Star Wars: Saga Edition

[ckafrica]

So anyone gonna do a full on review?

[User3]

I broke down and bought a copy off Amazon.

The crazyest thing I've seen so far are the 'force training' (or somesuch) 'talent' equivalents you can pick up as a Force Adept/Jedi Knight/Sith Apprentice. One of the talents is 'regain one spent force point at the end of an encounter'.

A character can expect to get (at most) ~10 force points a level.

The talent can be taken multiple times. 5 times with each PrC, or 6 times total for a multi-PrCer. This is fucking huge, and non-Force users have no equivalent.


As usual, the Crime Lord is the coolest PrC. With two levels you can be dumping your swift actions to grant allies standard actions. With 3 you can impose a -5 penalty on checks and attacks against you by targets lower than your level. With 5 levels you can do both.

Plus, you're a crime lord.

[User3]

There's also an incredible bag of rats. A tier-1 Scoundrel talent gives a standard action when you crit. Crit specialization is difficult, but Whirlwind lets you area attack. Assuming you can crit with that, it's just about the most delicious bag of rats ever.

[virgil]

When the range between skill & defense bonuses is less than 10 points until level 20, you don't have to worry about this 'scaling' issue for the majority of your gaming. It's not like you ever go off the RNG from each other.

It's been stated before that the designers don't want you to automatically succeed all the time, and actually want to prolong battles, so having to roll a 15+ to hit the villain with anything is an expected goal. Hell, Darth Vader has to roll a natural 17 to hit himself!

This doesn't take into account the disparity at the lower levels, but I have yet to see a d20 system where the first three or four levels were worth any kind of balance in either direction. I might suggest Skill Focus have a level 5 prereq or something, but that's just a house-rule at best.

That Scoundrel talent doesn't really create a synergy with whirlwind the way you think it does. Whirlwind lets you make ONE attack roll against everyone in reach, not multiple. That scoundrel talent is just plain awesome on its own. It gives you a 5% chance to attack twice (on top of that first hit doing double damage), and once in awhile (1 in 400), you get to utterly kill someone. This is by no means something insignificant, but it's a different kind of broken from what you're thinking of.

[Crissa]

If there are 20 rats within reach of a Scoundrel with Whirlwind and that talent... That's twenty attempts to reach a target number which is normally reached once per twenty attempts.

If Whirlwind is your attack, and you make another attack, you still have the rats and the target within range...

You have to argue that Whirlwind is not an attack that Scoundrel's talent grants. If the talent lets you take varied types of attacks, why isn't Whirlwind one of them?

Is it? I don't know. Don't care, either.

-Crissa

[PhoneLobster]

It's not like you ever go off the RNG from each other.

It STARTS THE GAME off the RNG. Your force use as attack bonus is bigger than the targets entire defence score. And there is a pretty good chance you can reroll that skill check if you don't like it and don't mind being some sorta forehead alien.

It's been stated before that the designers don't want you to automatically succeed all the time, and actually want to prolong battles, so having to roll a 15+ to hit the villain with anything is an expected goal. Hell, Darth Vader has to roll a natural 17 to hit himself!

Aside from that design goal being utterly stupid and likely to create a very dull experience in extended dice rolling the fact of the matter is that auto successes ARE still a notable issue in a large part of the level range and a major part of game play, and thats just whats obvious from a brief flip through the book.

This doesn't take into account the disparity at the lower levels, but I have yet to see a d20 system where the first three or four levels were worth any kind of balance in either direction. I might suggest Skill Focus have a level 5 prereq or something, but that's just a house-rule at best.

5 levels may be the lower levels, but its a quater, or much, much, more of most campaigns.

But what would happen if skill focus did indeed only enter the game at level 5?

So back at level one your average defence score is what? 15 on a pretty damn good day, more like 12 if you aren't feeling lucky.

Your offensive bonus mind you is something your a damn fool not to invest heavily in. So at level one you've got it as a trained class skill with a maxed attribute bonus and maybe a reroll. But ignoring the reroll or other small bonuses its about +10ish. Against a HARD level one target you miss only 20% of the time.

