Winds of Fate needs to be tested in a non-D&D system.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Note that all of this is woefully incomplete. I kitbashed this together this afternoon. If there's any interest in what I have so far I'll open up another thread and fill in the gaps. If I was going to go through with it I would totally overhaul the power arrangement and schedule (and probably even the class system) to support a more teamwork/role-based combat since the triple-class system kludges roles and the matrix is staggered in such a way so that--at least to my limited abilities--you can't have a row of nothing but Red, Blue, Yellow, Green, and Orange-flavored tactical powers, not without causing the word count to inflate like whoa. But right now this is just to give you an idea of what the system would look like.

Master Tide of Battle system assumptions

Even though this is being written up for an Urban Fantasy campaign, since we and this board have the most experience with Dungeons and Dragons comparisons will be continually made to that system (specifically 3rd and 4th Edition).

• This particular WoF mechanic is known as Tide of Battle, the arrangement of powers is known as the Power Matrix. A character's particular Power Matrix may be called different things (Psionic Mapping, Chaos Roulette) depending on their class. See the third spoiler for more information.
• After a player rolls initiative and at the end of every turn thereafter, a person rolls 1d[rows]. If the number of rows is odd, just find a dice that is twice as large as the number of rows and divide a result you get by two (round up).
• There are only 15 levels in the system and 7 discrete 'spell' levels. 9 was way too many and 20 levels is just too many to have for the average campaign. For the minority of tables that could advance to maximum level under the old paradigms they can just award levels more slowly.
• The ToB table does not start out at maximum size. This is so that players new to the game don't have to know what 20-30 different powers do because they're also likely going to have to learn all of the other rules of the system as well. This is also why level 2 is the quietest level in the game in terms of advancement. However, to avoid overly boring returning or experienced players the ToB matrix starts out at a 3x4 table and becomes 5x6 by level 6.
• The game has twelve classes (Diabolist [Warlock], Engineer [Artificer], Luminary [Cleric/Priest], Magus [Swordmage], Monk, Paladin, Paragon [Fighter/Warlord], Psion, Shaman [Druid], Warden [Ranger/Actual Warden], and Wizard). There are three major power sources: Transcendental, Divine, and Arcane. Subsources such as Transcendental: Martial or Arcane: Hermetic Magic may be introduced in the future but only affect the special ability of the Power Matrix. More on this later.
• All characters are mandatorily triple-classed, though the triple-classing is not equal in other systems. Every character has a combination of a Major Class, a Sub Class, and a Minor Class. These provide approximately 50%, 30%, and 20% of a character's class-based abilities respectively. Nothing prevents a player from making all three of these the same class. If a character has all three classes the same class they are called single-classed. If a character has the Sub and Minor Class the same but a different Major Class they are referred to as Dual-Classed.
• The game is divided into three tiers: Agent, Superhero, and Epic tier. Each tier lasts for 5 levels. At levels 1, 6, and 11 the player must select a Kit, a Prestige Class, and an Epic Destiny for each tier, respectively. These are called Augment Classes and supplement class powers. You may only select an Augment Class that belongs to your Major Class or if both your Sub and Minor classes are the same class as what you want to get your Augment Class from. At levels 2 and 4 they get a new power from their Kit; 6, 8, and 10 a new one from their Prestige Class; 12, 14, and 15 a new one from their epic destiny. PCs do not have to put Augment Class powers into their Power Matrix or their Sustain Slots.
• 'Leftover' powers (which you can get from magical items, Augment Classes, powerful races, etc.) can be swapped into and out of the Power Matrix whenver the player has at least 2 in-game hours of rest. Swapping in this way does not cause a character to lose knowledge of the power.
• The naming convention for a character's class is Major Class / Sub / Minor | Kit / Prestige Class / Epic Destiny. If a character is dual-classed or single-classed they may collapse the first set of backslashes to prevent repeats (but not, say, Rogue / Rogue / Engineer or Rogue / Engineer / Rogue).
• All characters have three broad categories of powers gained from the Class and Level system. These are all called Class powers and are split into three categories: Augment [Class] Powers, Main Powers, and Source Powers. Main powers are unique to the major/sub/minor class, Augment from the kit/PrC/ED, and Source from one of the three sources that a character comes from. Characters have a ratio of Source powers depending on how they picked their MSM class. A Wizard/Engineer/Wizard will only have Arcane Source powers while a Paladin/Diabolist/Rogue will have Divine, Arcane, and Transcendental powers in about a 5:3:2 ratio.
• Unless a game effect specifies otherwise, a person may only use Sustained Powers and one Multipurpose or Twinned Power per turn. Examples of exceptions may include Action Points, a special class feature (such as Paragons being able to use any power in their WoF row for an opportunity attack).
• Powers will internally advance until they drop out of the matrix. For example, a 2nd-level power will internally advance until level 10, whereupon you are not allowed to use 3rd level powers anymore. Because of this a player will never have access to powers more than two levels lower than the highest that they can use. Higher-level powers are still better than lower-level powers, but not by an insurmountable margin because of this limited auto-advancement. This is intentionally supposed to encourage people to use their lower-level powers to pick 'niche' powers such as Animal Spirits/Animal Clan or Hall Voltage Field/Scramble Electronics.
• Class powers exist in two broad categories: Multipurpose and Twinned Powers. Multipurpose powers have one (or many) combat and utility purposes built into the power. For example, Wall of Stone can be used for building ramparts, trapping enemies, as a falling projectile, etc. However some powers, such as Fireball, can only really be used for one thing. In many cases they will be packaged with another power. These packaged powers are known as Twinned Powers. Such Twinned powers may be Drowning Bubble/Create Water, Solar Beam/Illusory Wall, Maze/Mass Teleport, Whirlwind/Dance of the Dervish, and so on. Twinned Powers are separated into two portions, an attack and a utility power with the attack power noted first. Attack powers usually use a standard action, Utility Powers generally use a move, swift, a free, or even no action. Unless otherwise stated a player can only use a utility power once per turn.
• Characters have a space on their Power Matrix known as a Sustain slot. Powers with the [Sustain] tag may be placed in that slot. When done so, the utility (or entire, if it is multipurpose) portion may be considered 'always' available. The person need only spend the action per round (standard, move, minor) to use it. If the power does not have an action required to activate it then it's considered always on. Many utility powers behave differently depending on if they're sustained; this will be noted in the power.
  
