Magic Items and Mundane People

[codeGlaze]

Quick run down of the thought process:
I'm not trying to stray into axe-sword territory, but this week I've been chewing on an item idea for an-Eberron level-ish setting.

The area my PCs are in is actually a relatively stable region that's moved slightly beyond the Iron Age feel Frank and K talked about, and more into a Renaissance/Fantasy-Punk, where (as in Eberron) magic is more common.

So I had an idea of a mage-killing black ops team. Fighters, Rogues, Rangers... etc trained to drop/teleport/sneak in, and drop a mage... or other target. They're kitted out, funding them isn't much of an issue. But here's the rub!

I had two items in mind that could either be horrible ideas or fun ideas, and that's where I turn to you guys.
Item 1:
A wand rifle / wand-bow / wand-gun... call it what ever you want. The original image in my mind was an rifle-type body with a wand loaded into the 'barrel'. Not to shoot the wand, but to act as an intermediary between non-magic users and the magic device.

Imagine a break-action rifle (or shotgun, those are more common), you crack it open, place a wand (or specially designed wand) into the barrel, a gasket or stopper prevents the wand slipping out, because wands are tapered. Crack the barrel back into place, and you're ready to go. They could be popping out magic missiles, rays, energy orbs or bolts... and once their rounds/charges are used up they could either drop the weapon, reload with a different wand, pistol whip the target, etc.

I imagine the intricacies could be as simple or complicated as the DM wants to get, and there could be all sorts of models. Pistol-like, Rifle-esque, Maybe even a revolver or gatling version that holds multiple wands in chambers, and you can just click through them for specific energy types.

Item 2:
Status Goggles:
*Status, to keep tabs on the rest of the team.
*Darkvision
*Detect Magic


I was also thinking of something akin to a spellweave body armor. Alchemically treated and enchanted fabric, to give SR, sewn around strips/plates of steel.

Is the entire thing too far fetched, ridiculous, over/under-powered? The wand guns are primarily what I've been fixated on. It seemed like a fun item to throw into the mix for melee characters.

Thoughts?

[fectin]

Item 1 is either a bit of a game changer, or it is an arbitrary bonus to UMD. Either way, what does it cost?

Item 2 is something you can build already. Again, the only reason I see to be concerned is if it's priced inappropriately.

[codeGlaze]

Item 1 is either a bit of a game changer, or it is an arbitrary bonus to UMD. Either way, what does it cost?

Item 2 is something you can build already. Again, the only reason I see to be concerned is if it's priced inappropriately.

I haven't really sat down to try and calculate costs for PC acquisition yet. I was mostly concerned with whether or not item 1 would be opening up a can of worms.

Taking a wish economy into consideration, I was considering pricing it outside of the 15,000g range. Taking into consideration that it'd have to be magically crafted to trigger a wand FOR a non-UMD proficient person. So it'd probably involve some kind of hinky system to translate pulling a trigger to setting off the wand's abilities. But then I second-guess myself, and wonder whether or not I'm over thinking that aspect of it.

One of my hang ups about it was the whole costs vs balance issue. Assuming these stocks are built on the cheap, and a normal wand could be jammed in there, fighters could get access to wands pretty easily at a relatively low level. But if the costs of building it are higher, and the wands are specially designed for the gun itself, that'd limit things a bit more, add in a semblance of control.

Then there's the mechanics aspect. Which is why I turned to these forums, actually. Because you all deliberate mechanics (existing and new) rather frequently.

[CatharzGodfoot]

How about a rifle version that skips the need for UMD and a pistol version that does not?

[PhoneLobster]

How about a rifle body with a sword in place of the barrel to act as an intermediary for users not adept in sword use.

That should be equally good for the game both axe-sword concept wise and actual game play toe stepping wise.

Players are going to make fun of you for years if you do this. And that's only half of what is wrong with it.

[codeGlaze]

How about a rifle body with a sword in place of the barrel to act as an intermediary for users not adept in sword use.

That should be equally good for the game both axe-sword concept wise and actual game play toe stepping wise.

Players are going to make fun of you for years if you do this. And that's only half of what is wrong with it.

