[Politics] Abortion Failure Megathread

[tzor]

I demand to get a serious, non-waffling answer to this question someday. Just give me a goddamn fine amount or jail time or whatever. I have had no success with this on other boards or in real life getting a straight answer, but hope springs eternal.

First offense: Revoking of medical license

Second offense: As per any practice of medicine sans license

If you are caught practicing medicine without a license, a person may face potential prison time of up to five years and a fine of up to $5,000.00 per count. In addition, many severe sanctions and civil penalties may exist.

[Psychic Robot]

pretty sure he was talking about the women

[PhoneLobster]

First offense: Revoking of medical license

So then it isn't murder and you don't regard fetuses and zygotes as human beings at all.

Also. I was not aware all pregnant women were issued medical licenses as a sort of "get out of murder free" card?

Or could it be you are still avoiding the bulk of the question?.

[tzor]

Oh they get away Scott Free. That's how the legal system works.

[tzor]

First offense: Revoking of medical license

So then it isn't murder and you don't regard fetuses and zygotes as human beings at all.

Also. I was not aware all pregnant women were issued medical licenses as a sort of "get out of murder free" card?

Normally I don't bother responding to you PL; in this case I'll make an exception.

Proving first degree murder would probably be exceptionally difficult. No abortion doctor is that stupid post law. It is highly doubtful that an absolute ban would be established and so the basic first defense is reasonable doubt against some portion of the law that allowed the exception. It would be enough to prevent the first degree murder charge but not enough to prove reasons for suspension of licence.

It's the Doctor who is doing the killing. At worst, the woman is an "accessory to the crime" but that requires proving the crime. Again, I don't think that this would be as easy as you might think. Moreover, conditions and circumstances can mitigate the cupibility of the woman in the charge of assessory to murder. Getting a conviction before a jury is going to be very difficult.

Remember that while we often associate "murder" with "kill" the term is a legal one and has a number of specific requirements and burdens of proof. You can easily kill someone and not be convicted of murder (in either first or second degree). That does not make the victim any less human.

[wotmaniac]

Remember that while we often associate "murder" with "kill" the term is a legal one and has a number of specific requirements and burdens of proof.

which is why juries often have the option to choose from a smorgasbord of conviction options; i.e., the jury can reduce the charge to something lesser in an effort to get a conviction.

[sabs]

so, if I pay someone to murder you.. at best, I'm an accessory to the crime?

AWESOME!

Sign me up.

[PhoneLobster]

Sign me up.

Just get your medical license first.

Just in case!

[PhoneLobster]

Normally I don't bother responding to you PL

Have I really so totally embarrassed you that many times?

Hey? Are we having an economic crisis yet?

Your "it's too hard so everyone gets away with murder!" line is as lame as your former "it should be illegal but without any punishment!" line you USED to ramble on about.

You have unlimited state resources to gather evidence. No privacy barrier or big brother surveillance scheme is beyond the reach of your anti-abortion law makers.

You HAVE caught a women having an abortion. You DO have the evidence. You are NOT permitted to re-imagine Lago's question as "what would you do if you caught a woman MAYBE having an abortion?" It was definitely an abortion, you have it in fucking writing signed in blood if you need it because you are so damn WEAK and WAFFLING about this.

It was an abortion. The jury is almost certainly going to convict, the judge will sentence according to YOUR fantasy guidelines. WHAT IS THE PUNISHMENT?

[tzor]

Normally I don't bother responding to you PL

Have I really so totally embarrassed you that many times?

No, you're just on my ignore list.
It's far better than going to my doctor to increase the dosage of my high blood pressure medication.

[PhoneLobster]

It was an abortion. The jury is almost certainly going to convict, the judge will sentence according to YOUR fantasy guidelines. WHAT IS THE PUNISHMENT?

[tzor]

so, if I pay someone to murder you.. at best, I'm an accessory to the crime?

No, but then it's hard to put the laws of contract killing in this context. Yes there might be an exception; you might be able to get a life sentence. I'm not going to place any money on it, given the current case examples of actual killing of ones children cases that have been tried lately. It's very hard to convict a mom of murder.

[Psychic Robot]

tzor you are a coward.

[Neeeek]

tzor you are a coward.

Plus, utterly ignorant of the law.

[Psychic Robot]

guys guys guys. if a woman hires a contract killer to murder someone she is not at fault (lol j/k I'm just a pussy who won't stand up for what I believe in)

[PhoneLobster]

guys guys guys. if a woman hires a contract killer to murder someone she is not at fault (lol j/k I'm just a pussy who won't stand up for what I believe in)

I'm pretty sure you are mis-representing Tzor's argument.

I'm fairly certain it all depends on whether or not the contract killer, or the woman, or possibly the victim have revocable medical licenses.

Or maybe if the woman is the mother of one of the other participants, it changes everything about appropriate sentencing according to Tzor's ideals, apparently.

And anyway. Apparently, according to Tzor no court in the world would ever be insane enough to support what Tzor wants, so him not telling us what he wants if they did makes what he wants seem perfectly sane. Perfectly sane. Apparently.