  For example, when the utility portion of Cause Light Wounds/Cure Light Wounds is used from the Sustain Slot it heals fewer hit points than if it was selected. A person may not place a power in both the Sustain slot and the Power Matrix. A player is not allowed to voluntarily leave Sustain Slots open. If this happens through for example power replacement then the player must select a power that can be sustained and immediately put it in the Sustain slot before doing anything else.

Constructing the Power Matrix

At every level except for level 2 the Power Matrix changes. Because the formula does not become predictable until level 7, players are advised to refer to the advancement chart instead of relying on a formula. Regardless, the Power Matrix changes in the following ways:

• At level 1, the matrix starts out as 3 x 4 (3 rows by four column). At level three it becomes 4 x 5. At level 6 it becomes 5 x 6.
• All players have a mandatory ratio of Class powers to Source powers, which changes each time the matrix expands. This ratio is 6:6, then 12:8, then 18:12.
• At level 3 and every third level thereafter a player gains a Sustain slot.
  Power quantity never goes up after going down.
  Many levels you will lose powers entirely. Check to ensure that you are not leaving Sustain slots open if this happens and if it does then fill the Sustain slots before you select any other powers.
• The power quantity is determined as a two-character system with a number followed by a letter. The number determines how many powers of that level you have for that class or source. The letter determines the level of the power e.g. C is a 3rd level power.
  
  Now for the chart itself:
  

  Level	Major Main	Major Source	Sub Main	Sub Source	Minor Main	Minor Source	Sustain Slots
  1	3A	3A	2A	2A	1A	1A	0
  2	3A	3A	2A	2A	1A	1A	0
  3	3B 3A	2B 2A	2B 2A	1B 1A	1B 1A	1B 1A	1
  4	4B 2A	3B 1A	3B 1A	1B 1A	1B 1A	1B 1A	1
  5	1C 3B 2A	1C 2B 1A	1C 2B 1A	1B 1A	1B 1A	1B 1A	1
  6	4C 3B 2A	3C 2B 1A	3C 2B 1A	1C 1B 1A	1C 1B 1A	1C 1B 1A	2
  7	3D 4C 2B	2D 2C 2B	2D 2C 2B	1D 1C 1B	1D 1C 1B	1D 1C 1B	2
  8	5D 3C 1B	3D 2C 1B	3D 1C 1B	1D 1C 1B	1D 1C 1B	1D 1C 1B	2
  9	3E 4D 2C	2E 2D 2C	2E 2D 2C	1E 1D 1C	1E 1D 1C	1E 1D 1C	3
  10	5E 3D 1C	3E 2D 1C	3E 1D 1C	1E 1D 1C	1E 1D 1C	1E 1D 1C	3
  11	3F 4E 2D	2F 2E 2D	2F 2E 2D	1F 1E 1D	1F 1E 1D	1F 1E 1D	3
  12	5F 3E 1D	3F 2E 1D	3F 1E 1D	1F 1E 1D	1F 1E 1D	1F 1E 1D	4
  13	3G 4F 2E	2G 2F 2E	2G 2F 2E	1G 1F 1E	1G 1F 1E	1G 1F 1E	4
  14	5G 3F 1E	3G 2F 1E	3G 1F 1E	1G 1F 1E	1G 1F 1E	1G 1F 1E	4
  15	7G 2F	4G 2F	4G 2F	2G 1F	2G 1F	2G 1F	5

  
  

Tide of Battle Class Assumptions and Fluff

While multiclass characters have several Power Matrices, such as possessing access a (shortened) Spirit Wheel and Spell Array, in game terms this is treated as having one aggregate Power Matrix. A character's main class determines which special ability they have access to.

There is nothing special about the Tide of Battle system that mandates everyone subscribe to it. However, trial and error has shown that it is easily the most efficient and powerful system for creatures to use. The vast majority of opponents that the PCs face do not use it either out of stubbornness, ignorance, laziness, or lack of training. The ramifications of not using Tide of Battle is that individual critters are wasteful in how they use their special effects; a mage mook that has enough power to constantly use for example the Flame Javelin (1st level Arcane Source power) power would if they moved to Tide of Battle be able to use 3rd and 4th level powers at the cost of not being able to ‘spam’ it.

All Power Matrices have names unique to the class that uses them. From a reductionist perspective the basic mechanics of an Engineer and a Rogue operate the same but from an in-universe perspective the powers operate differently. For example, an Engineer must calculate complex magical algorithms and guide them into their inventions while a Rogue is constantly on the lookout for openings and each attack leads and chains into another.

