable.

As for learn english or else. It happens, even in America where Spanish has taken a giant hold, pissing me off to no end, Hispanic immigrants are learning english by the 2nd generation. It's how immigration works.

* Props to the Chinese who are the biggest Cultural Snobs in the world.

PS: Before you call me a racist american. English isn't my first language, I am a 0 generation immigrant to the US. If I got arrested and only knew French and not english? I get my rights read in English and get told to fuck off. So, yes, I'm a little irritated that Spanish speakers get special treatment compared to the rest of us.

[Maj]

You can get by just fine speaking nothing but English, because it's the language most people know.

While the last time I was in Europe (France & Spain) was a while ago, I didn't find this to be true. My sister was in Italy within the past couple of years and also didn't find this true. As sabs said, it works for places that see a lot of English speakers, but there are a lot of places in Europe that don't see enough tourists to require keeping up with your English skills.

[CatharzGodfoot]

It's not racist to not speak a language. It's not racist to be annoyed when someone doesn't speak your language (although it might be silly).

Countries have all sorts of reasons for having national languages. Some are racist. Most probably aren't. The US doesn't have national languages, for various reasons, and that means that learning English is a matter of convenience rather than obligation.

[Doom]

In much of Europe and parts of Asia, you can often get by in English, but only if you stick to the tourist areas. Even then it's no sure thing.

When I was at the McDonald's in Beijing, I had a problem reading their money (turned out, some slips of paper represent partial units of currency, like dimes and pennies here). The cashier had no English, but summoned a boss who knew the 2 words that was enough to clarify my confusion.

I hired a pedicab driver when I needed to get a different building of the American Embassy...I assure you, if I didn't have at least pathetic-level Mandarin, there would not have been communication.

There was also a time in Paris where English just wasn't going to cut it, and I had to stumble through my French (my worst spoken language, thanks to not learning it from a native)...wasn't but 2 blocks away from the Louvre.


So, while English is good, I *strongly* recommend knowing at least a little of the language of any country you plan to travel to.

[Neeeek]

PS: Before you call me a racist american. English isn't my first language, I am a 0 generation immigrant to the US. If I got arrested and only knew French and not english? I get my rights read in English and get told to fuck off. So, yes, I'm a little irritated that Spanish speakers get special treatment compared to the rest of us.

What you are saying is not only not true it shows an amazing lack of knowledge of the American legal system. People have literally gotten away with murder in the US because a translator couldn't be found in time to protect their right to a speedy trial. You get to hear your rights in your language. They can detain you until they find someone to translate, but they have to find someone to translate.