Roll on level five and you gain skill focus. Your better defences are in about the 19 range, but often as low as about 16. Your net skill bonus now racks up to something like +17 or better without even seriously trying. AND you probably have that force talent that lets you do lower action cost force thingies so you can auto succeed twice a round.

That Scoundrel talent doesn't really create a synergy with whirlwind the way you think it does. Whirlwind lets you make ONE attack roll against everyone in reach, not multiple. That scoundrel talent is just plain awesome on its own. It gives you a 5% chance to attack twice (on top of that first hit doing double damage), and once in awhile (1 in 400), you get to utterly kill someone. This is by no means something insignificant, but it's a different kind of broken from what you're thinking of.

Do you not have to roll confirmation on criticals anymore? And does the extra standard action happen on the natural roll or on the confirmed critical?

Because if it is on the confirmed critical and 15+ to succeed IS the order of the day on your attacks you only see the more likely and less remarkable three times damage scenario something like 1/320. Which is very much NOT a talent I care about in that case...

[virgil]

Confirmation rolls for criticals were removed, so you automatically hit and do double damage on a natural 20. There's a grand total of one feat for increasing the multiplier and one talent to increase the threat range by one (that talent is a Jedi master thing for lightsabers), and the increased threat range doesn't give the natural 19 auto-hit (has to hit on its own before doing double damage).

I also think you're blowing this skill vs defense thing out of proportion. If you're a Jedi, you can use a Force skill for an attack effect, which requires a feat to actually get a power that allows this (on top of the Skill Focus feat, so you must to be a human to have this at level 1); and then you get like three attacks for the fight with this. When everything has more hit points, as some complained, three auto-hit attacks for ~4d6 aren't going to carry the whole encounter.

There might be a couple other sources of combat-worthy things for your skills (equiv to damage or Save or Die/Suck effects), but they tend to do be limited on a once-per-encounter basis or have practically a -5 or -10 penalty so only specialists have a chance.

[RandomCasualty]

1182055824[/unixtime]]
Aside from requiring a talent everytime you take it (so you can get as many as 1 dice per two levels of scoundrel but you then can't ever have anything else nice without losing out on dice) it also only seems to work on denied dex, I couldn't find anything about getting it on flanking.

So surprise only (pretty much), but you get about as punished as you possibly can be as a multiclasser to try and combine levels of scout for improved hiding, with levels of scoundrel for sneak attack stuff, with levels of jedi for the only hide while observed ability.

And you only get one attack now too right? So less opportunity to add Sneak attack to damage.

[virgil]

Meh, if you take the right feats, you can get two attacks with both having a -5 to-hit. This is best for stuff you can hit easily to begin with.

I do have to agree, their sneak attack change leaves something to be desired. Though I suppose if they have the paradigm of -2 to-hit being equal to an extra 1d8 of damage, they probably just don't want sneak attack being that significant of an investment; something you take once or twice as a nice opener, since it's not many people who play this game are going to make a "one-hit kill, all the time" build which would require rather intricate multiclassing.

[PhoneLobster]

Confirmation rolls for criticals were removed

So then you have a stunning talent that means that one out of eighty attacks deals about 50% more damage than it otherwise would. I strongly suspect that if you average that out you'll find it MASSIVELY inferior to the flat +2 to damage talent some other class offers.

It sure as hell sucks compared to Block.

I also think you're blowing this skill vs defense thing out of proportion. If you're a Jedi, you can use a Force skill for an attack effect, which requires a feat to actually get a power that allows this (on top of the Skill Focus feat, so you must to be a human to have this at level 1)

I'd be prepared to wait for level 2. In the mean time I have either force attacks that only fail on a roll of around 2 or less combined with the force point for double action force shotgun OR I have no force attacks and around +14 bonus to force use JUST for the Block talent.