Spell Matrix (name of their Power Matrix) --> Hermetic Magic (Wizard, Engineer)

Special Ability - Overcasting. Arcane: Hermetic characters have an unusual WoF table, due to a technique that lets them borrow a small amount of uncast energy from an intentionally weaked spell and use it to power up a stronger one. Hermetic mages refer to this process as Overcasting. Starting at level 3, they gain one extra column that they can only fill with spells (meaning that the main powers must correspond to a class coming from the Arcane cource), called the Overspell column. Half of the entries in that column--round up or down, player's choice--must be filled with one level of spells two levels lower than the highest that they are allowed to have. In return, the rest of the entries in the Overspell column can be filled with a spell up to one level higher than what they are allowed to have--meaning that it is possible for Hermetic mages to cast up to 8th level spells! Note that while they can fill the Overspell column with any spell, even from the Chaos school, the illustrious 8th level spells only exist in the basic rules in the Hermetic school. In order to use these higher-level spells, they must first declare that they are Overcasting, then must use one of the lowest-level spells in the Overspell column. This means that they can only start to Overcast if they rolled an appropriate row first! After that, the hermetic mage has up to 1 minute in which they can roll a row which has a higher-level spell in the Overspell column and can use it. Edge (ED: This is referring to a mechanic I haven't completed yet, I haven't finished it yet so just ignore it for now) cannot be used to cast a spell in the Overspell column unless the character already used a lower-level spell in that column. After a spell is Overcast, the mage cannot use this option again for 30 minutes thereupon must start the process again. Using Edge as part of Overcast does not stop a character from being able to Overcast normally or even use Edge a second time.

Chaos Roulette --> (Magus, Diabolist)

Holy Litany --> (Paladin, Luminary)
Special Ability - Conviction. Spiritual: Divine characters can cycle through ther Holy Litany table via concentration at a quickened rate in order to find the perfect prayer. At the end of their turn, if their result on their Holy Litany is the same as what they rolled for the previous round, they may roll again. Once they reroll they cannot go back to the old result nor reroll again. In order to use the new result, the Divine character must spend a Move action at the beginning of their turn to do nothing but quickly and silently meditate. If they fail to take this action either intentionally or due to outside influences (such as being stunned between rounds), the character loses the ability to access powers on their Holy Litany until their next turn. They may use Conviction again at the end of this turn if they so desire.

Spirit Wheel --> (Shaman, Warden)
Special Ability - Wrath of the Spirits.

Ougi Flow --> (Rogue, Paragon)

Special Ability - Signature Move. Martial characters, despite being a master of a hundred techniques, tend to have a repertoire of moves that they favor over another. Exceeding amounts of time spent practicing leaves them able to flow into these techniques more easily than other, making them more available in a pinch. All Martial Characters gain an extra column, known as Signature Moves, on their Ougi Flow. They may fill this column with any Martial technique they already know, as long as no power is duplicated more than once and no row has the same two powers. The downside is that Edge cannot be used to access any power a character knows that is in a Signature move column; the character is already considering to be concentrating on these techniques as much as possible!

Psionic Mapping --> (Monk, Psion)
Fluff:
When someone using the Transcendental: Psionic Source arranges their Psionic Map, the game effect is of them mentally rearranging the nerves and synapses of their mind and body in order to use their techniques most efficiently. When they muster the mental energy to use their techniques, it activates chakras and thought clusters according to the pattern in order to manifest the technique as quickly as possible. Most notably, creatures without a vetebrae are not able to use psionic mapping; those creatures that still manage to do so such as Thought Worms or Mind Golems manifest psionic techniques do so at an inherently crippled rate.

Special Ability - Remapping: As your body cycles through its thought nodes, you are able to carry some leftover mental energy in order to 'hold' some techniques. The process of holding is slightly injurous to your psionic mapping, meaning that you can only do it in parts. When you roll on the WoF table at the end of the round, you can choose one technique that you did not use this round. The round after next you can use that power in addition to what you roll on your WoF. You may only remap one power at a time and can technically remap indefinitely but you lose your remapped power when you start a turn with access to the row that power is in--meaning that it behooves a psionic to remap a different power if what they're holding would be available 'normally' the next round.

Being rendered stunned or unconscious or even killed (as long as the body is still intact and hasn't been dead for very long) does not affect your Psionic Mapping, but having your body or chakras changed grievously such as being polymorphed to a grossly unfamiliar or invertebraic form renders you unable to access your psionic map. A psionic map, once lost, can be regained as a move action as long as you are eligible to regain it. This affects applies to your psionic powers even if you did not select the remapping option.

Non-ToB Assumptions
(These aren't necessary to get a ken of the system, but they do give an idea of where I'm going with this)

• Attribute bonuses do NOT add to level-based checks (such as attack rolls, skills, etc.). You can either your attribute bonus or your skill check modifier, whichever is higher. Since people randomly roll for stats in this edition, the intention is that people who have a good initial roll will outpace their companions in certain areas but by level 5 or so will either need to have a ginormous ability score bulge (such as being a nymph or a giant) or will have to invest in the skill.
• There's no such thing as ECL or monster levels. Since the assumption of this system is that powers are race-agnostic and outstrip racial abilities anyway, if you want to be a high-level character but also an exotic race like a red dragon or a mummy, you need a minimum level and that's the end of that. PCs may encounter things like level 1 wizard titans, but they are not allowed to play a titan and a wizard lower than level 11. Most races come with racial powers; in many cases these come with a maximum recommended level to them. Meaning that the PC must have DM permission to put the power onto their Power Matrix if they exceed this level.
• Hit points are mostly-fixed. Instead of gaining hit points, people gain Armor Rating (Class) or Damage Reduction and get a one-time bonus or penalty due to their size. For PCs of different sizes, this is balanced out by size penalty/bonuses to Armor Rating. This has the intentional effect of halfling characters getting hit less but also suffering increased penalties if they do and vice-versa. This means that due to rider effects on powers the Armor Rating/Hit Point ratio cannot be the same.
• Because of the above system, wound penalties are now in place. If you suffer enough damage you will take penalties to Armor Rating, Attack Rolls, etc.. The rate at which you take wound penalties is not proportional to hit points, they instead happen at fixed points on the damage tract unless the creature is at full or nearly-full hit points. This means that small or naturally weak creatures can be taken out of the fight with one good hit.

