Pathfinder Is Still Bad

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri May 06, 2011 11:05 am

TOZ wrote:It's interesting that their beginners kit sounds almost exactly like the 3.5 starter kit, swapping the plastic minis for cardboard tokens.

Did the 3.5 kit also have a dry-erase map?

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri May 06, 2011 11:06 am

Juton wrote: Interesting tidbit in one of your links, the box set comes with "A complete set of 7 high-impact polyhedral dice". One wonders what the difference is between high-impact and regular dice. Why do they need high-impact dice, do Paizoans have a temper problem?

They get a +1 to-hit as a thrown object.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri May 06, 2011 2:00 pm

There's a mostly-uninteresting article on the Paizo box set on ICv2:
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/20002.html

The one interesting tidbit (to me) is where they say "With the Beginner Box, Paizo is attempting to expand the number of players for Pathfinder, which the company says already has over 100,000 players in active campaign play." (Emphasis mine)

Paging TitaniumDragon: How many millions are there in "over 100,000"?

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Fri May 06, 2011 2:38 pm

hogarth wrote:The one interesting tidbit (to me) is where they say "With the Beginner Box, Paizo is attempting to expand the number of players for Pathfinder, which the company says already has over 100,000 players in active campaign play." (Emphasis mine)

Paging TitaniumDragon: How many millions are there in "over 100,000"?

Bashing TitaniumDragon is always fun but, you just did an apple and orange comparison and I have to call you on it. "players in active campaign play" does not equal "people who have bought the thing." So now you have to take that ratio into consideraiton. If the ratio is greater than 10:1 of the people who bought and are not currently in an "active campaign" ... well there you have it.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri May 06, 2011 2:48 pm

tzor wrote:
hogarth wrote:The one interesting tidbit (to me) is where they say "With the Beginner Box, Paizo is attempting to expand the number of players for Pathfinder, which the company says already has over 100,000 players in active campaign play." (Emphasis mine)

Paging TitaniumDragon: How many millions are there in "over 100,000"?
Bashing TitaniumDragon is always fun but, you just did an apple and orange comparison and I have to call you on it. "players in active campaign play" does not equal "people who have bought the thing."

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think the WotC quote that was being discussed was about "people who bought the thing", either -- it was an estimate of the number of players, wasn't it? (Not necessarily "active" players, however.)

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri May 06, 2011 10:00 pm

"In active campaign play" presumably means "playing a campaign actively."

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri May 06, 2011 10:32 pm

Actually, 100,000 active players might mean "Well, only DMs buy our books right, so every book sold is 5 players, and we sold 20,001 books. So over 100,000 active players should be our press statement."

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Sat May 07, 2011 4:41 am

Kaelik wrote:Actually, 100,000 active players might mean "Well, only DMs buy our books right, so every book sold is 5 players, and we sold 20,001 books. So over 100,000 active players should be our press statement."

Could also be "we had an internet survey and totally got 100,000 people to say they played Pathfinder based on nothing at all for veracity." I mean, you can successfully run Pathfinder games with the Pathfinder SRD.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Wed May 11, 2011 9:04 am

So, Ultimate Magic released. It has a monk-only Vow of Poverty.

For giving up all his wealth, a monk can gain 1 ki point per 2 levels.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Wed May 11, 2011 11:13 am

TOZ wrote:So, Ultimate Magic released. It has a monk-only Vow of Poverty.

For giving up all his wealth, a monk can gain 1 ki point per 2 levels.

I suppose their hate of monks' weeaboo fightan magic is strong.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed May 11, 2011 11:31 am

TOZ wrote:So, Ultimate Magic released. It has a monk-only Vow of Poverty.

For giving up all his wealth, a monk can gain 1 ki point per 2 levels.

Oy vey.

I haven't heard any comments about the finalized Words of Power system, have you?

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Wed May 11, 2011 1:34 pm

TOZ wrote:So, Ultimate Magic released. It has a monk-only Vow of Poverty.

For giving up all his wealth, a monk can gain 1 ki point per 2 levels.

If you think about the type of player that choose Monk and Vow of Poverty at the same time it's the type that loves Pathfinder now. This caters to their market perfectly.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed May 11, 2011 1:58 pm

Hahaha, that is painfully true.

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Wed May 11, 2011 3:42 pm

TOZ wrote:So, Ultimate Magic released. It has a monk-only Vow of Poverty.

For giving up all his wealth, a monk can gain 1 ki point per 2 levels.

Source/cite/proof? I have problems believing it.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed May 11, 2011 3:45 pm

So... about how useful is a 'ki point'?
A spell per day?
A feat?
A skill?
A skill point?

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Wed May 11, 2011 4:08 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:So... about how useful is a 'ki point'?
A spell per day?
A feat?
A skill?
A skill point?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk

Essentially, monk-only lesser versions of action points. You can spend them to get an extra attack, a bonus to AC, bonus to movement speed, and most of the monk abilities have a "ki point" cost instead of a number of individual uses per day.

echo

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed May 11, 2011 5:01 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:So... about how useful is a 'ki point'?
A spell per day?
A feat?
A skill?
A skill point?