When everything has more hit points, as some complained, three auto-hit attacks for ~4d6 aren't going to carry the whole encounter.

Like Artless said, stun, slam, mind trick. Force lightnings nice just because you can cackle with evil while you do full damage automatically every round (and what was it? one condition track or something?) while your weak allies actually care about dice rolls, but I suspect its not really where the gap hits its hardest.

they probably just don't want sneak attack being that significant of an investment; something you take once or twice as a nice opener, since it's not many people who play this game are going to make a "one-hit kill, all the time" build which would require rather intricate multiclassing.

Its kinda inherint in the fluff concept of sneaky backstabbing assasin that those surprise attacks actually KILL the target.

Going "ahahaha, I dedicated my lifetime of training for like six or more levels, carefully arranged a situational setup where stealth could be an option and then succeeded at additional rolls for sneakyness and junk so I could deliver this terrible blow with +30% damage or something dumb like that and that extra thirty percent is like what? a sixth of what might take down a first leveler...ahahaha!!!"

Thats an example of the system failing to deliver on a fairly straightforward archetype, that sort of attack from that sort of character should damn well at the very least hurt as it is you may as well build a sneaky anything else other than a scoundrel and you'll hit harder with or without surprise.

[virgil]

I don't know if it's the system 'failing' to deliver, when the designers don't want an archetype that does drastically more damage simply because their target is flanked. While you can do a fair amount of damage with a few builds, they actively want combat to last awhile if you're going against an equal level opponent; and the builds that can really put the hurt on someone require heavy character resources/dedication, and you still can't auto-kill that BBEG.

Yes, Jedi mind trick can still take someone out of a fight, but they break out of it as soon as they're hurt; and I never disagreed with the idea of Jedi being better than everyone else. At least it's not as bad as the prior edition, and it's definitely not on the same scale of the vast majority of systems where casters auto-win.

I can create something that's damn close to a rogue if you want...ponders...

Scoundrel 1, Scout 1, Soldier 5
Minimum Ability Score: Str 13
Attack Bonus: +5
Skills: Deception, Perception, Stealth
Feats: Skill Focus (Stealth, Deception), Mighty Swing
Talents: Dastardly Strike, Improved Stealth, Devastating Attack (Force Pike), Melee Smash, Stunning Strike
Equipment: Force Pike
Effect: You're level 7 where if you sneak up, hit them flat-footed, and if a 3d8 exceeds their (Level+Con mod), they move four steps down the condition track (-10 to all actions & defense/AC). If you're not being sneaky, then they move down three steps if a 2d8 exceeds their (Level+Con mod).

What, you think it's bad you can't do this at level one or two? Well, it's practically an insta-kill for one bloke, two if you take cleave and he's next to a friend; and you don't need to take anything else to meet the standard of the archetype, so further levels either allow you to broaden your ability or make you a freakin' shadow.

[User3]

You're right, the bag of rats doesn't work.

1182198573[/unixtime]]
Effect: You're level 7 where if you sneak up, hit them flat-footed, and if a 3d8 exceeds their (Level+Con), they move four steps down the condition track (-10 to all actions & defense/AC). If you're not being sneaky, then they move down three steps if a 2d8 exceeds their (Level+Con).

What, you think it's bad you can't do this at level one or two? Well, it's practically an insta-kill for one bloke, two if you take cleave and he's next to a friend; and you don't need to take anything else to meet the standard of the archetype, so further levels either allow you to broaden your ability or make you a freakin' shadow.

How often is 3-24 damage going to exceed Con+Level? At low levels it'll probably work about half the time, but as usual it doesn't scale.

Against a level 7 character, you've probably got to roll around 12+7 = 19 damage minimum. 8^3 = 512 possibilities, and there are 66 rolls which will make it (I think).
13% doesn't sound so impressive.

[virgil]

My bad, I meant (level + Con mod). That 3d8 is a bare minimum, and goes to 3d8+2 at strength 14, and you get another +1 every two levels after that. This doesn't even count feats or having higher than Str 14.