[mean_liar]

That's a fantastic skeleton, Lago. You really should work to flesh that out.

[hogarth]

If I have 60 abilities and I want an AoE, but only 6 are AoE, I can discard 54 without even having to compare of them.

You're not supposed to want an AoE. Desire is the origin of suffering.

Om.

[PhoneLobster]

The vast majority of opponents that the PCs face do not use it either out of stubbornness, ignorance, laziness, or lack of training. The ramifications of not using Tide of Battle is that individual critters are wasteful in how they use their special effects; a mage mook that has enough power to constantly use for example the Flame Javelin (1st level Arcane Source power) power would if they moved to Tide of Battle be able to use 3rd and 4th level powers at the cost of not being able to ‘spam’ it...

...There's no such thing as ECL

There was not much... content... in your outline, not that it wasn't required material but without powers, well... (mind you there is that whole "elaborate and variable tables with odd sided dice and blah blah... that could use a whole hell of a lot of not being remotely like that).

But this jumps out at me. You absolutely eschew any variation from strict level based measures of character power by ruling out ECL and friends (probably a good thing), but then CHOOSE to allow your WoF, for no particular reason, to transform into a crowbar which lets you vary your power outside of level based limits. In a purely arbitrary manner, on spammy NPC mooks.

That's probably going to be a problem for you. It's really a WoF agnostic problem, (even if you managed to glue it onto the option to use your WoF implementation), but it certainly bore pointing out as a bit of a bad design decision.

PS. BTW, a 15x6 WoF matrix??? Really?? OK so that includes all level variation/advancement complexity/size costs, but... REALLY??? Isn't that, oh I don't know, insanely too large?

[mean_liar]

PS. BTW, a 15x6 WoF matrix??? Really?? OK so that includes all level variation/advancement complexity/size costs, but... REALLY??? Isn't that, oh I don't know, insanely too large?

I think that's 5x6: 30 powers total at level 15. How did you get to 15x6? On second thought, save that for if Lago makes a thread on his above idea. But I'm pretty sure that's a 5x6 at its most-complex.

[Lago PARANOIA]

but then CHOOSE to allow your WoF, for no particular reason, to transform into a crowbar which lets you vary your power outside of level based limits. In a purely arbitrary manner, on spammy NPC mooks.

It's an explanation as to why everyone doesn't do it. The metagame answer is that it's probably too complicated for for a DM to do this for 4-15 monstahs, but the in-game answer is 'your kung-fu is better than theirs'. For whatever reason the NPCs are unknowingly using a completely inferior power scheme except for a select few who show up as Psycho Rangers or whatever. Of course if they realized that what they were doing was stupid and switched to the PC scheme in-universe encounters would vastly jump in difficulty. But it doesn't for the same reason not everyone knows Hokuto Shinken or can Energybend or can go Super Saiyan.

That said, there's no reason for PCs to ever do that since it's completely inferior except for die-hard Rat Flail players. It's a watch all of these NPCs derp out on their powers. Aren't you glad you have Super Special Training/Destiny/Insight? This means that you don't really fight 1st level apprentice mages or knights or whatever, even at 1st level. You're doing something like fighting 3rd to 5th level mages at level 1 unless you meet an opponent (likely an Evil Twin or proto-Linear Guild) who learned your own special brand of phlebtonium. Also meaning that even though PCs go up to level 15 they can take on gods and shit because even though the gods are really strong their kung fu is lousy compared to yours. Or if that's too abstract, recall all of the movies where someone weak but skilled was able to beat someone who was on paper a physical match for them because they were trained in karate or some shit.

[MGuy]

I for one am interested in seeing exactly what you have.

[MGuy]

@DS: I never said I didn't like WoF. I, in fact, explicitly said my problem is that its being paraded as better than everything else. also:
1) I disagree with this one. Other systems do the same but the assumption made is that people want to avoid too much variety. As long as I have to take the assumption as true then I'll disagree with this point whenever it is brought up.
2) This is not/shouldn't be a comparison between Vanician vs WoF and nothing else.
3)Is just stupid because you can always do that in any system that allows you to have options.

[PhoneLobster]

I think that's 5x6: 30 powers total at level 15. How did you get to 15x6? On second thought, save that for if Lago makes a thread on his above idea. But I'm pretty sure that's a 5x6 at its most-complex.

I think I skimmed his level advancement table as his WoF table.

Protip. His WoF by level advancement table should be in the form of an actual WoF table with the spaces filled in with the levels at which ... those spaces are filled in. Much more intuitive and easier to see the outcome and level advancement of the WoF table.

Intuitive enough that I had assumed his great mess of letters and numbers was some sort of attempt at that.

[PhoneLobster]

It's an explanation...

I understand the fluff explanation.

What I find problematic is...

You're doing something like fighting 3rd to 5th level mages at level 1 unless...

Because what you seem to be doing is actually giving out a -2 to -4 ECL "I don't use WoF" to an arbitrary and unknown number of opponents. And then arbitrarily sometimes there is a guy who... doesn't have that.