As noted, it's one extra attack per day, or half of an extra daily use of Wholeness of Body or Abundant Step, or a third of an extra daily use of Empty Body. You can take Extra Ki as a feat for two more points.

So an extra few points is nice, but not worth giving up almost all of your equipment for.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Wed May 11, 2011 6:34 pm

hogarth wrote:As noted, it's one extra attack per day, or half of an extra daily use of Wholeness of Body or Abundant Step, or a third of an extra daily use of Empty Body. You can take Extra Ki as a feat for two more points.

So an extra few points is nice, but not worth giving up almost all of your equipment for.

Someone on the Paizo boards that this option gives access to a lot of Ki powers, some replicate spells some replicate feats so hopefully it is more than just extra points. If they did it right (which they almost certainly didn't) there'd be things like a 8th level monk getting permanent flight/air walking as long as they have a Ki point left. What we'll get most likely is something like 'spend a standard action + 2 ki points to fly for Monk Level minutes' which is just mediocrity.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed May 11, 2011 6:38 pm

Juton wrote:Someone on the Paizo boards that this option gives access to a lot of Ki powers, some replicate spells some replicate feats so hopefully it is more than just extra points.

I think you're getting two things conflated (monk vows and the qinggong monk archetype).

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Wed May 11, 2011 9:13 pm

DragonChild wrote:Source/cite/proof? I have problems believing it.

Vow of Poverty wrote: The monk taking a vow of poverty must
never own more than six possessions—a simple set of clothing, a pair of sandals or shoes, a bowl, a sack, a blanket, and any one other item. Five of these items must be of plain and simple make, though one can be of some value (often an heirloom of great personal significance to the monk). The monk can never keep more money or wealth on his person than he needs to feed, bathe, and shelter himself for 1 week in modest accommodations. He cannot borrow or carry wealth or items worth more than 50 gp that belong to others. He is allowed to accept and use curative potions (or similar magical items where the item is consumed and is valueless thereafter) from other creatures. A monk with this vow increases his ki pool by 1 ki point for every 2 monk levels (minimum +1).

Monk Vows wrote: A monk can discipline his body to hold more ki by upholding the strict tenets of a vow. By adhering to his vow’s tenets, the monk’s ki pool increases by the amount listed in the vow’s description. Every vow comes with a penalty or limitation to offset this increase in ki. A monk can take a vow at any level, but it does not add to his ki pool until he gains a ki pool as a class feature. A monk who takes a vow never gains the still mind class feature, even if he abandons all his vows.
If a monk knowingly and willingly breaks his vow, his ki pool is reduced to 0 (as if he had spent all of his ki points) and he cannot replenish his pool or use abilities that require ki or a ki pool until he has redeemed himself. Redemption requires a recommitment to his vow accompanied by an atonement spell. After the redemption, the monk’s normal ki pool (without the bonus from the vow) returns. If he upholds the previously broken vow for a full month, his ki pool regains the additional points from taking the vow, and he can decide whether to continue with his vow or forgo his vow without penalty. Once a monk forgoes a vow in this fashion, she can never gain a ki point bonus from that vow.
A monk may have multiple vows. Their effects and increase to his ki pool stack. If a monk violates a vow, he suffers the loss of ki described above; redemption means the monk regains the extra ki from his unbroken vows, but the extra ki from the broken vow does not return until he finishes the month-long commitment (in effect, violating one vow does not have an effect on the other vows once the monk redeems himself).

To my knowledge, it's not up on the PRD or d20srd yet.

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Wed May 11, 2011 9:31 pm

I don't understand.

I don't - what?

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed May 11, 2011 11:24 pm

So, a level 12 monk with the vow can take 6 extra attacks a day, OR get a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 6 rounds, OR move 20ft faster for 6 rounds, OR heal 36 hitpoints a day, OR cast dimensor door 3/day.

That same monk has 5 attacks a round, and is giving up a chance to magically boost them, which will greatly exceed the cost-benefit of having an extra six attacks a day.
That same monk is getting a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 6 rounds, when magic items would grant him far beyond that all day.
That same monk is already moving 70ft a round - even if he can't get magic items that improve his speed, the extra increase is probably useless.
That same monk, with a +4 con item, has 24 more hitpoints without having to take standard actions to get them.
The dimension door is genuinely hard to compare, but I don't think anyone is going to think, "ooh, dimension door 3/day, that was worth NOT having anything magical."

Seriously, we could give this 12th-level vow monk infinite ki points, let him use each ability 1/round, and he'd still be better off not taking the stupid fucking thing, by a huge margin.

Sashi · Post by **Sashi** » Thu May 12, 2011 12:24 am

The Vow of Poverty monk also can't ride a friend's horse.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Thu May 12, 2011 1:32 am

What if he makes friends with the horse directly and cuts out the middle man?

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Thu May 12, 2011 2:02 am

Man that's bad. I mean, the BoED VoP wasn't perfect. Even with what it gave, it didn't really make up for the total lack of items, and it was tied to a rather restrictive code of conduct (being exalted).
But at least they (WotC) did realize that items give you a lot of fucking bonuses, and so a feat to replace them better give you some damn good stuff. This one is just ... what the hell were they thinking? Did they even try comparing it against items?