[PhoneLobster]

1182198573[/unixtime]]I don't know if it's the system 'failing' to deliver, when the designers don't want an archetype that does drastically more damage simply because their target is flanked. While you can do a fair amount of damage with a few builds,

As you go on to say they just don't want anyone to do anything good. But dedicated stabby scoundrels cop it REAL bad.

Yes, Jedi mind trick can still take someone out of a fight, but they break out of it as soon as they're hurt; and I never disagreed with the idea of Jedi being better than everyone else. At least it's not as bad as the prior edition, and it's definitely not on the same scale of the vast majority of systems where casters auto-win.

It is however a failure on the designers part in their attempt to utterly emasculate the jedi and the entire system. Which, considering how much they did emasculate the rest of the system leads to a certain degree of imbalance.

I can create something that's damn close to a rogue if you want...ponders...

Scoundrel 1, Scout 1, Soldier 5
Minimum Ability Score: Str 13
Attack Bonus: +5

Right lets consider this. To be this assassin you first of all multiclass out your yin yang.

You've copped 2 out of the only 3 possible losses of BAB in pretty much the whole dang system, which doesn't hurt much but does make you feel very sad, especially if those were your first two levels, and odds are scout probably was at least the very first one, just for the skills.

And until you started taking soldier levels you sucked. Improved stealth, and the skills of course, was pretty much a requirement for the theme of the build but on its own does very little you care about.

You only ever dipped scoundrel for dastardly strike, which you barely use or notice, and frankly an extra level of soldier for better BAB, HP and an extra feat would have been better. Your soldier talents do far more for dealing debilitating surprise damage, only they don't give a flying shit about surprise.

Sneak attack dice never played a part because you just plain don't care about them, "I hit it harder" feats and soldier talents are objectively superior in all respects.

Effect: You're level 7 where if you sneak up, hit them flat-footed, and if a 3d8 exceeds their (Level+Con), they move four steps down the condition track (-10 to all actions & defense/AC). If you're not being sneaky, then they move down three steps if a 2d8 exceeds their (Level+Con).

What Catharz said, your average result is 13.5 you are rolling 3 dice, you are going to be fairly lucky to exceed a result of 16.

But, 1) Are you properly accounding for your devestating strike thingy? Shouldn't there be a -5 to threshold in there somewhere.

2) Maybe sneak attack IS the way to go with that sort of build, or failing that the specializations that add flat damage bonuses of 1 or 2 because if you care about threshold you also care about raw flat damage per strike...

3) Why skill focus deception? Why not skill training force use, another feat for skill focus force use, AND another feat for force powers (I think you just barely have the feats to do it by that level too), and a level of jedi instead of, oh, maybe scout, for hide in plain sight using mind trick and stabbyness with a light saber instead of a big neon spear.

4) Wait, is that how the condition track works, I only skimmed it but it looked to me like there were 10 steps at -1 each... If its only 4 steps to -10 force stun fvcking rocks, doulbe force per round level one jedi with stun suddenly looks really REALLY crazy.

And this is why I haven't done a full review I hate trying to do this without a book. I think the LGS had a damaged copy, maybe I'll see if I can pick it up at sale prices...

What, you think it's bad you can't do this at level one or two? Well, it's practically an insta-kill for one bloke, two if you take cleave and he's next to a friend; and you don't need to take anything else to meet the standard of the archetype, so further levels either allow you to broaden your ability or make you a freakin' shadow.

Unless cleave is also different or your strike is REALLY an instant kill, rather than 'practically' then its not going to hit the extra guy is it?

And you can spend the rest of your career taking sneak attack dice from scoundrel levels to slowly catch up your average surprise damage to the ever growing threshold of your opponents. Or you could hunt for all the stacking +1/+2 damage talents and the like you can find to do the same thingwithout the surprise requirement.