All in a scheme in which you say ECL type effects don't exist... only clearly a rather major and common one does. The contradiction is troublesome and without some fairly clear clarification on the actual value and frequency of this particular NPC modifier there could be some fairly significant problems.

[MGuy]

After reading this a lot of things seem to be missing. Items/equipment rules, How powers interact with what you wield, how positioning affects "Tide of Battle", and many many other things.

[Username17]

WoF doesn't allow you to evaluate your choices any better than any other resource management system. Its already been said these systems cut your choices. You are already going to be evaluating less than your entire list of choices. WoF doesn't make it any easier.

For fuck's sake MGuy, shut up. This is wrong. This is mathematically provably wrong. Evaluating a shorter list of choices is easier by definition.

You aren't being terribly incoherent, but you seem to be making an argument based on shifting goalposts. What WoF does is bring a larger number of total abilities to a more manageable number of abilities this round. You can model it as making your round-by-round number of choices easier or you can model it as giving you access to more total abilities. At this point, you've flip-flopped and argued against it doing both of those things. The best I could possibly do is give you the benefit of the doubt that you are using fuzzy thinking and arguing that it doesn't increase the number of total abilities on the sheet while you are thinking about it from the standpoint of its round by round output, and claiming that it doesn't make your round by round choices easier when you are thinking about it from the standpoint that the resource management system is going to have to give a manageable number of abilities in any case.

But the truth is that WoF does both things. A 6/36 matrix is both more manageable and more total abilities than a D&D Charge Caster. You aren't just shifting goalposts back and forth, you're factually wrong.

-Username17

[DSMatticus]

Other systems do the same but the assumption made is that people want to avoid too much variety.

Nothing you said had anything to do with this point. You said you disagree, and then talked about wanting to avoid too much variety. That is a non-sequitur. I said WoF causes more variety, and whether or not you like that, I don't care, it's a fact of WoF and it's something it does. It causes variety by directly preventing repetition.

2) This is not/shouldn't be a comparison between Vanician vs WoF and nothing else.

You're completely welcome to start naming them. WoF allows more simultaneous good abilities on your character sheet than Vancian, than 4e, than at-will usage...

3)Is just stupid because you can always do that in any system that allows you to have options.

I thought when I said 'allowed' you would pick up that I meant 'allowed to do so in a reasonable time that doesn't have the players pulling their hair out.' I'll rephrase, 'allow to do so without significantly slowing combat.' Vancian magic 'allows' you to consider every available option that round, but your friends will want to hit you.

[Koumei]

Frank: no matter what I roll, will there be a "Win now" result I can pick? To stick with the 3.5 comparison, is it possible that 1 will give me Hold Monster, 2 will give me Deep Slumber, 3 will give me Charm Monster, 4 will give me Forcecage, 5 will give me Acid Fog and 6 will give me Power Word: Stun?

Because I think that's my biggest beef with it. If I can still cast "Fuck you" each turn, even if it is a randomly selected "Fuck you" and I never know what it's going to be, then I suppose it doesn't matter.

If we're looking at a 4E style "Combat lasts so long that you need a variety of attacks to maintain interest" (they forgot the last bit), then it would be better to just ditch that and have good powers rather than try to artificially inject interest. But if the combat takes less time than a tea break, I'm cool with that.

After all, combat itself isn't interesting if it isn't full of energetic young ladies leaping around in short skirts, so in my ideal type of game, using the same power every round would be like using it once per session or two on average. Even games I run tend to have "I use my Ranged Smite Sneak Attack Fire Trap Flask Combo" be pretty rare so it's not an issue. And I forget that most games seriously have four or more fights in a session and people want that.

So what *is* the scale of power that WoF is looking at?

In other news, having recently entered a confectionery aisle, I'm willing to believe I'm at least as shit at making on-the-spot decisions as anyone else. At the sweet store I just plan ahead of time, because I know they have dry ice cream and the yoghurt-based chewable sweets.

[jadagul]

Frank: no matter what I roll, will there be a "Win now" result I can pick? To stick with the 3.5 comparison, is it possible that 1 will give me Hold Monster, 2 will give me Deep Slumber, 3 will give me Charm Monster, 4 will give me Forcecage, 5 will give me Acid Fog and 6 will give me Power Word: Stun?

Because I think that's my biggest beef with it. If I can still cast "Fuck you" each turn, even if it is a randomly selected "Fuck you" and I never know what it's going to be, then I suppose it doesn't matter.

If we're looking at a 4E style "Combat lasts so long that you need a variety of attacks to maintain interest" (they forgot the last bit), then it would be better to just ditch that and have good powers rather than try to artificially inject interest. But if the combat takes less time than a tea break, I'm cool with that.

After all, combat itself isn't interesting if it isn't full of energetic young ladies leaping around in short skirts, so in my ideal type of game, using the same power every round would be like using it once per session or two on average. Even games I run tend to have "I use my Ranged Smite Sneak Attack Fire Trap Flask Combo" be pretty rare so it's not an issue. And I forget that most games seriously have four or more fights in a session and people want that.

So what *is* the scale of power that WoF is looking at?

In other news, having recently entered a confectionery aisle, I'm willing to believe I'm at least as shit at making on-the-spot decisions as anyone else. At the sweet store I just plan ahead of time, because I know they have dry ice cream and the yoghurt-based chewable sweets.

Koumei: I think, based on stuff Frank has said earlier, that the idea is precisely "Combat lasts so long that you need a variety of attacks to maintain interest". If combat lasts two rounds and most of the game is pre- or post- combat, it's totally okay that you only have one or two actions you might take in combat--that's all you have time to take anyway. But if you want a combat to last ten rounds, you need to do something to the tactical situation so that the same power isn't optimal for all ten of those rounds.