Oh man, A rifle body, with a sword barrel, and a wand attached to it!

Plus a laser scope, and an attachment to summon a shark on each melee hit... to better bite faces off! -.-

[Leress]

How about a rifle body with a sword in place of the barrel to act as an intermediary for users not adept in sword use.

Might as well go one step further and make is so that when you pull the trigger at the right time it does extra damage.

I am also guessing that the other part of why it's a problem is the fact that people or using magic to kill mages who were probably the people who made the weapons in the first place. So your whole group are hypocrites and unless you did a lot of reworking of the magic/magic item systems your players couldn't even deal with non mage threats. Also how would you guys get healed after or during missions.

[PoliteNewb]

Oh man, A rifle body, with a sword barrel, and a wand attached to it!

Plus a laser scope, and an attachment to summon a shark on each melee hit... to better bite faces off! -.-

In response to that, nothing was appropriate except this

[codeGlaze]

I am also guessing that the other part of why it's a problem is the fact that people or using magic to kill mages who were probably the people who made the weapons in the first place. So your whole group are hypocrites and unless you did a lot of reworking of the magic/magic item systems your players couldn't even deal with non mage threats. Also how would you guys get healed after or during missions.

Eh, the actual original mini-story i had in my head whilst bored during work was a squad porting in to take out an (insert powerful evil melee stereotype here), who popped an anti magic field and chewed up two of the new squad members. I'm not saying it was a well thought out scenario, or very in depth, but the idea of the wand-rifles just sort of intrigued me.

In a setting where there are artificers and magewrights, why couldn't a magic boom-stick be created for non-UMD melee classes? Interchangeable wands would make the item more flexible... I felt it just sort of fit pretty well in an experimental magi-tech/fantasy-punk situation.

And the idea of the ops team was more story-based NPCs, not PCs. Once I started considering the weapon itself, and it's possible availability to PCs is when I started working up the courage to post the idea here for thoughts, and critiquing I suppose.

[Avoraciopoctules]

And the idea of the ops team was more story-based NPCs, not PCs. Once I started considering the weapon itself, and it's possible availability to PCs is when I started working up the courage to post the idea here for thoughts, and critiquing I suppose.

The main problem with an item that produces a powerful effect and has no special requirement to use is that it disincentivizes people with worthwhile abilities from using it. Savvy PCs might try to hire a bunch of level 1 Warriors to use the wand-guns for them.

However, some limitations will reduce the potential for this. The wand-guns should not be wishable items. More importantly, they should require some kind of maintenance from a dedicated character. If a given artificer needs to spend an hour per day keeping [Level / 3] magic blasters functional, it would be much more difficult for things to spiral out of control.

You may want to check out this class:
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50968

EDIT: Another possibility for keeping the wand guns as something low-level characters wouldn't get armed with en masse: wand guns use the character level of the user, rather than the caster level of the wand. If the user is sufficiently low level compared to the spell, Save DC is reduced.

[fectin]

Seriously, you can reproduce all the effects he's going for with a fairly high reliability just from a +10 UMD device. That costs 10K. then you hire a bunch of level 1 experts, who have at least 12 Charisma, and have max ranks of UMD. That gives you +15 to your check, against a DC of 20. succeed on 5 through 20 gives you an 80% success rate, having done it before at least once bumps that to 90%. Don't roll 1.

That is entirely wishable, fills the same roll you're looking at, and is already in the game. Everyone should choose the UMD skill over the wand guns if one is wishable and the other is not. If you place further limits on the wandgun, the UMD device becomes better as well as cheaper.

I really don't see any new problem with it, which means we have to ask about cost instead, and when it becomes available.

[Josh_Kablack]

UMD is trained only. A skill bonus item is only useful for characters who have at least one rank in UMD.

However, since you're creating custom magic items at the world-building level as the MC, there's no reason you can't just use the costs for Spell Effect,Single-Use, Use Activated to import the Caster Shell into D&D.

You could also decide that the wand-using rifles and such were intelligent items or constructs that had the relevant spellcasting /UMD themselves and followed their wielders direction for aiming. You could even get creepy here and decide that this works because the souls of renegade mages were imprisoned in such devices - thereby giving you weapons of carefully constrained malice, a societal advantage to hunting down higher level mages and a wizardly hatred of the technology that goes beyond mere jealousy.