Heck if you can EVER get yourself into jedi knight (which you almost can't ever do by that point) you can work on being good at 2 weapon fighting so that about 3 or four feats, a talent or two and about 13 levels later you can do TWO strikes for double to condition track advancement (assuming you also magically deal with ever escalating threshold at the same time that COULD be nice)... Of course stun jedi were doing double condition track advancement back at level one...

My bad, I meant (level + Con mod). That 3d8 is a bare minimum, and goes to 3d8+2 at strength 14, and you get another +1 every two levels after that. This doesn't even count feats or having higher than Str 14.

So then that IS accounting for the threshold reduction talents you pull out of soldier to try and make an assassin scoundrel work. That makes life better, a little bit, but still not great.

But some little birdy was telling me that strength to damage is now 2*bonus with two handed weapons, and surely that giant crackling pole arm being wielded by your 'stealthy' assassin is wielded two handed?

[User3]

1182210220[/unixtime]]My bad, I meant (level + Con mod). That 3d8 is a bare minimum, and goes to 3d8+2 at strength 14, and you get another +1 every two levels after that. This doesn't even count feats or having higher than Str 14.

Right, I should have realized that. It does make your condition track thing better. Zeal FTW!

1182218497[/unixtime]]
But some little birdy was telling me that strength to damage is now 2*bonus with two handed weapons, and surely that giant crackling pole arm being wielded by your 'stealthy' assassin is wielded two handed?

Force pikes are about three feet long.

But yes, you're probably TWFing with them. Do damage condition track effects proc when it's on the stun setting?

[Artless]

1182218497[/unixtime]]

4) Wait, is that how the condition track works, I only skimmed it but it looked to me like there were 10 steps at -1 each... If its only 4 steps to -10 force stun fvcking rocks, doulbe force per round level one jedi with stun suddenly looks really REALLY crazy.

The Condition track has 5 steps, the first four going in a -1,2,5,10 fashion. The last condition is Helpless, which is the reason Stun kicks the shit out of everything. With two uses, you have rendered your target retarded. Seriously, Stun was the first thing I noticed in the force power list that was crazy-delicious.
Every 5 points you go over their defense, you move them another step down the track. Stick a fork in them; they're done.

But Dastardly strike was also pretty snazzy; I don't recall the exact mechanic, but moving people down the condition track is a lot more efficient than dealing damage.

Makes me wonder why they even bothered with HP anyway.

[virgil]

They bother with HP still because not every attack actually moves you down the track, and you can spend three consecutive swift actions to go up one step on the condition track. Note, these consecutive can either be one swift action each round for three rounds, or you can convert your move & standard actions into swift actions to do it faster. Eventually, you just run out of HP, and you go down anyway, but it's an extra thing to wear you down on top of the condition track.

You seem to be looking at the build of D&D rogue as something that MUST be replicable in roughly its own mechanics in order to be a valid system, which is a problem I don't think exists.

Yes, my assassin has to multi-class (Scoundrel first), but who cares? They didn't build a system (or want to) where you can choose whatever archetype you want and expect to have a dedicated class for such. Until I started taking soldier levels, that character stinks? You get to be behind by two points in attack bonus, which is almost nothing in comparison to your die roll.

You talked about the theme of rogue, someone who goes stealthy and takes people out. Stealth and creating distractions are necessary for this concept, as is that extra level of damage on the condition track, and getting stealthed is vital (thus Scout levels). You say that another Soldier level would be superior to making damage, which I disagree. No feat replicates Dastardly Strike, and the extra skill points are themselves worth feats; especially since the only other extra damage from a soldier talent is Weapon Specialization (+2).

I don't see the need to follow the exact build of a rogue, as Dastardly Strike scales with all levels, so I can put stuff into other areas. I will agree that sneak attack is a crappy talent to specialize in, so you take something else.

Technically, 3d8+5 with my build, and you consider your target's damage threshold (10+level+Con mod) to be 5 lower with your chosen weapon (one of the soldier talents. I simplified the calculations to what's actually happening, which is 3d8 vs (Level + Con mod); making your average result very likely to hit an equal level opponent.