[Draco_Argentum]

It doesn't seem to cross Tzor's mind that no jury being willing to convict means its a crap idea for a law.

[tzor]

One of the reasons I love abstract straw men discussions. Just to hear your mindless bigoted rantings and your attempt to transplant your bigorty on others.

This whole notion that every woman who enters an abortion clinic is somehow a contract killer is fascinating, if only for the notion of how you view women in trouble. It's the classic male "blame the bitch" syndrone. Just see this reinforces my opinion of how much you rotten progressives are real bastards (in so many ways).

Of course that con man of a sham artist (the abortion doctor) who simply offers a solution to a problem while insisting that it's merely a mass of tissue is clearly not the problem. The fact that his ogrganization pays millions to prevent that woman from even getting an ultrasound to show her it's a real human being and also pays lawyers to close down any other alternative to the practice is not important to you. The fact that these mills are often unsanitary and not equipped to handle any complications of a medical surgical procedure is also not important to you. The fact that they will never do any post operative care and leave that woman to her own devices after such a traumatic operation with far reaching consequences to mind and body is also not important to you.

Nope, you just want me to "convict the bitch."

Yes, it really says volumes about you all.

[rampaging-poet]

You seem to be under the impression that all women who get abortions are confused teenagers that stumble into clinics by chance. At some point, there will be at least one woman that knows exactly what she's doing and seeks out an abortionist anyway. If abortion is murder, then hiring an abortionist is equivalent to hiring an assassin, and I doubt you're insane enough to believe hiring an assassin shouldn't be punishable.

Not every woman who gets an abortion is a confused teenager taken advantage of by a smooth-talking con-man assassin. A variety of other scenarios have been presented to you in this very thread, and while you can ramble on about how none of the happen in the real world (hint: they do), any laws you put in place have to be able to handle them.

If abortion is murder, then any woman getting an abortion is at least an accessory to the crime. She had to go the (shady, illegal, underground) clinic, mention the difficulties associated with her pregnancy, request an abortion or accept the abortionist's offer thereof, and actually lie down and watch while a child was killed within her own body. Calling the woman to trial for her crimes isn't mindless hatred because she is actually at fault. Now, what do you think the sentence for this should be? If it is less than the sentence for hiring an assassin to kill your own child before your very eyes, why?

[Gx1080]

LOL, "blame the bitch" isn't the problem, the problem is the OPPOSITE, women are NEVER considered to be guilty of crimes. Is always "something else" that caused her to act that way, that's why they get lighter sentences for everything.

That's the Reps for you, all big talk, but when is time for the truth, they also put the pussy on a pedestal. tzor you suck.

[Neeeek]

If abortion is murder, then any woman getting an abortion is at least an accessory to the crime.

Technically, she'd be guilty of solicitation to commit murder, and, if the doctor accepted, conspiracy to commit murder. Which is just considered "murder", from a prosecutorial standpoint. In fact, if you already have some punishment for the doctor, you also have a punishment for the woman, as they are guilty of the same crime.

[K]

... The fact that his ogrganization pays millions to prevent that woman from even getting an ultrasound to show her it's a real human being and also pays lawyers to close down any other alternative to the practice is not important to you. The fact that these mills are often unsanitary and not equipped to handle any complications of a medical surgical procedure is also not important to you. The fact that they will never do any post operative care and leave that woman to her own devices after such a traumatic operation with far reaching consequences to mind and body is also not important to you.

Interesting way to characterize a minor outpatient medical procedure that hundreds of thousands of US women perform every year with statistically insignificant number of complications.

You can successfully strawman the argument, but strawmanning life doesn't work.

PS. Showing women a sonogram is just an excuse to lecture them about their moral choices and try to make them feel shame. First trimester sonograms look human in the way that cloud formations sometimes look human. You could literally show them a pregnant elephant sonogram and they'd never know.

[angelfromanotherpin]

The fact that they will never do any post operative care and leave that woman to her own devices after such a traumatic operation with far reaching consequences to mind and body is also not important to you.

Tzor, seriously: learn to use Google. Almost the entire first page of results for 'abortion post-operative care' is women's centers and abortion clinics offering information about post-operative instructions and services, including 24-hour hotlines and follow-up examinations included in the fee for the original procedure.

Honestly, doing even cursory opposition research will go a long way to keep you from looking like a complete fool and damaging your own cause.

[PhoneLobster]

Nope, you just want me to "convict the bitch."

Well, yes. These women are guilty of what you want to make a crime for reasons you have outlined that make that crime a murder.

So we want to know how you want to punish them.

SO TELL US ALREADY!

You sniveling coward.

Your avoidance of "it's the doctors fault 100 % of the time! is pure insanity.

Or is that your actual plan. The women will ALWAYS walk away scott free and the doctors will be punished. But only with medical license loss, not actual sentencing for actual murders.

Because that is STILL INSANITY, and looks a lot like avoidance of the real issue on your part.

You sniveling coward.

[Psychic Robot]

good work leftists