However, since what you really want just seems to be a guns flavor to people cating spells, you could also go the refluffing route and just decide that your anti-mage strike teams comprise mages themselves and instead of spellcasting involving hand gestures (S) and miniature tarts (M), it instead involves aiming a weapon (S) and expending a specially-prepared bullet (M).

[RadiantPhoenix]

It even provokes an attack of opportunity like a ranged weapon!

[CatharzGodfoot]

The Tomes already have single-use ammo as spell effects. Restricting them to some kind of specially-made 'firearm' is not a big stretch.

[codeGlaze]

However, since what you really want just seems to be a guns flavor to people cating spells, you could also go the refluffing route and just decide that your anti-mage strike teams comprise mages themselves and instead of spellcasting involving hand gestures (S) and miniature tarts (M), it instead involves aiming a weapon (S) and expending a specially-prepared bullet (M).

I really don't have my heart set on anything specific. Other than the *idea* behind it is an intermediary item basically capable of UMD. To enable other-wise UMD-less classes access to common, typically low-powered offensive magic items.

The strike team thing was just story fluff that got me thinking about the gun idea. xD

For instance, I had images of armies eventually being equipped with something like these, eventually changing warfare. (Why bother with bullets in a world of magic?) BUT! As I said, it was just a random idea, nothing concrete. Especially since the armies could also equip their soldiers with AMFs or Magic Shields, etc... and eventually break down into melee combat as per usual. xD

I'm not stuck on replicating guns... those were just the most logical relation I made. Due to the fact that if you took a crossbow, removed the bow part, and added a holster for a wand... it's still pretty much look like a gun. So I went the extra mile of including a barrel where the wand is inserted securely.

The draw (for me) was giving melee characters a different ranged approach fitting in with the style of the setting, which is a very experimental Eberron-esque renaissance of sorts.

My reasoning behind the idea of the strike team primarily being mage-hunters, was an approach to hunting down renegade mages with out the need of contracting a more powerful mage. Buy some swank, specifically tailored, magical gear for some bruisers, kit them out, port them in, and have at it.

@fectin:
A percentage for misfire/spell failure is a pretty good suggestion.

It even provokes an attack of opportunity like a ranged weapon!

It is a ranged weapon. xD

The Tomes already have single-use ammo as spell effects. Restricting them to some kind of specially-made 'firearm' is not a big stretch.

I haven't noticed those. O_o Although my initial reasoning for wands was because they already exist, and they have multiple uses... sort of like a condensed 'clip'. xD

Sorry for the wall of text. >_>

[TheFlatline]

For instance, I had images of armies eventually being equipped with something like these, eventually changing warfare. (Why bother with bullets in a world of magic?)

Bullets don't disappear when shot through an anti-magic field.

For what you're suggesting to be a good idea, you'd have to ban anti-magic from the game. Otherwise it's a perfect defense against your gun, unless you've decided to make your guns artifact level.

[codeGlaze]

For instance, I had images of armies eventually being equipped with something like these, eventually changing warfare. (Why bother with bullets in a world of magic?)

Bullets don't disappear when shot through an anti-magic field.

For what you're suggesting to be a good idea, you'd have to ban anti-magic from the game. Otherwise it's a perfect defense against your gun, unless you've decided to make your guns artifact level.

It is a good defense, but it's not infallible. The effect eventually ends, and you can't cast FROM the field itself. Which would allow the melee characters to close, and do what they do best... bash things. xD

Bullets would be a good use against someone in an AMF, but that's a different leap in technology.... crossbow -> gunpowder-based weaponry.

I was thinking that the weapons could be created at varying costs. Lower UMD versions would be cheaper, but would be more limited in their 'ammo'... possibly even less accurate.
Higher UMDs would be more expensive, have more access to more powerful wands, and possibly better accuracy?

edit: One also has to keep in mind, these inventions aren't necessarily meant for epic level characters, considering that even in a world like eberron, most magewrights and artificers aren't all that high in level. >_>