[Edit]: My bad, I just now saw your comment on the double Strength modifier for two-handed melee weapons, which does change things. My minimum build only adds one extra damage, but it goes up fast once you get a real strength score. Yes, there's still probably a concern over scaling, but that disparity isn't going to happen until after level 20.

With future levels, you can keep this competitive with one or two sneak attacks. Since the threshold is only getting past you at a rate of 1 per 2 levels, so a single Sneak Attack talent should keep you competitive for about six levels on average; assuming you don't take any more Strength than 13, or any other talents or feats that increase your damage.

I chose skill focus deception for the Distract & Feint option, which just means you duck behind cover while being observed so people don't notice (the Batman effect). You could take a level in Jedi, along with two (maybe three) feats, to do similar things; but the distract/feint with Mind Trick is the exact same thing as with Deception, just with a different skill and only useable once or twice in an encounter. Also, the lightsaber doesn't have a stun setting, so it's not going to get people down the condition track as well as the force pike.

Oh, and for #4, the condition track is -1/-2/-5/-10/Unconscious. Force Stun is only a single condition level if you just barely beat their Will Defense, and another every 5 points you beat their defense. It's also got a range of 30', and can only be used a couple times a fight.

I will admit that you're not going to insta-kill for cleave to work right, my mistake. Truly taking down two people in one swoop is something the developers absolutely do not want unless those two people are mooks.

That double attack stuff is actually mediocre, and best for taking down lower level stuff. It's a full-attack action to use, and BOTH attacks take a -5 penalty. With feats, it gets better, but it's still a full-attack, so you can't move and attack with this multi-goodness. Oh yeah, if you move at half speed with that move action, your first square of movement (leaving their threatened space) does not provoke an AoO; and there doesn't really seem to be anything that stops this rule, barring pushing someone against a wall.

Then there's this, bringing a knife (or electric polearm) to a gun fight is generally a bad idea. My conceptual rogue build could do it because stealth allows him to get close, but others will have some trouble. The Jedi can do it too because he'll take the Deflect talent, which gives him a chance to get in melee in time without being plastered.

[User3]

1182224949[/unixtime]]Makes me wonder why they even bothered with HP anyway.

Probably some misguided desire to present the appearance of compatibility with D20M. The same reason that ships and droids have no Con score.


So many good things have been done already, the bad points really pop out.

As you say, there should be no HP, just the condition track and the Fort defense (for a 2-roll attack sequence of Attack and Soak). Armor should add to Fort instead of Reflex.

You don't even have to go for the true balance, elegance is enough. I don't really even mind that the handling of PC droids is all screwey.


Oh, and a 1st level force sensitive Scoundrel with a charisma of 17 can bust out a UtF bonus of 5 (trained) + 5 (Focus) + 5 (Fool's Luck) + 3 (Cha) = 18, meaning that they can throw X-wings around on a 12 or better. Heh.

EDIT: I think this is what you were trying for, Catharz, but those were some fucked up quote tags, so I could be wrong. Let me know if i need to change it. - fbmf

[PhoneLobster]

Force pikes are about three feet long.

Wait, so rather than ressembling a pike, as in a very long speary thing they instead ressemble a pike, as in the fish.

Thats rather wierd really...

[PhoneLobster]

You seem to be looking at the build of D&D rogue as something that MUST be replicable in roughly its own mechanics in order to be a valid system, which is a problem I don't think exists.

No, all I'm saying is standard d20 sneak attack is workable, if you vastly reduce the opportunity to use it then you kinda sorta need to make it deal more damage. They took away without adding, and in the mean time the system just doesn't handle stealth based assassination unless you are an ewok stun jedi with stealth specialization or something.

Yes, my assassin has to multi-class (Scoundrel first), but who cares? They didn't build a system (or want to) where you can choose whatever archetype you want and expect to have a dedicated class for such. Until I started taking soldier levels, that character stinks? You get to be behind by two points in attack bonus, which is almost nothing in comparison to your die roll.