4E attempts to do that by rationing powers--and so it's true that you don't use the same power every round. You use a daily, then you use all your encounters, and then you use the same power every round. But as you say that's not much better.

In order to get genuine variety, you need either a random input or a pseudo-random (i.e. not actually random but complicated enough that you can't see where it's going in advance) input at the beginning of each round. WOF is to give a random input; the ideas in the "making at-will attacks interesting" thread are essentially creating a state machine to give a pseudo-random input at the beginning of each round.

[Koumei]

Right. So basically, WoF is made precisely for the style of game that I don't want. No wonder I had so many problems with it, it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in my style of game and, in order for it to be relevant, you would have to invent the problem for it to fix.

[jadagul]

Koumei, that sounds about right. So if you look at the thread on at-will systems, Frank said this:

I think it's important to note that the reason why movespam doesn't get extremely old for those characters in 3e D&D is because combat is extremely short. If the players were confronted with combats that lasted more than a couple rounds, the fact that you were dropping Fireballs every round would get really boring really fast.

In short: keeping an all at-will combat system requires the tactical inputs to be radically reshuffled every couple of decision points. In 3e this is achieved by having the MC draw up a whole new combat with all new participants and all new terrain every couple of rounds. This works, but people call it "rocket launcher tag" and they are right to do so.

If you want to take the rocket launcher tag out and keep the at-will ability activation in, you need to radically reshuffle tactical inputs inherently and continuously as part of a "normal" combat.

He specifically says that if your fights are two rounds long this is all basically irrelevant, but a lot of people don't like that so you need to do something of this shape. If you do like that, the whole discussion basically doesn't affect you at all.

[Koumei]

Fantastic. I can wander off and pay attention to better things then.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Because what you seem to be doing is actually giving out a -2 to -4 ECL "I don't use WoF" to an arbitrary and unknown number of opponents. And then arbitrarily sometimes there is a guy who... doesn't have that.

All in a scheme in which you say ECL type effects don't exist... only clearly a rather major and common one does. The contradiction is troublesome and without some fairly clear clarification on the actual value and frequency of this particular NPC modifier there could be some fairly significant problems.

You're getting your wires crossed.

1) ECL has nothing to do with monster CR or whatever in this system. There's no such thing as ECL. There's just a minimum level you need to be to be a monster. This is explicitly so that by the time the character gets to that level their racial abilities mean squat. While a succubus's abilities are game-defining and breaking at levels 1-4, by levels 5-6 they're just interesting adjuncts to add variety but not better than vanilla races in the same class and past that her abilities are pointless compared to class abilities. This is to avoid the situation in 3E where someone gets overcharged for an ability that's relevant or even gamebreaking at low levels but only a mild adjunct at higher levels. This system is supposed to skip that by putting such characters on a curve where their racial abilities are already obsolete but then not charging them for it.

2) Handing out a CR penalty or bonus because the enemies have inferior or superior kung fu is the point. The thing is that because the vast majority of enemies have an inferior phlebtonium scheme it's easier just to say that the crippled pseudo-charge scheme is the default and you have an edge against 95% of critters of your power level. If they do use ToB then it makes them more difficult (same as if they used a template in 3E or 4E D&D) so they need a CR boost. An apprentice mage that uses ToB is about the same difficulty as a Town Guard mage that doesn't. A Town Guard mage that uses ToB is about the same level of difficulty as the king's elite mage bodyguards that don't. Etc. etc.

This system is to allow mirror matches to happen when the DM is in the mood for it without having to keep track of 20+ or even 10+ powers for every critter.

[PhoneLobster]

For fuck's sake MGuy, shut up. This is wrong. This is mathematically provably wrong. Evaluating a shorter list of choices is easier by definition.

A pity your "shorter list" is 36 options long.

See unfortunately your turn by turn selection isn't really helping with long term familiarization, if anything it's blatantly hindering it (and for no good reason).

You aren't being terribly incoherent, but you seem to be making an argument based on shifting goalposts...
...a shorter list of choices...
...a larger number of total abilities...
...a more manageable number of abilities...
...you've flip-flopped and argued against it doing both of those things...
...you are using fuzzy thinking...

Ah yeah. The WoF critics are the ones with shifting fuzzy thinking posts. Yeah.

But the truth is that WoF does both things.

Have you considered that maybe the critics are right. Maybe WoF isn't in fact "the best of both worlds" on choice. Perhaps it's the worst of both worlds on choice.

And also perhaps that if you believe your system is simultaneously the best at two directly contradictory goals, and that you can in the same post that you criticize your critics for "having it both ways" you respond by having it both ways yourself that perhaps you are fucking nuts.

Edit: Shorter version Frank "It is impossible for WoF to do two things at once! Are you crazy? Instead it does two things at once!"

[Murtak]

PL, would you mind not spewing utter nonsense? I don't like WoF, but even I can see that it does indeed allow you to cram in more powers into your big list without suffering option paralysis. That is the one thing it does, and it does this well. And by the way, comparing a hypothetical 6x6 list to a DnD spell list and claiming 36 total abilities is too many is blatant bullshit. A first level cleric has more spells available to him than that. As does any mid-level wizard. Either compare "what can I cast right now?" or compare "what could I cast at all?". Instead you are comparing DnD "what can I cast right now?" to WoF "what could I cast at all?".