The point is that its a soldier build that walks up and hits things, the stealth is tacked on and not at all important.

It is NOT an assassin build, it is NOT an example of how a scoundrel that isn't a shooter can ever function, it is NOT an example of how sneak attack isn't nerfed to all heck.

You talked about the theme of rogue, someone who goes stealthy and takes people out. Stealth and creating distractions are necessary for this concept, as is that extra level of damage on the condition track, and getting stealthed is vital (thus Scout levels). You say that another Soldier level would be superior to making damage, which I disagree. No feat replicates Dastardly Strike, and the extra skill points are themselves worth feats;

The extra skill points are only worth the feats if you care about using those skills, the same build without the soundrel OR the scout levels gets more HP, more BAB, better qualification for ludicrously hard to enter PRCs, and basically hits as hard or harder the vast majority of the time.

Dastardly strike is in my view pretty weak unless you can find new and exciting ways of deny dex bonus (thats the condition for using it right?) Its not worth a level dip, certainly its one of the few things you might consider on a dip for that sort of build, but its pretty damn hard to say you needed it.

I mean whats the difference? Build one you sneak up and hit some guy twice to knock him off the condition track. Build without the stealth shite and with less rolls you walk up and hit some guy twice to knock him off the condition track.

The straight soldier build of the same sort gets you closer to the feats and junk to make multiple attacks the same round with minimum penalty.

The point is that you had to jump through all these hoops, like complex multiclassing, reduced BAB, messed up PRC entry etc... trying to build an assassin character and at the end you just get to be imperceptibly different, if not inferior to the guy who just hits things hard.

I don't see the need to follow the exact build of a rogue, as Dastardly Strike scales with all levels

?

so I can put stuff into other areas. I will agree that sneak attack is a crappy talent to specialize in, so you take something else.

There exists a sneaky class called scoundrel. There exists a talent tree that is supposed to be about dealing sneaky damage. There exists a talent called sneak attack.

It is all objectively inferior to not being sneaky and unlike not being sneaky it only works on the condition that you be sneaky.

In order to build a functional sneaky damage dealing character you avoid using any of that material. To the extent that you do use it you make your character weaker.

Therefore that material and the archetype it is supposed to represent... is a failed archetype.

Its clear as day if you want to build a backstabber you are supposed to be a level 7 straight scoundrel character with what? One each of the sneaky attack tree talents and maybe some other talent. At which point you suck.

There is a large chunk of book which therefore is of less value than if they had filled the same area with hard core ewok porn.

Also, the lightsaber doesn't have a stun setting, so it's not going to get people down the condition track as well as the force pike.

Notably however it ignores damage reduction right? So maybe it helps with beating threshold, I know in a straight "I hit it" concept of a very similar nature taking at least your first level as jedi just for the saber would be a very nice idea (and maybe more for Block and stuff, a pity that build won't ever let you be a jedi knight anywhere near on time, BOOOO!).

Oh, and for #4, the condition track is -1/-2/-5/-10/Unconscious. Force Stun is only a single condition level if you just barely beat their Will Defense, and another every 5 points you beat their defense. It's also got a range of 30', and can only be used a couple times a fight.

But as a force stun specialist I am from level one or two dealing an average THREE conditions per first use and about the same or better on my second use (in the same round) knocking you off the scale. As a force use specialist in general I also have a high wisdom and rack in at least four uses per combat per feat worth of force powers. And a range of 30' is better than a range of on top of your ass with a force pike, and as brief as my look at the book has been I hear there are force use talents that can extend that range to 'system' if you want.

That double attack stuff is actually mediocre, and best for taking down lower level stuff. It's a full-attack action to use, and BOTH attacks take a -5 penalty. With feats, it gets better, but it's still a full-attack, so you can't move and attack with this multi-goodness.

Two weapon fighting however can be invested in to stupidly high levels of character resources to eventually entirely negate any penalty, or maybe even move into positive bonus territory. I'm far from certain it doesn't suck, especialy with 2* str bonus to damage for 2 handers but, well, its a serious option to consider when you want to deal twice the condition track goodness per round like the force stun user can.