If you want to complain about WoF, complain about not being able to save your fireball for the perfect situation. Complain about not being able to go with 10 lightning bolts and 10 single copies of niche spells. Complain about not being able to set up combos. There is lots of things to dislike. But "omg too much options" is not one of them.

[MGuy]

@Frank: I said, in the very part you quoted, that other systems cut your options down as well. I'm not arguing that less options =/= easier to evaluate, just that this system isn't the only one that does it. Its right there in the part you quoted. I don't understand how this would be confusing unless you're reading it with the assumption that I'm saying WoF = bad ior evaluating less choices = bad. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that it isn't better than other systems. I dont' even care, and at this point I don't believe I've made an argument against having a large list of abilities or WoF's ability to have mentioned large list. I certainly have been arguing that it cutting your list down doesn't make it better other resource management systems since the whole point of these systems is to cut your options down.

You can have a smaller number of abilities to think about in every battle than your total list of available powers ever. In a charge system if you had a large list of abilities to choose from but you had to pick which ones you were using for the day [vanician] then you wouldn't have a giant list of abilities to worry about every round. What's more is that every round, every combat you use them your number of options grow smaller and smaller. Additionally if you double up on a single kind of option its like having the same one twice which also cuts down the number of different options you have to think about. WoF does this same thing by making your options, from your list, random. Is this better? I don't think so but it does the same fuckin' thing.

If your concern is just to keep the number of options low you could do that just by restraining how many options a character has in a given combat. If your concern after that is to have a bigger list of abilities make it so that they get that big list but have to prepare their shit. A big list of options only really matters outside of combat because in combat by WoF you're not using all your options at a given time. In this fashion WoF cuts out the "choose your abilities for the day" part and just says fuck it you may or may not use them here, here, and here.

Here's what I am arguing against in plain old English:
1) That WoF eliminates heuristics.
2) That by virtue of cutting your options down WoF makes you make more tactically sound decisions.
3) that WoF is inherently better than other resource management systems.


@DS: You are spewing too much hate to get my point. I'm not arguing against variety but the assumption was made, when Lago made his Q+A that people in general want to avoid variety. WoF does not prevent you from doing this at all as far as I can tell in any capacity that couldn't be achieved by other systems. He supposed that in a system, even one that you could use your abilities to literally do anything, people would prefer to default and actively avoid doing anything unique. I can see this happening at just the same capacity in WoF specifically because it requires thinking over your abilities more often and, in order to avoid this, people will likely make matrices that avoid variety.

Plenty I've said had to do with this. The fact that people will cut down their options, fix up their matrices so they don't have a lot of very unique abilities in them, etc. Though you might've missed the fact I've mentioned this shit because of how defensive you're getting.

On my second point: Vanician and 4E are charge systems. If you wanted you could completely have a larger list of abilities on your charge system [Vanician casters certainly do] and cut them down for in combat use (via preparation) any other arguments you have against charges probably will have to do with implementation of the charge system. I'd be happy to argue over implementation but because this system hasn't been implemented yet I can't. As for naming them I believe Frank made a list but the ones I can remember are: Charge, Cooldown, Rage, Unlimited.

On the last point I believe Ive already mentioned playing CCGs right? When you play Yu-Gi-Oh or MAGIC people only have 5-7 cards in their hands yet are still subject to Option Paralysis. Now its true that evaluating 6 options is easier than evaluating 20 but chances are people aren't evaluating 20 options when they are making the decision about what they are going to do. This was stated repeatedly (the big hub bub over heuristics, defaulting, and scripting) and if I'm going to accept that shit as true then reasonably you can accept that this isn't an argument about 6 vs 20 options.

[DSMatticus]

when Lago made his Q+A that people in general want to avoid variety.

Again, this is tangential to the point. All I said was that WoF added variety. Whether you think people will hate that or love that or meh about it, that has nothing to do with what I've said. I am stating the facts of what WoF does, and variety is one of those.

If people hate variety, then WoF is a bad thing for having variety. If people love variety, then WoF is a good thing for giving it to them. But either way, WoF still has variety. And that's literally all I said. Whether or not you think people will like variety is irrelevant to a discussion of whether or not WoF leads to variety (I believe you're mistaking me for Lago, and assuming everything I say is praise of WoF).

If you wanted you could completely have a larger list of abilities on your charge system [Vanician casters certainly do] and cut them down for in combat use (via preparation)

You are comparing very different quantities here. Vancian magic has three things: charges known, charges prepared, and charges used in actual combat. You're using 'charges known' for the comparison here, and that's an unfair, biased comparison. Especially when you imagine WoF as only 'powers on matrix, powers used in combat.' You can create a WoF system where characters know powers that are not on their matrix and they can change their matrix occasionally. So you get: powers known, powers in matrix, and powers used in combat.

Now we can create fair analogues:
charges known -> powers known
charges prepared -> powers in matrix
charges used in combat -> powers used in combat

Charges known and powers known can always be large quantities. Like, seriously huge quantities. So let's ignore them.

Comparing charges prepared with powers in matrix... Both of these can also be really huge numbers. For Vancian magic, you can just keep adding higher-level powers. For WoF, you keep adding rows to the matrix (assuming you roll by row, not column). But the point is that in Vancian magic, to maintain a small number of options, powers have to be tiered. Some abilities have to 'suck' compared to others to keep the number of options small and avoid option paralysis. Meanwhile, in WoF, it is not necessary to design abilities to 'suck' compared to others. Abilities can be roughly equivalently good at all points of the player's career, and it still avoids option paralysis. Again, this is not necessarily a good thing, it is just a thing that WoF does and that is all.

As for charges used in combat and powers used in combat, these are going to be similar numbers. The difference here is in the variety of abilities used. People using charges will tend to go through them in very similar orderings. WoF breaks up orderings. Again, this is not necessarily a good thing either. Just another thing that WoF does.

This was stated repeatedly (the big hub bub over heuristics, defaulting, and scripting) and if I'm going to accept that shit as true then reasonably you can accept that this isn't an argument about 6 vs 20 options.

Heuristics have been discussed to death, and I have pointed out the problems.
1) You cannot enforce heuristics. They exist entirely in the player's mind. If a player does not play by heuristics, he will either cause strife at the table or slow the game down or both.
2) Heuristics that result in significant speed boosts are suboptimal, and they involve asking the players at the table to consciously make worse decisions.
If your system depends on heuristics to generate speed at the table, it's a bad system (or rather, it's made one bad design decision) because correct gameplay requires system mastery. Using a mechanic to limit those options, instead of heuristics, is consistent, reliable, and enforcable.

And yes, this is about 6 vs 20 options. Having 20 options is meaningless if you default/script to the same 3-4. That means you haven't actually considered the entire tactical situation. By limiting the number of options down to a smaller number, we can get people to consider everything at once. Again, this may or may not be good to you, but it's something WoF does and that is all.

Again,
1) WoF gives you variety. I don't care if you like variety, WoF gives it to you, and you can decide if you like WoF based on that.
2) WoF gives you more equivalently good abilities than Vancian, than unlimited, than rage, etc, etc. It fits lots of equivalently good abilities in its mid-tier availability (powers in matrix compared to charges prepared), something few other systems can boast. I don't care if you like this, either, but it's still just something WoF does.
3) WoF allows players to fully evaluate their turn options and the tactical situation in a reasonable time. Again, don't care if you like it, it's just something this does and 20 options + scripts/heuristics can't.

[mean_liar]

RE #2, characterizing WoF as having lots of "equivalently good" abilities is a misleading rhetorical flourish. It has lots of equivalent abilities, not equivalently good. That "good" adjective is subjective, and a threat of WoF as in any game is that you end up with a raft of bullshit powers.

WoF in particular necessarily has to have a greater weight on equivalency of effect from power-to-power since it generally lacks any other drain mechanic: having ANY clearly superior choices available in any given moveset obviates a lot of WoF's positives.

RE #3, "Reasonable time" is entirely arbitrary, considering that the decried heuristics reduce time-to-decision considerably. One might easily argue that heuristics speed gameplay since you aren't expected to evaluate X options every round based on a dieroll.

[MGuy]

1) The variety WoF introduces is no better than any other system. If you're going to say one system limits variety because of the way people use it then it is just as relevant to say that people will limit their variety in this system. All WoF does is FORCE you to use a random set of moves. It doesn't mean that it automatically has more variety than another system it means that it randomizes your choices. Random does not mean variety because you can randomly be choosing from a list of palette swap abilities.

2)This has a few problems.
1st you're assuming that I was comparing charges known with shit in the matrix and that's not true. I was responding to Frank's assertion that WoF can take bigger lists of stuff and that on a round by round basis it allows you to concentrate on less stuff than anything else. What I was saying is that this is the ideal for any resource management system. WoF is just another resource management system and Frank's statement only holds true depending on its implementation. To state that WoF does it as if no other system can is being unfair. Its unfair because WoF hasn't been implemented and picking apart other implementations while having the defense of this system being purely hypothetical is the wrong way to approach it.

2nd Your assumption on charge systems has to do with implementation. If the number of charges you get per encounter and the number of abilities you can prepare never actually goes up significantly while you get more and more abilities to be able to prepare then you reduce the risk of characters being overwhelmed with options is greatly reduced. Combats lasts between 4-6 rounds regularly (assuming 1 ability per turn) so you don't even NEED to have that many charges available for a given battle just a limit to w many prepared "awesome things" you can do for a given combat. With the right implementation you can get charges to work just fine on that front.

3rd Again your assumption is people won't choose variety in one system but will choose to use it in WoF. If they can avoid variety (which I'm hypothesizing that they can) then my assumption that people will avoid doing so in this system is just as valid as you saying they won't in another.

3) Again you're making the assumption that people will use heuristics in one game and not in the other. You say "there's no need for heuristics in WoF" but that won't keep people from using them. Its the natural thing to do. Remember that CCG comparison I made? That applies here. They either use heuristics for their 6 options or they will take longer to make a decision. It works the same both ways and assumes that other systems can't help cut down choices. If I have 3 ranged abilities and three melee ones then by virtue of not being in melee range half of my options aren't even on the table. The opposite is true if I'm stuck in melee range (if the system is worth a damn).

Also, again, any argument about how "suboptimal" it is for people to cut out and not consider choices is bullshit when you have a system that explicitly forces you to not be able to make optimal choices or even have all of your abilities. If you're going to compare 20 options to WoF in this aspect you should be comparing 20 to 36. You only get to use 1/6th of your options and can only consider them at random. Choosing, yourself, to consider 1/4th of your options out of 20 is no better no worse. I am so tired of seeing you say WoF allows you to consider "everything" when the system DIRECTLY forces you not to!

So for your conclusion: 1) doesn't give any more variety than any other system possibly could.
2) It doesn't necessarily give you equivalent good abilities because that's entirely dependent on how you implement it. Since it HASN'T been implemented there is no PROOF of this assertion.
3) This is again an assumption. Depending on how it is laid out this could be true or not true. Other systems can limit your options on a round to round basis just as well as WoF can depending on how it is implemented.