Then there's this, bringing a knife (or electric polearm) to a gun fight is generally a bad idea.

Soldiers have delivery mechanisms too, like armour and large guns. Probably not as good as Block but hey, jedi still win. (Unless, maybe, you are soldier jedi with block AND armour and large guns... A pity the dip from that into something for stealth as well is so painful...)

[User3]

TWF I'm pretty sure is a trap for melee characters. Yeah, you get 2x strength but the fact is you probably won't hit anyone with it 95% of the time due to the fact that people will just withdraw away from you and then shoot you (or hit you with their melee attack and then withdraw) because unless they also invested in the feats and want to duel out in a dnd style full attack shodown they are just going to run the whole time.

[User3]

Did anyone else notice that you add half your level to damage?


Anyway, I'm trying to come up with a good tanking build, and it looks like Jedi 5/Soldier 2/Jedi Knight 10 is the way to go (note that even non-Jedi can build lightsabers with the right feats).

Stat array something like 8/15/13/10/12/14. At first level you grab Weapon Finesse (important for hitting things), Skill Focus (UTF), and Block. Your skills are UtF, Persuation, and probably Acrobatics.

Your second level is Soldier 1, and you pick up Draw Fire and proficiency in rifles or light armor. Draw Fire is what lets you tank, and it's pretty cool.

Right now you're probably fighting with a lightsaber in one hand and a heavy blaster in the other. No, you don't TWF.

Third & 4th levels, Jedi 2 & 3. Grab Acrobatic Strike for a nice +5 to hit, and Deflect. Maybe Skill Focus (persuasion).

[virgil]

Yes, a lightsaber ignores DR, which nothing really gets unless you want to go sunder-happy.

I never said that sneak attack was somehow an alright talent and not a weak one. I simply said that you could roughly create the same effect, as long as you acknowledge the fact sneak attack is less than stellar.

This guy can still run up and hit people in a non-stealthy fashion, and he's going to be +2 to-hit and about +2 damage behind. The damage bonus is mediocre for a condition damage build, and the +2 to-hit is ALL you lose.

I could try to make this character more of a stealth-monkey, but I chose to focus on the 'backstab' effect more than the stealth part. And further levels in Scout will start making him more and more stealthy.

I consider the idea of a full-attack to be an uncommon opportunity. Since only dedicated specialists can multi-attack worth a damn (against non-mooks), you can just attack/move, and there's nothing General Grievous can do to stop this. Hey look, a heavy number of your feats have suddenly been negated by a guy with legs!

Stealth works as well as it always has in d20, as does feinting, which are both options not given to a soldier (or even a Jedi). If you consider that not even an option, then it feels like you're asking for people to literally turn invisible and auto-kill equal level opponents AND THEN take a PrC that allows them to throw a couple X-Wings at their opponent.

While I agree that just saying "not everyone plays that way" & "house rules fix it" is an Oberoni Fallacy, *I* say that if you consider the absolute best build to be the ONLY OPTION in a system; and that if you're even slightly behind the best build, then you shouldn't even be playing...to be a fallacy in its own right.

[PhoneLobster]

While I agree that just saying "not everyone plays that way" & "house rules fix it" is an Oberoni Fallacy, *I* say that if you consider the absolute best build to be the ONLY OPTION in a system; and that if you're even slightly behind the best build, then you shouldn't even be playing...to be a fallacy in its own right.

You aren't saying not everyone plays that way or house rules anything.

You are saying that a bunch of sneaky character rules which I say are a complete waste of ink are actually OK because you can make a functional character build that does not use them.

Thats somewhere a little more beyond the Oberoni fallacy.

Its more like the "Look over there, a UFO!" fallacy.

[virgil]

Once again, read my second paragraph in my last response. I agree that sneak attack isn't really worth it, but the concept of a sneaky high-damage type remains.